Humans, aliens, and clones in the work of C. J. Cherryh

[Teresa Edgerton]

It seems to me that one of Cherryh's great themes revolves around the question: What does it mean to be human?

She does this by contrasting human and alien societies (in her SF), by contrasting characters who are human with those who merely look human but are quite obviously not (in her Fantasy and Science Fantasy) ... and then there are the azi.

I'm interested in hearing how other readers think this theme plays out in specific books and/or series of hers, also, which are the favorite non-human or quasi-human characters.

I've already mentioned elsewhere that the iduve fascinate me. I would add to that the mri and (proof that I am not entirely prejudiced in favor of her humanoid races), the majat.

 

[clovis-man]

I'll venture a generic answer to your query, rather than try to provide specific examples. From the time of the Faded Sun series up to the Foreigner tales, I have most always found that the Human protagonists are lesser beings (in some measure or other) when compared to the extraterrestrial ones she has created. This makes the stories quite absorbing at times and quite frustrating at others.

I also find that this seems to be more the case with her male Humans. The female Humans generally are a force to be reckoned with. A gross over-simplification, I'm sure. I'll go duck for cover now.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

From the time of the Faded Sun series up to the Foreigner tales, I have most always found that the Human protagonists are lesser beings (in some measure or other) when compared to the extraterrestrial ones she has created.

I wouldn't say that they are lesser beings, but they certainly seem to be in over their heads a lot of the time. Which, I suppose, anyone would be if thrust into an alien society, frequently with little or no preparation.

It can be frustrating to read, as they go blundering about (and the reader often knows no more than they do what they've done wrong). But at least this kind of immersion allows the human character to experience an alien culture rather than just observe it.

 

[Connavar]

I agree with Clovis about Faded sun, i think its interesting how noble,pure Mri are and the humans are more cold,heartless,greedy,many other bad things. They are almost like Regul. Not Duncan but his Boss that are use making people like Duncan go into their deaths.


Sometimes it can be frustrating to see how hopeless the humans seem. They dont seem to have any good qualities except Duncan,one or two other pro Mri humans. Im thinking about the first book and half the second which i have read.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I think its interesting how noble,pure Mri are.

The kel, at least, are mercenary soldiers who don't care what side they fight on. Moreover, the mri are just as ignorant of humans as the humans are of them, and prefer it that way. They are narrow and bigoted, and they repress independent thinking within their own culture. I think it's a large part of Cherryh's excellence as a writer that she can take characteristics and actions that we would consider deplorable in a human being, and make us see how right and honorable they are for an alien race.

But I will admit that all the mri we see are better mri than most of the humans are human beings.

 

[Connavar]

Frankly most of the Mri i saw in the first book are Kel.

Even the ignorant, Sen,the mother leader (cant remember name) had their codes. Their loyalty to the Regul despite what they did to Mri was very honorable. Something that humans never would do to a master like the Reguls.


I like reading the good and bad side of Mri,Kel but i think the humans should have more Duncans. More good people to show we arent all greedy,power hungry.

Maybe in her other books the humans will seem more interesting than the Aliens. Mri,Regul are much more interesting than the humans.

In Downbelow Station the parts i have read have many more humans than aliens so far atleast. The cultures seem to be different humans. Will be interesting to see what happens there.

I think i need to read a book of hers next that are less military SF and not like Faded Sun series. Want to read more culture,political,aliens,humans interaction based minus the action.

Her Foreigner series look to be what im looking for according to wiki.

 

[clovis-man]

Her Foreigner series look to be what im looking for according to wiki.

Well, Conn, you'll certainly get plenty of politics in the Foreigner series. But I'm afraid that humans, again, don't always leap in to save the day, relying on the indigenous characters instead. But you'll also get acquainted with one of Cherryh's most interesting characters, Ilisidi, the Aiji-dowager.

Teresa, I probably shouldn't have used the term "lesser beings". "Hapless" might be a better phrase.

 

[Vetch]

For those who like humans to be ... on top of things: there are many Cherryh books without any aliens. (A/U)

But like Teresa said about the mri - I found them, well cool, but I didn't admire them that much, because they seem to exist solely for warfare, and their strict code is a reason for them not changing during all those endless years.
What I love about Cherryh: some people find that great and amazing; others, like myself, prefer a more pragmatic, peaceful society. Cherryh herself tells stories without telling us whom to admire.

 

[Connavar]

A/U isnt that Cyteen U, Downbelow Station and co ?

I dont need humans to be on top of things.

I like her aliens cultures much more. Hapless humans are good way to put it.

I think i will explore her other series before to decide which to read start to finish. She has so many types of stories. Interested in her Heroic Fantasy with the female hero too.

 

[Vetch]

Yea, sorry, A/U means Alliance/Union. Tripoint, Cyteen, Downbelow... even the Chanur series is part of that universe. In which the most alien is--- the human.

 

[Connavar]

For those who like humans to be ... on top of things: there are many Cherryh books without any aliens. (A/U)

But like Teresa said about the mri - I found them, well cool, but I didn't admire them that much, because they seem to exist solely for warfare, and their strict code is a reason for them not changing during all those endless years.
What I love about Cherryh: some people find that great and amazing; others, like myself, prefer a more pragmatic, peaceful society. Cherryh herself tells stories without telling us whom to admire.

You describe Kel as Mri too. Kel was for warfare. Mri was for not changing their culture. Which is a thing i liked. Many people in human history has had that quality. To believe in your way of life.

Not every Mri was about going to war and die with Honor. There were other caste.

I mean the reason they died so many was that they were too loyal to their codes and masters. Thats hardly a bad thing. Maybe if you are human but not to Mri. I think their strict belief in their culture was something i admired. Sure they arent perfect but i like that part of them.

They did change somewhat, they had techs that others didnt know about.

It will be interesting to see how Mri survive in the second,third book which i havent read yet.

 

[Vetch]

I must admit that it's quite some time ago since I read The Faded Sun trilogy -- Kel is the warrior caste of the Mri, yes?

I agree with you that's it's good to stay true to one's culture -- presumed it is a good culture and doesn't mean eg. multilation of young girls... What I mean: to believe in one's way of life is neither good or bad, imo. It depends. Eg. I see no benefit in Europeans trying to copy the American style; but I'd appreciate it if certain cultures changed the way women are treated there. No need to totally change their ways, but they should adapt towards a more ... benign cultural identity.
But I am getting off topic -- my concerns don't apply to the Mri; I just wanted to explain why I don't think "sticking to one's ways" is always good (or always bad).
Cherryh herself doesn't write in that black and white way -- and I think it's cool that you admire the Mri's ways more than I do, and we have read the same book.

And, btw, I think the Mri are extremely cool (like the kif), I just don't think their culture and lifestyle is ... very healthy.

the reason they died so many was that they were too loyal to their codes and masters. Thats hardly a bad thing.

Here we disagree. I do think that's a bad thing.

 

[Connavar]

I dont really admire Mri, i like some of their ways. Kel is easy to like. Spartan way of life without the hole slaves thing.

I think i like their staying with their culture more cause of by own backround. Somalian culture is very tradionalist.

Not only cause of Islam but becuase of our nomadic history. As many immigrants its not easy balancing western way of life and the culture from your homeland. Going to a wedding feast where the men sit down with the groom like ancient days, the hole thing feel like it was 500 years ago.
We are much like certain Arabs like Bedouin who has retained alot of their culture minus the usual araban putting down of women....

I like their culture just as i smile when i see humans that havent lost all of their culture to modern way of life.

I agree its not very healthy their way of life but its not for us to judge.

I think Cherryh is great for not creating aliens that are perfect. Both Mri,Regul are far from perfect the usual alien you see in these kind of SF. I would find those aliens interesting if they were too perfect.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

"Hapless" might be a better phrase.

I think "hapless" pretty well describes your basic Cherryh hero. And perhaps the women do come across as more adapted/adaptable to their surroundings.

For me, the mri are fascinating because there is always that mysterious element about them. Even after three books I don't entirely understand them, they are still ... alien, and that has its glamour. At the same time, they are enough like humans in their values and morality that one can identify with them to a certain extent, and admire facets of their culture -- while still feeling frustrated by other parts of it.

But some of her other races -- the regul for instance -- are just too far from human for that sort of identification. Their thought processes, of course, can't be completely alien, or they would never be even faintly comprehensible. I think what she does is take certain aspects of human nature (while leaving out others), exaggerate them, and modify them according to an alien biology.

In that modification lies the sense of wonder; in the exaggeration I think she invites us to examine our own values.

 

[Connavar]

I think "hapless" pretty well describes your basic Cherryh hero. And perhaps the women do come across as more adapted/adaptable to their surroundings.

For me, the mri are fascinating because there is always that mysterious element about them. Even after three books I don't entirely understand them, they are still ... alien, and that has its glamour. At the same time, they are enough like humans in their values and morality that one can identify with them to a certain extent, and admire facets of their culture -- while still feeling frustrated by other parts of it.

But some of her other races -- the regul for instance -- are just too far from human for that sort of identification. Their thought processes, of course, can't be completely alien, or they would never be even faintly comprehensible. I think what she does is take certain aspects of human nature (while leaving out others), exaggerate them, and modify them according to an alien biology.

In that modification lies the sense of wonder; in the exaggeration I think she invites us to examine our own values.

I thought The Regul was much more human than Mri. The greeed,power hunger,the need to conquer to make money.

Otherwise Regul was so alien.

Early in the book i feared Mri would become more human like cause how they look humanoid. Thats not uncommon with this kind of aliens.

About their values, clovis had it right when he compared them to Samurai culture in Faded Sun thread. The Kel being the warriors and the sen and the leader the lords. The strict coded and the holy way they looked at the mother leader.

I actually thought Niun as Ronin when he lost his fellow Kel and his masters and his chance to prove himself as a warrior.

 

[Vetch]

As many immigrants its not easy balancing western way of life and the culture from your homeland. Going to a wedding feast where the men sit down with the groom like ancient days, the hole thing feel like it was 500 years ago.
We are much like certain Arabs like Bedouin who has retained alot of their culture minus the usual araban putting down of women....

The Mri are moulded after bedu (right word?) culture, aren't they?

I like their culture just as i smile when i see humans that havent lost all of their culture to modern way of life.

I agree its not very healthy their way of life but its not for us to judge.

Hm, might be much more healthy than the western way of life. As I said: if a way doesn't include injustice to parts of the culture there is no reason to give it up for 'modern civilisation'. So in the end I think I agree with you about 'sticking to one's culture'. It is healthy.

I think Cherryh is great for not creating aliens that are perfect. Both Mri,Regul are far from perfect the usual alien you see in these kind of SF. I would find those aliens interesting if they were too perfect.

Me2. I also like what you write about Regul behaving more human than the Mri.

 

[Connavar]

I have rarely read aliens i have found as fascinating as Regul. I liked reading hole their rank order and look on younglings. Their unnatural fear of Mri even when they werent many left.

The Mri was very bedu. Their tribal,nomadic was clear where it came from.

Its funny i was reading a political spy book a couple of days ago where someone mentioned the Bedu in their areas in the 1940's it was thought better to leave them be
cause they dont care about who invades or about anything but their way of life.

I thought about Faded Sun and Mri who didnt care who invaded their current planet and stayed away from the humans so they can stick to their culture without too much change.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I liked reading whole their rank order and look on younglings.

But this is why, to me, they are so very alien. (There are humans who are so callous toward children, but they're an anomaly.) Also the fact that they don't know whether they will be male or female until they reach maturity. The whole question of gender is very central to human cultures and human thought processes, and yet among the regul anyone can grow up to be either gender.

And not all humans are greedy, power-hungry, bent on acquiring money. Those aren't central human characteristics. In fact, I would say most humans aren't that way. The ones who are are just more visible.

 

[Connavar]

But this is why, to me, they are so very alien. (There are humans who are so callous toward children, but they're an anomaly.) Also the fact that they don't know whether they will be male or female until they reach maturity. The whole question of gender is very central to human cultures and human thought processes, and yet among the regul anyone can grow up to be either gender.

And not all humans are greedy, power-hungry, bent on acquiring money. Those aren't central human characteristics. In fact, I would say most humans aren't that way. The ones who are are just more visible.

I didnt of course say all humans are like but its part of human nature.


Of course of 6 billion there are more normal humans and not the ones that have the needs we talk about. When you see what is happening in the world today and the last centuries its not easy saying most human arent that way. Im from a country that has had democracy only 9 years beteween 1960-1960 in the last two centuries. The rest being of colonisation,neverending civil wars. I might be more cynical with my world view....

I just think CJ Cherryh did well to show how humans in that future started conquer to galaxy. The Reguls hunger for more power and need to take planets was humanlike to in a way.

Sure its more national system for them being that way. They dont have freedom to do what they want. All about the clan. Atleast the Regul i have seen so far.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The rest being of colonisation,neverending civil wars.

But the people who are being exploited and colonized, the people who are fighting against oppression, they aren't greedy and power-hungry. And there are much more of them -- or it wouldn't be worth while for the rapacious ones to exploit them.

And in places where life is easier, there are plenty of people who live modest lives without ambition or greed. They just don't have such a high profile as the social climbers and the big consumers.

To consider the worst among us as somehow more representative of human nature than the people who are just content to live their lives is cynical.