Mance, Dalla, and their son.

[Boaz]

I just came across the discussion between Gilly and Sam about naming the baby in Sam's fourth POV in AFFC.

Let me reset Mance, Dalla, Gilly, and the two babies before I give you the quote.

Mance was a child when he was taken by Rangers according to Qhorin. Mance had difficulty in accepting orders. He was a wildling at heart.

Mance and Dalla had a son born during Stannis' victory over Mance.

Gilly was the daughter-wife of Craster. She gave birth to a boy and fled with Sam.

Jon switched the babies so that Val, Dalla's sister, has Craster's and Gilly's son while Gilly and Sam have Mance and Dalla's son.

Everything clear? Okay read the following...

"We could call him Maester, if you like. When he's old enough, not now. We could."

"Maester is not a name. You could call him Aemon, though."

Gilly thought about that. "Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong."

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had none of Sam's craven blood. "Yes. Call him that."

"When he is two," she promised, "not before."

The important words here are Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson.

We already know the boy was Mance's son, but Craster's grandson? Did I miss something? Was this mentioned before? This means that either Mance or Dalla is the child of Craster. What are the implications of Craster being the child's grandfather? This means that boy is the uncle of Gilly's boy.

If Mance is Craster's son, how did he live long enough to be taken by Rangers? If Dalla was Craster's daughter, why did he not marry her also?

Is this a faulty remembrance of Sam? Did GRRM make a mistake?

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Well, in cases like these, its always a good idea to assume the character is at fault.

If we assume that GRRM is fallible(in the text), then basically the entire continuity and all speculation based on it unravels.

 

[Ursa major]

It might, in spite of what TSM states, simply be an authorial error, but as that leads nowhere (depriving us of pages of argumentative posts ), lets put that to one side. That leaves Sam.

We could take Sam's thoughts and assume that they represent his view of the truth. That would mean that someone has told Sam that either Mance or Dalla is Craster's offspring. Who could that have been and when did it happen?
*waits while someone else does the leg work*

On the other hand, Sam could simply be confused. However, it seems unlikely that he's confused about the child's identity, otherwise he wouldn't think the baby is Mance's child as well as Craster's grandchild. That would suggest that Sam's confusion is about the parentage of Mance or Dalla. Again, why would he be confused about this? Did someone suggest something that led him to believe this?
*waits while someone else does the leg work*


By the way, the POV structure of ASoIaF means that Sam may have been told - or surmised (based on faulty information/thinking) - something about this when we weren't looking, so there may be nothing more about this (suggesting a GRRM error), or it may lead on to more plot twists (and speculation).

 

[Boaz]

One of the boys is Mance's son and one is Craster's son/grandson, but Sam thinks one boy is Mance's son and Craster's grandson.

So... if Sam's at fault, I can live with that.

If GRRM made a boo boo, then I know he's human.

If this is a revelation to us, then is it a red herring? Does it have any bearing on the story or did Martin incorporate it to drive me crazy?

How could Sam know this? Who told him? I have a few ideas on this. First of all, there's Gilly. As Craster's daughter, she knows much regarding Craster's dealings. The next person, I think likely, is Aemon. He told Sam about Jon switching the children. Mayhaps he got information from Jon or Val regarding Mance's son's true heritage... or mayhaps Aemon remembered the story of Mance's finding by rangers. Sam also could have come across this information from Jon, other men of the NW, or from Craster himself... though, I think that this source and information would have been mentioned in one of his POV's. Finally and mayhaps very likely, Sam got this information from Coldhands.

I'm interested to see what Werthead makes of this. He's a mod on an exclusively ASOIAF forum. If this topic has been discussed, he's likely to know.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

There's an exclusively ASOIAF forum?

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

If the child is Craster's grandson, then the truth is rather easy.
Craster always leaves the sons he begets with his daughters/wives outside in the wild. At least, that's how I read it.
It is not much of a stretch that Rangers found this particular son before nature took its course. It's morally reprehensible for the Rangers jut to leave the kid. Let alone impractical to just leave a new recruit lying out in the snow.

 

[Boaz]

But Qhorin said Mance was brought in as a child and not as a baby. We know that Craster does not wait until his sons are weaned to sacrifice them to the Others, he does it the moment they are born. Child v. Baby could be argued as semantics, but if so then how do we account for Mance's urges to return to the wildlings? If he never remembered them, why would he want to go back? Lots of the NW hate taking orders (that's why they are there in the first place), but none of them are running north.

 

[C Of K]

These pictures are big, so I'll only post the one. I just wanted to know what everyone thought. Is there a doubt in anyone's mind that Val and Dalla are the daughters of Craster based on these pics?

Dalla

I guess anything is possible

It would provide one reason as to why Craster didn't seem to like the wildling army, although there hardly seems to be a need to explain such things where Craster is concerned.

If you were going to steal any of Craster's daughters, these would be the two to steal, or not, depending on how large your army is.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Those were made by Amoka, not GRRM. They are thus invalid evidence.

They're still awesome, though.

 

[C Of K]

I know. Not a completely serious post up there. But the chances that the two women are related to Craster seem higher to me, than the chance that Mance is a blood relative.

I can't rule out any of the possibilities, though.

 

[Boaz]

Okay, the wildling courting rituals had slipped my mind. So, the Craster as Mance's father in-law theory states that Mance slipped into Craster's hut and stole Dalla... but what about Val? Seems she had her boy toys...

Craster married his own daughters, so stealing a daughter from Craster would be like stealing his fiancee... I don't think he'd take it very kindly. I don't think Craster would let one daughter run away either. If one went, others might leave too. Remember Mormont said something to either Jon or Sam about how none of Craster's wives were bold enough to take that steel axe and kill him when he was passed out. Seems like Val might have done that to ensure her escape or to get vengeance upon Craster... But then again, if Craster left to hunt Val and Dalla would any of the other wives remain in his absence? Maybe he just cut his losses and moved on. I dunno.

And that picture of Val is too dainty... too prim... too Sansa-ish... for my taste. Despite her beauty, I think she was at home roughing it.

 

[C Of K]

Good points, but Mance may not have had to go too close to Craster's in order to run away with his daughters. How many daughters did Craster have again? That many women have got to be a pain to try and keep track of all at once.

And then there's the army to consider. Not that Mance would need the whole army to keep Craster away, or even throw him off the trail. I'm sure if it was true, Craster would have fought 10 men to the death to get his daughters/wives back...but it could be that Craster didn't even realize it before they were long gone.

 

[Boaz]

I like the idea of Mance stealing Dalla from Craster. I also like nitpicking.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I think Ill paraphrase the tree when I say...."you guys make things harder than it needs to be"....(thats what she said.)

Seriously GRRM just made an oversight with the two babies being present. It happens....even the Renly eye-color thing which we debated for a week and half was less obvious than this.....or the Westerling hip size quandry....

But good catch Boaz, I missed it and had to go back to read it to prove the line was as you wrote it. Couldnt believe I missed something that obvious.

 

[C Of K]

I think Ill paraphrase the tree when I say...."you guys make things harder than it needs to be"....(thats what she said.)

Yes, but it's fun! especially with Boaz around.

 

[Boaz]

Awww, shucks. <blushes>

Egg, you say it's a typo that slipped past editing? I could buy that. I'm waiting for Wert to give us the truth.

 

[Werthead]

To be honest, I've never come across it before. I'll put it up at Westeros, see if someone knows there.

 

[Boaz]

Thanks.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Wait, something Wert hasn't seen? I joined not too long ago, but even I know that when something passes by that Westeros hasn't seen...well...
Consider my jaw dropped.

 

[Werthead]

Having consulted the oracles of Westeros, it appears that this is either a GRRM error or Sam was simultaneously thinking of Mance & Dalla's son as being Gilly's son (the lie) and their's (the truth). Some have taken this as a sign of Sam's imminent descent in roaring insanity.

But more likely it was a slip-up.