Pride or self-respect - what's the difference?

[Precision Grace]

Pride or self-respect - what's the difference?
Hello

I would appreciate some help in building my character (not My character, but the personality of my fictional character) and I have some questions about differences in perceiving personality traits.
The answers would have to be applicable to writing, i.e. something a character might say or the way they might be described.

So here are some main ones, but add your own if you wish:

• How do you distinguish between humility/humbleness and lack of self esteem?

Example: "I hope my lack of knowledge on this subject would not make you think badly of me and put you off from replying."

- what does that sound like to you?

• What is the difference between pride and self-respect?
• What is the difference between aloof and shy?
• What is the (outward) difference between laziness and listlessness caused by depression?
• What is the difference between arrogance/haughtiness and self-confidence?

Any examples are gratefully received but will not be returned to sender even if postage is included.
Thanks

 

[Saeltari]

Here are views on the first two.

Pride is more of a sense of self empowerment based on others while self-respect is a sense of self empowerment based on ones self.

Aloof is more a belief that one is better and does not need to mingle with those of less intrinsic value while shy is a more the act of one who is uncomfortable mingling or does not have a strong sense of self worth.

 

[HareBrain]

Example: "I hope my lack of knowledge on this subject would not make you think badly of me and put you off from replying."



- what does that sound like to you?

Definitely feels like lack of self-respect to me. I think it's the "not make you think badly of me" which is out of place in what otherwise seems a fairly businesslike sentence.

 

[HareBrain]

Here's a couple of thoughts on behaviour etc:

What is the difference between aloof and shy?

Eyes. An aloof person might make eye-contact without difficulty, and would look away at normal speed; an extremely shy person might find it difficult and might look away quickly, usually downwards. If the aloof person chose not to make eye-contact, they would tend to keep their eyes up; again, a shy person would tend to keep them down.

What is the difference between arrogance/haughtiness and self-confidence?

Smiles. Arrogance usually comes from a deep lack of self-confidence or other insecurity; the self-confident person would be much more likely to give a genuine smile, the arrogant person would tend to have a slightly unhappy or worried look to them.

 

[Precision Grace]

That's great. Thank you!!

Now, how to make a shy person with unrecognized self confidence issues not seem aloof and stupid?

Excellent, keep them coming guys, the more examples I get, the better picture I have of what to do (and not-do).



PS. I have never EVER been called shy in my whole entire life but when I talk to people I cannot maintain eye contact for long and tend to look away or downwards. Or, alternatively, for reasons unknown to myself, I sometimes manage to stare at people until they are so uncomfortable that they have to look away. I'm not aloof either, although I have been called that. The important thing here is for me to make my character believable in their own way and not use my own experience (too much)

PPS. On the plus side, I can out-stare my cats.

 

[Boneman]

I do like harebrain's thoughts. Perhaps the best way to sort those out is actually regarding ego.... Extreme example: Mother Teresa - humility and humbleness, but lack of self-esteem? Probably it never occured to her to have any, she just got on with it.......

When I was doing martial arts it was put that the innate self-confidence one develops stops one from being arrogant...... I think you can have self-confident people who are loud and brash, and self-confident people who are quiet and 'self-assumed'.

If you wanna get into this more then look up Maslow's hierarchy. It's about the journey to self-realisation, actualisation. For some reason it's relevant in education, so I had to study it recently....

 

[Kith]

I would say the difference between shy and aloof is confidence; an aloof person is choosing, for whatever reason, to not be particularly interested or bothered by the situation they're in or the people around them. They don't have a desire to be involved in (some) social situations, and probably don't really care if they are viewed as distant. They're self-assured.

Shyness, on the other hand, comes down (in part, I suppose) to being very self-aware and worrisome about what others think; not being sure of yourself or wanting unnecessary attention etc. This is all generalisation, of course, but a shy person might be flustered by a sudden question, whereas an aloof person wouldn't. In a socially stressful situation, a shy person might blush, stutter, aplologise, sweat etc. Even if they don't recognise their own lack of self-confidence, it would probably be apparant (at least in part) to others. It depends on the degree of shyness and who your POV character is.

Is your character male or female? Because I think social expectation also has an impact on behaviour - I think it's much easier (as in acceptable) for a girl to be shy than a guy in our society, so a guy might try some false bravado or something (acting aloof). I dunno (since I am female myself). I AM a shy person, though. I've been called aloof on first impression, which is why I think POV matters.

Oh dear. I don't think I've helped at all! Nevermind.

 

[Precision Grace]

Did I mention that my character is female and that I could do with some examples?


I do get the theory behind it all but lets face it, people tend to perceive certain things in certain way based on their own personal biases - there is a lot of transference involved in how we assess motives of others. Here, I'm trying to get to the most common denominator for the shy/not very self confident projection and see what that looks like to most people.

Also, does it matter if the person in question is good looking or not and educated or not? Or if they have a good and high paying job or not?

What are our assumptions here?

Thank you again and please keep participating, this may be helpful to you (collective you) too.

Edit: cross posted with Kith - that was very helpful, Thank you!

 

[HareBrain]

Kith has a good point about a shy person acting aloof.

Good grief, people are complicated. Fortunately I get round all this by revealing at the end that all my characters are robots.

 

[Ursa major]

And even if these indicators are not (entirely) accurate - unlikely as this may seem - that doesn't mean that your POV character(s) will read - or misread - them as such. (There's nothing to say that two different POV characters have to read the same body language the same way. And thats without considering different cultures or different sentient species.... Not that I want to make things overcomplicated. )

 

[Kith]

Most people I know look on shyness as a bad trait to have (though I don't understand that myself) so I guess a "good" thing like attractiveness or a well looked upon job/education would up someone's opinion of said shy person, same as the opposite might increase a low opinion. (you might want to talk/know the shy guy/girl who was incredibly cute, but would you be so eager to make the effort with the quiet geek in the corner?)

In my experience, some extraverted people look down upon shy or quiet people as socially rude or boring or uncomfortable to be around (again, probably more first impression stuff).

(As an aside, one of THE most irritating things to say to a shy person is variations of: "You don't say much, do you?" which most people seem to think is cute/funny. I mean, what are you supposed to say to that?).

By the way, shyness (for me, anyway) isn't really a problem around people I know well, so if your character is interacting with people she knows well it might not be apparant at all, and similarly their opinions of her would probably preclude the fact she's shy or lacking in confidence. I'd say there are also different degrees of shyness, so how shy your character is would influence opinions of her. Is she a cute shy where's she's just a little bashful around strangers and new situations, but quickly warms up? Or at the other end of the spectrum where it verges on an anxiety? Also, I've noticed being shy makes it easier to spot it in others (maybe to the point you can tell aloofness from actual shyness?), and I tend to want to include those people more in group situations, if only by looking their way too when speaking. I've noticed that if you don't input in a conversation, people don't look in your direction; kinda like you're not there (which incidently makes it harder to put shyness aside and speak up!).

Oh, I thought of one more thing that might be interesting. During an art class, once, we did this exercise where we all wrote one word about a person on a bit of paper (we were doing this thing about identity and putting together boxes that represented 'us') and I thought it would be amusing to do it myself in order to 'label' the outside of my box. I didn't ask friends, only people I didn't know that well and all but two were variations of 'quiet' (my outgoing friend also did it and got a plethora of different words). So I guess if you're quiet, that's all is seen about your personality by others.

 

[Precision Grace]

Wow Kith, that's fabulous. Can I just PM you for advice as I write? (And Kith, Nicolette is going shopping today, how do you think that might go?) just kidding, but to be honest, I wish I wasn't.

Seriously, this is unbelievably helpful. I've noticed the same thing about shy people that you describe, even when I make an effort to include them in the group conversation, they find it very difficult to stay in the conversation because I (amongst many others, of course, heh) tend to hog the limelight.

Thanks again! If you think of anything else that might help, please feel free to PM me if you wish

 

[HoopyFrood]

While we're on the subject of shy, people can seem so even though that's not really their problem. Me, I seem shy when you first meet me because I'm so chronically unable to engage in small talk and haven't a clue what to say. It usually needs some prodding and questioning from others to get conversation flowing from me. Once you get to know me, that's never a problem thereafter.

Which probably sometimes make me seem a little aloof, because I'm awesome at maintaining eye contact p) but because I don't know what to say, people might think me reserved and stand-offish.

 

[Kith]

Wow Kith, that's fabulous. Can I just PM you for advice as I write? (And Kith, Nicolette is going shopping today, how do you think that might go?) just kidding, but to be honest, I wish I wasn't.

Seriously, this is unbelievably helpful. I've noticed the same thing about shy people that you describe, even when I make an effort to include them in the group conversation, they find it very difficult to stay in the conversation because I (amongst many others, of course, heh) tend to hog the limelight.

Thanks again! If you think of anything else that might help, please feel free to PM me if you wish

You know, it makes me chuckle to be asked advice on shyness of all things! But hey, glad I could help! If you do need any specific advice, don't worry about asking. I don't mind. I have a bajillion embarrassing shyness experiences. Of course I can only conjecture on the way people perceive shyness, but I have my assumptions anyway.

On the shopping thing. (Yes, I DO realise you are kidding about the shopping question, but I feel like answering anyway. Boredom!!!! (or procrastination, since I should reallly be writing. heh) )....

Again depends on what kind of shopping (routine supermarket shop? or something less common - clothes, gifts etc). Is she on her own or with good friends or with people she doesn't know that well? If I'm with a good friend, I'm usually pretty fine. On my own it depends what (if anything) happens. With people I don't know that well, I find I can be a little on edge, like you have to keep coversation going and not dictate which shops you go in or browse too long in case the other person gets bored. (!)

I sometimes get a bit fumbly at the cash register making sure I've got the right amount of money, or that I insert a debit card the right way round in those card thingys. Silly little things like that. Nothing big, really. Maybe a few blushes and mumbles. If someone tries to make small talk, I generally just smile and nod and move on (though maybe because, like Hoopyfrood, I'm not big on small talk either).

Is the scene from her POV? If it is I wouldn't go overboard with those sorts of things unless she's really socially anxious and the whole thing is something of an ordeal anyway, in which case it might constantly be in her thoughts. I'd say mostly shyness would surface when the character has to do something while someone is watching/waiting, like getting money out etc or if, say, a hole in the wall machine ate her card, she was on her own, and she had no idea what to do (maybe there's a queue!), or maybe a drinks machine eats her money (thankfully those things have never happened to me!). You get the idea. But once again, it depends on how shy you want her to be. If the shopping is something routine she does everyday, shyness might not be apparant at all, since shyness is more of a reaction than a personality trait.

The only other thing I can think to mention is that, if she's not confidant and easily persuaded by others, she might be a sucker for beggars wanting change, people stopping her for surveys, wanting to sell stuff or flog store cards, and people handing out leaflets. That's lack of confidence/lack of ability to say no more than shyness, but since you mentioned the character lacks confidence, I thought I'd throw it in.

Please excuse all typos etc. They're all intentional, I swear. Haha.

 

[Peter Graham]

Hi (other) PG,

• • How do you distinguish between humility/humbleness and lack of self esteem?

  Example: "I hope my lack of knowledge on this subject would not make you think badly of me and put you off from replying."
  
  - what does that sound like to you?

I think it depends on genre and situation. For example, if you were reading a Bronte or even a Conan Doyle, characters say this sort of thing all the time. They don't mean it literally (and we aren't supposed to think that they do), but the social mores of the day dictated that in certain situations, people assumed a sort of cod-deference or pretend-inferiority in their speech.

If we are talking about a more modern piece (in terms of historical setting as well as date of composition), then to me it sounds like someone trying to ensure an answer by flattering the reader - a sort of literary version of the very tongue in cheek "we're not worthy".


But, of course, the sentence won't be read in isolation. If your character has low self esteem and this has been made clear throughout, this extract will just read like a further example of the same trait and no-one will think twice. You should never need to encapsulate a major character in just one sentence, so don't try!

• [*]What is the difference between pride and self-respect?
  [*]

Pride is not always a negative quality. Self respect is never a negative quality. The former is just about being pleased with yourself (with or without good cause) and carrying yourself in a way that allows others to see how pleased you are. The latter is more of an internalised quality which doesn't need to be actively projected to be recognised by others.

• [*]What is the difference between aloof and shy?
  [*]

Shy people don't find it easy to engage in social interaction, whereas aloof people don't care about social interaction (at least with those to whom they consider themselves to be superior). Aloof suggests some form of deliberate social snobbishness.

• What is the (outward) difference between laziness and listlessness caused by depression?

Crikey. It depends on the individual. But perhaps lazy people can appear to be happy and content, whereas listless people will frequently have a face like a wet weekend. Lazy people can still engage in social interaction, whereas listless people will derive little joy form such interaction and may seek to avoid it. In a listless way, of course.

• What is the difference between arrogance/haughtiness and self-confidence?

It's just a question of degree. Look at Robbie Williams at Knebworth. Which was he?

Regards,

Peter

 

[BookStop]

What is the difference between pride and self-respect? What is the difference between arrogance/haughtiness and self-confidence?

It hink these 2 go hand-in-hand. A person full of pride and arrogance will 'brag' about whatever subject comes up. they will be the authority on all things. Oftentimes this is the person who has trouble arguing with others as they can't admit to themselves, mush less others, that they may be worng or misinformed. A person with self confidene willist thier accomplishments when asked , might also have alot of knowledge on a particular subject, but won't stoop to anger defending thier point-of-view. It is much easier for a confident person to let others shine int hier presence.

What is the difference between aloof and shy?

Every example folks have given are right on. A shy person doesn't hold eye contact, they won't give info unless asked, they definitely won't offer more conversationt han is aked of them, and they might fidget when confronted. I am very shy, but tend to fake it around others. I smile, offer insights, etc, but only for the briefest amount of time I can get away with. I tend to use my animals or children as a distraction when I can to get away. I might also, in my exuberance to appear outgoing, take on a little arrogance, which can lead casual aquaintences to think I'm an arse. I have a child who is soooo shy, she speaks very softly and will blink excessively. I have a friend who really only speaks when directly asked a question. Another who's cheek gather allt he blood that should otherwise be flowing through her whole face. Makes her look nervous and shy which only makes it worse. I think if she was prolonged to conversations with new people, she might eventually pass out.

What is the (outward) difference between laziness and listlessness caused by depression?

I think a lazy person will still show a zest for life eventif they can't be bothered to partake in it. They may be willing to discuss the lastest news, even of they didn't go out to get the paper themselves. they may laugh at a sitcom on tv, whether or not they can reach the remote to change the channel when it's over. A listless, depressed person, won't show joy; they might sleep too much; they might suddenly become over-eaters; they might become busy-bees instead, staying too busy to allow for reflection; they could try and talk about it; or they could clam up and become suddenly quiet...depression can be a hard one to pin down as it manifests itself so differently in defferent people. However, I think it will show itself in a change from the norm. SOmething that perhaps only those close to the depressed would recognize.

 

[HareBrain]

This being a writers' forum, it perhaps isn't surprising that many of us seem to be shy to some degree. And yet many of us (even if we know it's unrealistic) dream of a level of success that would mean publishers would stick us out in front of audiences of hundreds to give readings, or ask us to meet scores of strangers to sign their copies of our books, or want us to give live local radio interviews with thousands listening.

I merely offer this as a subject for nightmare.

 

[Nik]

Perhaps mis-quoting / mis-translating an old aphorism...

Pride goes before a fall, but self-respect stands you up again.

---

Um, thanks, HareBrain-- Now I really gotta worry about accidentally writing a best-seller...

ps: Thanks again for beta-reading that chunk of SoM !!

 

[Precision Grace]

Thanks again for your continued support with this project (especially Kith, your accounts are going to feature heavily in the construction of my fictional character - I hope you are ok with that!)

Peter, Bookstop, HB and Nick, I really appreciate you taking the time to think about this and to contribute. I have copied everyone's answers into a Word document and saved them on my laptop (no server wobble is going to get the better of me again!)
It's back to the drawing and thinking board with this; I now hopefully have enough material to think about and mull over and start making a believable character.

Once again, my heartfelt thanks for your help and for making this board the joy and wonder that it is. (- so what does this sound like?..hehe just kidding)

 

[Kith]

(especially Kith, your accounts are going to feature heavily in the construction of my fictional character - I hope you are ok with that!)

No problem. Good luck with the story.