Query Letter Help

[The Alamo Avenger]

Ok, I would like some advice on my query letter. I had been going under the premise of keeping it short and simple and let the writing speak for itself, like this:

Dear ______;

The year is 2056. Mankind has extended their reach to the edge of the solar system. A frozen alien life form is discovered in the Kuiper Belt region. Archaeologist Harlow Cavalear is studying the artefact when the asteroid he is on is struck by an alien craft. The ship swallows him up and whisks him out of the solar system. Elsewhere, a strange nebula-dwelling race called the Delanii are freed from their dying system. They enslave a technologically depressed but telepathic race called the Halfac. As the Delanii begin spreading through the universe it is discovered that they are after a mysterious substance known as chitin. Even though no one knows what it is or exactly what it does, they all must decide what part in the war they will play, including Harlow himself....

I chose to submit my novel, UNIVERSE OCEAN, for consideration after reading about your agency in the Novel and Short Story Writer’s Market. The manuscript, which is approximately 250,000 words long, could be classified under the Space Opera genre. Even though I am writing science fiction, I feel a sense of mystery is the most important tone in any piece of literature. The act of exploring the unknown and bringing the reader along that journey with me is why I write.

The first six pages of the manuscript along with a one page synopsis immediately follow this letter. Please notify me if you are interested in reviewing my complete text for publishing consideration. Thank you for taking the time to consider representing my work.

However, a recent rejection letter I received said she wasn't enthusiastic with the premise of my story. It got me thinking that maybe I need a better 'hook', so I thought I would offer a little more insight into my novel by beefing up the query letter a little and making it a little more personal. So I extended it to this:

Dear _________;

The year is 2056. Mankind has extended their reach to the edge of the solar system. A frozen alien life form is discovered in the Kuiper Belt region. Archaeologist Harlow Cavalear is studying the artefact when the asteroid he is on is struck by an alien craft. The ship swallows him up and whisks him out of the solar system. Elsewhere, a strange nebula-dwelling race called the Delanii are freed from their dying system. They enslave a technologically depressed but telepathic race called the Halfac. As the Delanii begin spreading through the universe it is discovered that they are after a mysterious substance known as chitin. Even though no one knows what it is or exactly what it does, they all must decide what part in the war they will play, including Harlow himself....

I chose to submit my novel, Universe Ocean, for consideration after reading about your agency in the Novel and Short Story Writer’s Market. The manuscript, which is approximately 250,000 words long, could be classified under the Space Opera genre. If asked to describe the novel in general terms, I would liken Universe Ocean to a mandala (a cosmic diagram that reminds us of our relation to the infinite, the world that extends both beyond and within our bodies and minds). Some authors write very linear plots; these do not appeal to me. Although I do not think the novel is too esoteric for the average reader, I will say that it is complex enough to keep the attention of those whose intelligence skews to the ADHD side of the population. While the book at its core is not exactly a love story, it is a story about love. All books are about something. My book is about Nothing…….or rather, it intimately details the war between Something and Nothing.

Many of the technological devices in Universe Ocean have names that are not just made up—they are often Latin or Old English phrases. If one takes the time to look up these words, they serve as a sort of Rosetta stone, giving the novel an additional layer of depth and meaning. While elements of hard science exist in the manuscript, I have a strong background in mythology and as a result the story tends to lean heavily on psycho-spiritual building blocks. While attending high school (many, many years ago) I completed a through-the-mail course at the Institute of Children’s Literature. I have been writing for as long as I can remember and am always searching for constructive criticism in order to sharpen my skills as a writer.

The first six pages of the manuscript along with a one page synopsis immediately follow this letter. Please notify me if you are interested in reviewing my complete text for publishing consideration. Thank you for taking the time to consider representing my work.

But then I found this:


http://w2.eff.org//Misc/Publications/Bruce_Sterling/paradigms_workshop_sterling.lexicon


which got me thinking that maybe in the second query letter I'm using just enough rope to hang myself with. It's not that I think my novel has any of the faults mentioned on that site (a couple of them did apply in early drafts of my MS) but I don't want to give the agent the feeling that those things COULD be in my novel.


Is the first one better, the second, or something in between? Any feedback would be welcome as I tend to way overthink these things.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

They both contain too much unnecessary information.

I chose to submit my novel, UNIVERSE OCEAN, for consideration after reading about your agency in the Novel and Short Story Writer’s Market.

An agent only cares why you decided to submit to them if the reason is somehow relevant: Your book has something in common with the books of a specific writer (or writers) they already represent, for instance. Or one of the authors on their list has suggested that you do so. Telling them where you read about their agency is so much wasted verbiage before you get to the part of the letter that tells them what they want to know.

Even though I am writing science fiction, I feel a sense of mystery is the most important tone in any piece of literature. The act of exploring the unknown and bringing the reader along that journey with me is why I write.

This needs to go.

An agent doesn't care about your philosophy of writing, or what you think makes a good book, or any of that. They want to know something about your plot and characters that will inspire them with the desire to read the rest of your submission. Instead of expanding on your first letter, get right down to business, and concentrate on making your capsule description of the book more dynamic, more interesting. This is where you hook the agent -- or you don't. As it stands, it's just a list of events written in a very flat and passive style, and it gives no hint of originality. (Your book may be the most original thing written in the last twenty years, but no one would guess it from that description.)

Tell the agent something about your main character that sets him apart from all the other xeno-archaeologists who discover alien artifacts at the beginnings of SF novels. (And by the way, is it an artifact or a life form? In one sentence it's the one, and in the next it's the other. It can't be both. Or does he go to study what he thinks is an artifact and learn that it's a frozen life form instead? ) Describe the Delanii in such a way that the agent knows they aren't just a generic race of conquerers ("a strange nebula-dwelling race" in no way distinguishes them). Describe the Halfac in such a way that the agent knows they aren't just another generic telepathic race about to be conquered.

Also, until you get to the last sentence it sounds like you are describing two different books, because you don't mention anything that ties Harlow to either the Delanii or the Halfac. When he's whisked out of the solar system, whether he ends up with the attackers, the defenders, or with another race entirely would each present a different set of challenges. Or does he spend most of the story alone on an uninhabited planet, his plot line running parallel to the other until almost the end? Each of these possibilities would be a different story, but the way you have it now it could be any of these, or something else altogether. An agent needs to know which one it is.

What all this means is that the information you give about your story and your characters is much too general. You need some specifics to bring them to life.

Of course you have to do all this in as few words as possible (especially since you are including a synopsis and sample pages) so you have to make every word count. You can begin by writing a description of the story that doesn't include some version of the verb "to be" in practically every sentence. Too many passive verbs (and "to be" is the most passive verb of all) create a deadening effect. This is, by the way, a very easy trap to fall into when you are writing in the present tense, as in a synopsis. But just by changing to more active verbs your description will already sound more interesting.

 

[ctg]

I think Teresa's comments are very informative and useful for every aspiring writer in this forum. Thank you Teresa for putting up with us.

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

I think Teresa's comments are very informative and useful for every aspiring writer in this forum. Thank you Teresa for putting up with us.

Yes, I was actually hoping to get a response from you, Teresa, as you seem like a very knowledgeable gal. And if I remember from previous posts, aren't you from the States as well? At any rate, you've given me much to think about. I will chew on your comments for a couple days and should have some time this weekend to rework my query.

As to the reason I am submitting to their agency, I just thought it was kind of standard (from the examples of query letters I've seen) to list where you found out about them. But if you think it's unnecessary than out it goes.

I can definitely see how adding some detail will make it 'pop' more. Thanks for the advice!

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

Ok, Teresa, I have fully revamped my Query letter and would love to get some follow-up feedback from you. I got rid of the BS and begin with a hook and then go right into the mini-synopsis. Let me know what you think. (Others comments are also always welcome, of course). The one thing I can think of to do at this point would be to make it a little shorter, but can't really see where that might be done.......so if you have any suggestions in that regard they would also be most welcome.



Dear ____________;

When Harlow Cavalear, an archaeologist battling sickle cell anemia, is captured by a hive-like race called the Moehtira, he becomes an unwitting participant in a universal war for the chitin, a substance that has the power to save one race or destroy them all. Thus begins the journey of one of the main characters in my 250,000 word Space Opera, Universe Ocean. While all books are about something, my book is about Nothing…….or rather, the novel intimately details the war between Something and Nothing.

Harlow is studying a frozen alien life form discovered in the Kuiper Belt when the asteroid is struck by an alien craft. He is taken aboard by a Moehtira named K’fluna. The Moehtira spend their lives exploring and mapping the universe; at the end of each Epoch they must rejoin with the HiveMother or else the change that wracks their bodies becomes fatal. However, K’fluna’s ship is damaged by the collision and she is unable to return home.

On the planet Halfa lives a race of beings that are telepathically connected to one another via an organ in the center of their chest called the vugg. Every tribe must adhere to one of the Seven Controls of Sibb Order which guides their actions on both a personal and societal level. Podnar, an assassin who carries out the machinations of a hidden eighth cabal, discovers that not only was his vugg intentionally disconnected when he was a child, but that he has been manipulated by the Control of Silence his entire life. He attempts to bring down this organization but is discovered and sentenced to a lifelong exile on a Mijx planet. Some revere the Mijx while others look down on them as non-sentient animals; all agree that they are to be left alone unless one is in a hurry to die.

Harlow and K’fluna are searching for a way to repair the Moehtira’s damaged vessel when they encounter Podnar. Harlow is enslaved by the Halfac and though he escapes not long afterward, the consequences of his captivity are far-reaching, drawing him into a war that eventually threatens the very existence of the universe. Podnar frees the Delanii, creatures living in the void of space that do not breathe oxygen and communicate through complex bursts of radiation from their fingertips. In exchange for letting them out of the nebula that has been their home for the last several millennia, they promise to help him destroy the Corsujian, a race that Podnar believes is blaspheming the Mijx by mining the chitin crystals. But little does he know that they will enslave the entire Halfac population and then force them to mine the chitin, giving the Delanii the one thing they need to begin their symphony of destruction…

The first six pages of the manuscript along with a one page synopsis immediately follow this letter. Please notify me if you are interested in reviewing my complete text for publishing consideration. Thank you for taking the time to consider representing my work.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

One problem with this is that having read it I feel like I've already read your one page synopsis. You included everything I suggested, but you used a lot of words to do it (I know it's very hard to boil things down and still get everything of importance in, but it's necessary).

Specifically:

While all books are about something, my book is about Nothing…….or rather, the novel intimately details the war between Something and Nothing.

If I was an agent, this is where I would stop reading. It's not about plot, it's not about character, it's not about setting. It immediately poses the question "who would want to read a book about Nothing?" And while that theme might work very well in the novel itself, stated baldly in a synopsis or query it's too fuzzy a concept.

When Harlow Cavalear, an archaeologist battling sickle cell anemia, is captured by a hive-like race called the Moehtira, he becomes an unwitting participant in a universal war for the chitin, a substance that has the power to save one race or destroy them all.

This is good. It tells who he is, what makes him interesting, and the biggest challenge he faces.

Thus begins the journey of one of the main characters

This is bad. For one thing it's a cliché, for another it's unnecessary, and is it even true? The last half of the sentence sounds like it's a summary of the rest of the story ... not the beginning.

Harlow is studying a frozen alien life form discovered in the Kuiper Belt when the asteroid is struck by an alien craft. He is taken aboard by a Moehtira named K’fluna.

You've already told us that he's captured by the Moehtira. At this point, we don't need the details.

The Moehtira spend their lives exploring and mapping the universe; at the end of each Epoch they must rejoin with the HiveMother or else the change that wracks their bodies becomes fatal.

This is interesting.

On the planet Halfa lives a race of beings that are telepathically connected to one another via an organ in the center of their chest called the vugg. Every tribe must adhere to one of the Seven Controls of Sibb Order which guides their actions on both a personal and societal level. Podnar, an assassin who carries out the machinations of a hidden eighth cabal, discovers that not only was his vugg intentionally disconnected when he was a child, but that he has been manipulated by the Control of Silence his entire life. He attempts to bring down this organization but is discovered and sentenced to a lifelong exile on a Mijx planet. Some revere the Mijx while others look down on them as non-sentient animals; all agree that they are to be left alone unless one is in a hurry to die.

Harlow and K’fluna are searching for a way to repair the Moehtira’s damaged vessel when they encounter Podnar. Harlow is enslaved by the Halfac and though he escapes not long afterward, the consequences of his captivity are far-reaching, drawing him into a war that eventually threatens the very existence of the universe. Podnar frees the Delanii, creatures living in the void of space that do not breathe oxygen and communicate through complex bursts of radiation from their fingertips. In exchange for letting them out of the nebula that has been their home for the last several millennia, they promise to help him destroy the Corsujian, a race that Podnar believes is blaspheming the Mijx by mining the chitin crystals.

At this point, it's sounding more like Podnar's story than Harlow's, and frankly it's more interesting than what you tell us about Harlow. Condense all this into a few sentences, or choose between Podnar and Harlow as the focus for your query letter summary.

But little does he know that they will enslave the entire Halfac population and then force them to mine the chitin, giving the Delanii the one thing they need to begin their symphony of destruction…

This is a great hook. Although I have my doubts about "little does he know" and "symphony of destruction."

Please notify me if you are interested in reviewing my complete text for publishing consideration

The agent won't be reviewing the text for publishing consideration. Also, text sounds like something you study in school, manuscript is a more comfortable word in this context.



But the biggest problem, as I see it, is that no agent is going to consider a single book of 250,000 words by a first time author. You are going to have to divide this before a publisher would buy it. So what I would suggest is that you think about where you would divide the book in two, summarize in your letter only that portion of the plot that would then become the first book (this also has the advantage of leaving you with less story to boil down in your query), as well as mentioning that it's the first part of duology. Say that the manuscript for Book One is complete at (however many words it will be after the division), and that you will be happy to send it to the agent on request.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

Wow. Your remarks are very insightful, Teresa. Some a bit harder to swallow than others, but immensely useful nonetheless. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me.

I am already at work on another revision based on your comments. However, I would question one thing.....

But the biggest problem, as I see it, is that no agent is going to consider a single book of 250,000 words by a first time author. You are going to have to divide this before a publisher would buy it.

Is it really that unlikely for an agent to consider a book of this length by an unpublished author? Would they see the word count and immediately reject it? Wouldn't it be better to give the prospective agent the whole plot upfront and then if they like it let them make the decision as to whether or not to cut the book in half before going to a publisher with it?

It's not that I mind making the changes--it's an idea I actually toyed with a while back and wouldn't take that long to do. But if SF novelist Hannu Rajaniemi can get a three book deal from just twenty four double spaced pages of an unfinished manuscript, then why couldn't a first time author get a 'lengthy' novel published, especially considering that word count is a standard for the genre? Granted, Hannu's example is the exception to the rule, but I think you get my point.

Or maybe the agent would prefer to make some cuts to bring it down to a smaller, single volume....

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

It's not the agent's job to suggest cuts or revisions; in all but the rarest cases they want a manuscript that is ready to send out to publishers. It would definitely be a good idea to let the agent know that Book Two is already written, but presenting one big manuscript that needs dividing and restructuring is not.

(And 250,000 words is not standard for the genre. It's enormously long even for an author with a track record, let alone a brand new author.)

Yes, there is a tiny, tiny chance that you're the next Hannu Rajaniemi, and an agent of John Jarrold's stature would instantly fall in love with what you've written regardless of the length ... but is that what you want, a miniscule chance that an agent wouldn't give you a vague, "Query me again when you have a manuscript of publishable length?" Or do you want to materially improve your chances of an agent being genuinely interested at once?

It's good to have confidence in what you've written, but you should also have reasonable expectations.

Or maybe the agent would prefer to make some cuts to bring it down to a smaller, single volume....

But surely this is the last thing you want an agent to do? Why invite that kind of suggestion?

 

[ctg]

Please, TAA don't get upset because of Hannu's deal. He's an exception on the rule that binds us rest together. Read his work from the Interzone and you will see why JJ is so adamant to present him. We're not as talented as he is, and even then, there's still the risk factor in the play, as he might never get to the 100 000 mark, or the public might not buy his work. So, please do what you need to do. Make shorter and punchier query letter that only encapsulates the essential from your work and send it out. In a meantime, cut your story to be between 100 000 - 150 000 mark.

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

but is that what you want, a miniscule chance that an agent wouldn't give you a vague, "Query me again when you have a manuscript of publishable length?" Or do you want to materially improve your chances of an agent being genuinely interested at once?

Very well said, Teresa. Although not new to writing, I have much to learn about the publishing side of things. I was not trying to say that I am the next Hannu, only that anything is possible. And yes, I do need to temper my expectations in reality, that is why I'm asking for your insight. I appreciate everyone's comments. I shall be making some revisions and "keep moving forward!"

Oh, and just out of curiosity, is there a website anywhere that you can go to that will tell you what the word count of a specific published novel is?

 

[ctg]

Don't know what you really mean, but the rule on the published books is 400 words per page. 250 000 words would be roughly around 625 novel length pages or a one very thick book.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Don't know what you really mean, but the rule on the published books is 400 words per page.

There really isn't a rule. Many of the books on my shelves have 38 lines per page, which would come in around 400 words, but I just counted the lines in the trade paperback editions of The Hidden Stars and A Dark Sacrifice and they're 32 and 30 lines respectively. They look like big books, at over 400 pages, but ADS is only 115,000 words including the appendices.

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

Ok, then I would have to disagree with this statement:

(And 250,000 words is not standard for the genre. It's enormously long even for an author with a track record, let alone a brand new author.)

Based on the info above, Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep would be roughly 240k words, Peter F Hamilton's Pandora's Star would be 395,200 words--and that is only half of the story. Absolution Gap by Alastair Reynolds is 300,800 and that is only one book in a trilogy. Granted, each one of that last series can stand by itself (or at least the first volume could), but there you've got about a 300k novel.

So how can you possibly tell me that 250k word count is long for the genre?? Granted, maybe publishers don't want to take on that large of a book from an unproven author because of cost, but I do not think it's excessive for the genre....

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

So how can you possibly tell me that 250k word count is long for the genre??

Because all of those books are exceptionally long. The fact that they are enormous doesn't change the fact that the large majority of the SFF books being published right now are between 100,000 and 160,000. (And if you don't believe me, ask John Jarrold.)

Also, Peter F. Hamilton's books have been coming out since the early '90s, Vernor Vinge was first published in the '70s, and while Alistair Reynold's was first published in 2000, Absolution Gap was his fourth book. So none of these are new authors.

You should also keep in mind that science fiction is not doing as well now as it has in the past. It's harder (but not impossible, of course) to interest a publisher in an SF book, just at the outset. The fact that you're new is another minus, and the length of the book still another. How many do you want to start out with, before an agent even starts to read the book?


On a purely mercenary note (and I know you're not thinking of that right now, but it's a little extra inducement to divide the book): You don't get paid more for a big book. If you divide it in half, and if you sell it, you get two advances, not one.

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

Because all of those books are exceptionally long. The fact that they are enormous doesn't change the fact that the large majority of the SFF books being published right now are between 100,000 and 160,000. (And if you don't believe me, ask John Jarrold.)

Also, Peter F. Hamilton's books have been coming out since the early '90s, Vernor Vinge was first published in the '70s, and while Alistair Reynold's was first published in 2000, Absolution Gap was his fourth book. So none of these are new authors.

You should also keep in mind that science fiction is not doing as well now as it has in the past. It's harder (but not impossible, of course) to interest a publisher in an SF book, just at the outset. The fact that you're new is another minus, and the length of the book still another. How many do you want to start out with, before an agent even starts to read the book?


On a purely mercenary note (and I know you're not thinking of that right now, but it's a little extra inducement to divide the book): You don't get paid more for a big book. If you divide it in half, and if you sell it, you get two advances, not one.

Once again, I appreciate your insight, Teresa. I have found a good half-way point where I can cut the manuscript in two. Right now I am trying to decide between two options. One, I could just make a clean cut down the middle. Or the second option, I have two main characters (Harlow and Podnar) that start out apart, cross paths, then go their separate ways. I am thinking of completely removing Harlow's thread from the first book and using that to start out the second book. This would place more emphasis on Podnar's story in the first book (which it was sort of leaning that way anyway). Since Harlow is more involved at the end of the novel, focusing on his story at the beginning of the second book would also put more congruency into his story. Being the sort that never does things the easy way, I am going to try the second option as it seems to fit the format of a Duology better.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Of course I haven't read the book, so I don't really know, but based on what you describe in the query letter, beginning with Podnar and his story does seem like the right decision, since his appears to be the more intriguing storyline.

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

Ok, after messing around a bit, I decided just to split the story in half. I found that if I tried to take out all of Harlow's thread from the first half, it made the novel lose a lot of it's 'flow.' So the first book will still be about Harlow and Podnar, but I have focused solely on Podnar for the purposes of the query.

Dear ___________;

When Podnar, a Halfac assassin, botches an assignment and ends up conversing with his target, he learns that not only are his dreams much more than just the restless ramblings of his subconscious, but that he has been manipulated for most of his life; he sets off seeking revenge and freedom, but ends up only becoming the pawn of a much larger universal game.

On the planet Halfa lives a race of beings that are telepathically connected to one another via an organ called the vugg. Though there are dozens of tribes, each must adhere to one of the Seven Controls of Sibb Order. Podnar discovers that his vugg was disconnected by the Control of Silence when he was a child. He attempts to bring down this organization but is caught and sentenced to a lifelong exile on Keeneth, a Mijx planet. Some revere the Mijx while others look down on them as non-sentient animals; all agree that they are to be left alone unless one is in a hurry to die. Their eyes, which are shed as they age, are referred to as chitin crystals.

The HiveMother is a planet in her own right; Her children are the Moehtira, creatures that spend their entire lives mapping the universe. They must rejoin with Her at the end of each Epoch to avoid the fatal change that wracks their bodies. Podnar makes his way off Keeneth and tricks the HiveMother into helping him free the Delanii, creatures living in the void that do not breathe oxygen and feed off gamma rays. Though they promise to help him destroy the Corsujian, a race that he believes is blaspheming the Mijx, the Delanii discover that they are able to control the Halfac through the vugg and use Podnar to enslave his people and then force them to mine the chitin. However, a small group of Halfac avoids being captured. Pedn Swage, their spiritual leader, is determined to save their people. Unfortunately Provost Toak Roe does not share the same goal, and soon the two are locked in a battle of wills for the fate of their people while the other races in the universe succumb one by one to the Delanii’s power….

The first six pages of the manuscript along with a one page synopsis immediately follow this letter. Universe Ocean is Book One of a Duology, which is complete at approximately 133,500 words. (Book Two, The Face of Nothing, is also complete.) I would be happy to send the rest of the manuscript upon request. Thank you for taking the time to consider representing my work.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[ChrisBfla]

Hello:

Take a look at an agency in San Diego, Zak and Company. Seach the web for them. They include a knock out cover letter on their site. Once I knew what agents or publishers were really looking for, I retooled my letter to reflect their suggestions.

Chris

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I'm afraid it's still too long. You need to condense the first three paragraphs down into one. I know it's hard, but consider the summary in the query letter a writing exercise the agent sets you, to see how much vital information you can get into a few sentences.

One way of approaching this is to describe the entire plot in a single sentence. That sentence should include who the main character (or group of characters) is, something about him (or them), the main challenge or difficulty -- then the crisis or turning point, and what comes of it.

I'll give you an example:

Frodo the Hobbit and a fellowship of the free peoples of Middle Earth set out to destroy the One Ring of Power; when circumstances divide them, each member of the fellowship must find the courage to fight against the dark lord Sauron in his own way.

OK, so that's not a fabulous piece of writing, but it does condense 1000+ pages into one sentence, with semicolon.

Once you have your sentence you have the essence of your novel, the information that you must tell. Then you expand on it, adding in additional information that you think will hook the agent, and polish it until you have one perfect paragraph.

If you start small and add on, it's easier than starting with something long and trying to cut it down.

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

I have a quick question. [FONT=&quot] While attending high school (many, many years ago) I completed a correspondence course at the Institute of Children’s Literature. And in my senior year I received a partial college scholarship as a result of a fantasy story that appeared in my school’s paper. Are those things worth mentioning in my query letter? They say you are to write a short writer's bio, but other than that I don't have any publishing credits to list. Since (A) neither of those things are directly related to science fiction, and (B) that was so long ago, should they be left out? [/FONT]