Shadow out of Time

[Wolf873]

I recently finished Shadow Out of Time, now that I have some time to read my novels, and I must say it was Lovecraft's next best story after Cthulhu. Well I have only read SOOT and COC for now, am in midst of finishing Shadow Over Innsmouth, which too is eerie. That aside, I just wanted to discuss with people here, do you think Nathan overreacted a bit? I mean to the whole mystery that was surrounding his amnesia, his "double personality", and the discovery of truth?

From the looks of it, he came off as a curious type, an open minded fellow to some degree: that's why it seemed out of character for him to be this scared of discovering the truth. His discovery didn't really alter anything that would upset the established order of things, he merely found accounts of lost or soon to come civilizations, and any scientific mind, or curious for that matter, would be more excited than scared of it. The only thing to be frightened off would have been those race of half-polypous (is that correct?), since they were the true unknown factors in the whole puzzle, and maybe the knowledge of human race extinction: but that is understood, no species can last for infinite amount of time. Honestly speaking, I would have been more frightened of walking in those colossal ruins in the dark than of finding those books.


What are your thoughts on it?

 

[j d worthington]

No, I can't say as I think he overreacted... though I will admit that, the first time I read the tale, I didn't "get" the full impact of the "confirmational ending", so I probably would have agreed with you then.

However...

His discovery didn't really alter anything that would upset the established order of things[....]

Well, actually, it does, on various levels. For one thing, it causes a complete rewrite of the history of evolution here, calling into question various branches of scientific understanding on the most fundamental levels, requiring a thorough reexamination of how we view the world and, indeed, the universe.

Second, it completely negates not only our assumed primacy on the Earth, but even our right to be seen as important at all (save, of course, to ourselves; and even that is likely to be profoundly shaken by the implications of what he found). Not only is humanity made simply one of a vast number of intelligent civilizations, but by inference (the placement of the document in the Great Race's library), we are apparently among the more negligible such species to arise in the history of the cosmos, barely worth noticing at all.

Third: In thus reducing our importance in the cosmos (and in time), it completely demolishes the idea of any teleological development in which we may be concerned (and, in a broader sense, any such development at all). It completely eradicates even the least vestiges of any religious belief, as all such make human beings central to their concerns. (As has been often stated, the purpose of religion is "to justify the ways of God to man"; by its nature placing humanity at the center of things.) Here, we see a completely mechanical, uncaring universe in which, in the final analysis, nothing matters or can matter, save by the use of emotional blinders to keep us from fully realizing how thoroughly insignificant the entire existence of humanity, the earth, and even the universe itself, ultimately is.

The thing is, it isn't just the existence of what he found; it is all the numerous implications of that discovery, that causes his reaction. Finding concrete proof that his experience wasn't simply a delusion, a part of a mental aberration linked to his amnesia, or a dream, means that nothing in his (and, by extension, our) knowledge is stable or firm; we are not at the brink of the abyss, but rather in the act of plunging into it... and that abyss has no bottom.

Remember; all of these minds were brought together by the Great Race millions of years in the past. In essence, everything he comes to fear has already happened; but, like the rest of us, he lives in ignorance of that fact, like an insect skating over the vast depths of the sea by virtue of surface tension. In his case, the finding of the ruins of the city, and even more specifically of that document (thereby proving that he really did spend time in the body of one of those alien beings all those eons ago), is like the eruption which breaks that surface tension, allowing him (and us) to be engulfed by all which lies unknown to us in the earth, in the universe, and in the past.

The interesting thing is that, as with so many of Lovecraft's tales, there is an emotional tension between the horror and the awe and wonder in such a situation -- he manages to convey, in science-fictional terms, as it were, the Burkean sublime perhaps better than any writer before or since; and Peaslee's discovery, and what it means for him and humankind in general, is one of the best examples of that synthesis; a very difficult thing to achieve.

 

[Wolf873]

You know, I see what you mean, and I must admit I felt the same thing when I was reading it. I think I would revisit it to fully get the gist of the story. However, I completely agree with you on your 2nd and 3rd points, they go together if I may say so.

However, isn’t it understood, amongst scientific minds that humans are indeed only a small speck of dust in the grand scheme? Religion aside, don’t we already teach our children in schools that humans are merely just another species evolved from a common ancestor, and that there would come a time when we too would experience extinction and another species would come and the cycle would continue until the planet becomes inhabitable or such? Since the book was written decades ago, the way of thinking was somewhat different than what it is now, perhaps that’s why he acted the way he did. Maybe we still, even though we have come so far, still hope in our hearts that we are the center of the universe and not just another life form. So I guess you could say is that the knowledge eradicates ‘hope’.

However, you say that our most fundamental scientific understanding of the world would change, while that’s true, since there’s a lot that could be learned from the aliens, however, how would it alter our knowledge about ourselves? The aliens never interfered with the development of humans; they were merely observers as I understand. On second thought it could be that their legacy could have allowed humans to advance further, but even nowadays we theorize that aliens do have a hand in advancement of human technology, take for example the great pyramids: that’s one theory though not saying that it’s true.

Your last statement is very true, his stories are real work of art, imo.

 

[j d worthington]

how would it alter our knowledge about ourselves? The aliens never interfered with the development of humans; they were merely observers as I understand. On second thought it could be that their legacy could have allowed humans to advance further, but even nowadays we theorize that aliens do have a hand in advancement of human technology, take for example the great pyramids: that’s one theory though not saying that it’s true.

I got into it a bit with my earlier post, in my comment about a full realization we are neither unique nor even particularly notable as intelligent species to evolve on this planet. It reduces us to, at best, a quite minor place even here on our own planet. That's a realization human beings have yet to face -- after all, there is no evidence so far of any species genuinely intelligent enough to compare with us here, let alone be beyond us in the way we are beyond an earthworm -- but Peaslee is forced into that realization not only on an intellectual, but fundamental emotional level -- and that is something that even those who are aware of so many of these points intellectually seldom come to experience on the latter.

As for their legacy "allowing us to advance further" -- I'd say that's an example of what I mean. The point I'm trying to make here is that we haven't really advanced all that much (in light of what the story has to say); at best, we have subtilized certain basic instincts into mannerisms and actions which bear the appearance of advancement; but that's really all it is: an appearance of such. At heart, we are still driven by the most primitive drives, even as are young children, without being any more aware of this than are they. On top of this, their "legacy" was completely lost, save for vague dream-memories of those they had exchanged minds with; and even these were perverted into a mystical or semi-religious mythological structure which once again attempted to put human beings at center stage -- Lovecraft once again making his point that human beings simply cannot face the truth of our lack of significance on any level for more than a brief moment. A few individuals here and there may come to such a realization, but that very awareness sets them apart from their fellows, making of them outsiders who will often be seen as mad.

About this latter point -- there is a fascinating discussion of Hamlet in one of HPL's letters to Alfred Galpin on the subject; Lovecraft arguing that Hamlet's actions are based on a complete realization of the falsity of all the beliefs we hold dear; he comes quite brutally to an understanding of the realities:

Having had his theories of life founded on mediaeval and pragmatical conceptions, he now loses that subtle something which impels persons to go on in the ordinary currents, specifically, he loses the conviction that the usual motives & pursuits of life are more than empty illusions or trifles. Now this is not "madness" -- I am sick of hearing fools & superficial criticks prate about "Hamlet's madness". It is really a distressing glimpse of absolute truth. But in effect, it approximates mental derangement. Reason is unimpaired, but Hamlet no longer sees any occasion for its use. He pereives the objects & events about him, & their relation each other & to himself, as clearly as before; but his new estimate of their importance, and his lack of any aim or desire to pursue an ordinary course amongst them, impart to his point of view such a contemptuous, ironical singularity, that he may well be thought a madman by mistake.

-- Letters to Alfred Galpin, pp. 48-49

This is only a brief excerpt of a 3-page discussion of the subject, yet it goes to show how this theme was already a part of Lovecraft's views as early as 1918 (the date of the letter being mid-October of that year).

I will try to put in more on this later, but I'd better get moving now, or I'll be late to work.... In the meantime, I hope someone else joins the discussion; it would be nice to get input from others who have read the tale as well....






Your last statement is very true, his stories are real work of art, imo.[/QUOTE]

 

[zachariah]

Thanks for the letter excerpt, very interesting. I just found and read SOOT after reading this thread, and was left a shattered shell of a man. Not out of any existential angst about mankinds place in the universe, but at seeing how far my own vain scibbles have to go to even approach that quality.

I see what the OP is getting at - from a modern perspective, it is does seem like the narrator is overracting a bit. But I'd say it is justified, if only from a personal viewpoint - how would you feel if you woke up to find five years had gone by, and your investigations led you to believe you had been possessed by a superior alien intelligence who existed before coming to Earth millions of years ago, and would live again long after humans had died out? And that you had just discovered what was very probably the cause of man's future demise?

 

[Wolf873]

You make some solid points Worthington, and I agree with everything you have to say. That’s exactly what I was getting at too, only you put it better than I would have.

Thanks for the letter excerpt, very interesting. I just found and read SOOT after reading this thread, and was left a shattered shell of a man. Not out of any existential angst about mankinds place in the universe, but at seeing how far my own vain scibbles have to go to even approach that quality.

I see what the OP is getting at - from a modern perspective, it is does seem like the narrator is overracting a bit. But I'd say it is justified, if only from a personal viewpoint - how would you feel if you woke up to find five years had gone by, and your investigations led you to believe you had been possessed by a superior alien intelligence who existed before coming to Earth millions of years ago, and would live again long after humans had died out? And that you had just discovered what was very probably the cause of man's future demise?

I never said it wasn’t justified, of course it is. It depends from person to person as to how they handle sudden realization of truth. As to how would I feel about all that, I can’t give you a definite answer since I haven’t experienced amnesia, but the condition would leave me in a strange state, that is speaking of amnesia, not the displacement of mind. However, the strangest part would've been time gap itself of 5 years compounded by the fact that my body was being piloted by an alien being; it would intrigue me. It’s only the vast knowledge that might affect me in a certain way, but as I said earlier, it depends on person to person as to how they handle such realization, and I guess Nathan handled it the way he could. As to your last point, it’s just like you got the news that you’re going to die of cancer and you know it’s going to be soon, so whether you decide to sit in the corner and cry or decide to accept the truth and live as much as you can is entirely up to you, but the fact is everyone dies and we have to accept it; it’s not really news. However, knowing how one would meet his/her end can be frightening, but it comes down to how you handle it right?

In any case, I merely wanted to discuss his reaction to what he found, not saying I didn’t find it plausible, just playing on one side of the debate.

Thanks for a nice discussion guys, I don't really get many people to discuss my readings with since not many of my friends or family are into reading books.

 

[j d worthington]

Thanks for a nice discussion guys, I don't really get many people to discuss my readings with since not many of my friends or family are into reading books.

Glad to have such a discussion going. As you say, it's not often one can find such, certainly in a close personal circle; and not really that easy to find a good discussion of Lovecraft's work (in particular) on the 'net, as most people simply don't go beyond the surface aspect of his tales, which is a pity, as there's a great deal more going on there than that....

 

[ravenus]

Y'know, all this discussion is fine but...the reason I read Lovecraft sort of precludes my objecting to the "realism" of the characters in his stories. I couldn't make it through ATMoM and TSOI and other Lovecraft stories if I wanted their protagonists to behave in entirely credible fashion

 

[j d worthington]

Y'know, all this discussion is fine but...the reason I read Lovecraft sort of precludes my objecting to the "realism" of the characters in his stories. I couldn't make it through ATMoM and TSOI and other Lovecraft stories if I wanted their protagonists to behave in entirely credible fashion

I'd have to disagree with you on that in large part -- certainly about those two tales. If you take a realist, someone well-educated and grounded in the sciences and not given to belief in the supernatural, they're likely to react fairly closely to the way they are depicted there (save, perhaps, for the fainting in "Innsmouth"). It takes a good deal of time and a lot of evidence to persuade them that something which (apparently) violates natural law is going on, but that is because they react the way a genuinely skeptical person is wont to do -- looking for rational explanations first, and only accepting the irrational or seeming violation of all natural law as understood when the evidence is overwhelming. Which, really, is the point....

I fear we're too used to characters who swallow the incredible lock, stock, and barrel with scarcely a hint of a demurrer. I'm not at all convinced that the more rational among us would react that way.

On the other hand, such characters as Armitage (though once he witnesses Wilbur's demise he at least has fairly good reason), Willett, and the like, are a bit too prone to accept such too early on -- they seem overly gullible, given their backgrounds and supposed intellectual endowments. These are the Lovecraftian characters which strain my credulity; and they are certainly the sorts of people of whose judgment I would be very dubious when it came to religious, philosophic, or scientific matters....

Incidentally, in connection with my other thread (on Lovecraftian Criticism), you might want to look up a (tongue-in-cheek) article by Darrell Schweitzer on this subject, titled "Character Gullibility in Weird Fiction, or Isn't Yuggoth Somewhere in Upstate New York?". It makes its point with rather broad humor, but it is nonttheless well worth reading....

 

[j d worthington]

In the course of rereading Barton L. St. Armand's M.A. thesis, H. P. Lovecraft: The Outsider in Legend and Myth, I came across the following passage on this particular story, which I thought I'd share with those interested (Warning: Spoilers):

That last rather matter-of-fact observation -- concerning man's rather abysmal rank in the Great Race's particular filing system -- indicates an interesting foliation of one of Lovecraft's most persistent themes -- family decadence. Family decadence has finally become universalized into race decadence; man himself is not just a little lower than the angels but a great deal lower than ten foot rugose cones who slither along on a rubbery fringed foot. Decay and devolution have become truly cosmic; not only man's rationality, but his whole psychic life is open to a sneak attack that fully exposes its woeful limitations. Lovecraft's imagination has finally ambushed imagination itself.

Along with the denigration of man's nature, the other most significant element of "The Shadow Out of Time" is its attempt to portray time itself as a shadow, as something to be feared, as a mockery and a possible source of ultimate debility and insanity. Time has the last laugh on man, and the last laugh even on the planet, as it spins a frozen and fragile mote through the immensities of cosmic space. Lovecraft's most powerful dramatization of this concept occurs in the last pages of "The Shadow Out of Time," which recount Peaslee's flight through the huge, dark underground corridors of the not entirely deserted city of the Great Race. His retreat, his groping clamberings over the piles of debris millions of years old, which catch at his clothes and tear them to shreds, seems to image the ultimate gothic flight through the ruins of the ultimate gothic castle; the flight of Reason from its very genesis and what lies beyond it. All the old accepted guideposts, the ancient, primeval archetypes (including, no doubt, even the white bearded swineherd of Delapore's vision) are crushed and broken; behind lies the great repository of knowledge -- the Great Eden of Wisdom of the Great Race -- which tells all that man wants to know -- and more than he should know. In front lies the dark abyss, the rift in the great structure of thought itself -- the Pit of Insanity -- which we have seen so often in Lovecraft's fiction, over which Peaslee must leap if he is to regain life and peace of mind, even if it is imaged by a cold, barren moonlit desert. He passed it in his search for knowledge, and he must re-pass it again in his flight from knowledge, even though the path is now more difficult and his "search-light" is in danger of giving out. That he does make it is only a species of Lovecraftian irony, for Peaslee loses the evidence of his achievements (just as Alice brings no relic back from her particular Wonderland) while the passage-way to the city of the Great Race (and the Great Secrets) is covered by the sands which themselves are so obvious a symbol of the power of time. The only compensation which Peaslee derives from his experiences is the thought that the whole thing might have been a horrible nightmare, but this is only a further retreat from the truth, and scarcely reassuring. The nightmare remains time itself, which continues to cast an ominous shadow on the origin, destiny, and value of man.

-- pp. 251-53​

 

[nigourath]

I was so overtaken by your remarks about "the shadow out of time",j.d.I couldn't agree more about many of them,especially the position -according to the novel-that the human race holds in the "cosmic" level.What"s still more impressive about this ,is that lovecraft even names the next race ,that isgonna replace the "inadequate" human kind ,the koleopters namely, creating an even greater sense of human insignificance -since we regard very lowly today the whole "class" of these creatures-....at least the way they are today ,as definitely their evolved forms would replace humanity.

Still,the very impressive fact of this novel for me ,is that Lovecraft attacks the very sense and essence of Time itself.Not only the human race isn"t the perfected "lifeform"that we all -and subconsciously we do believe that..-----think,not only humanity"s perception of Time is utterly subjective and flawed,but more-over Time itself is nothing but a Perception....This is the sense of transcedence that Lovecraft is unique for,and still uncompared till today.Time is too shallow to hold the very profane and inexpicable mysteries of this universe,it is just another "constant" created by the inferior human logic to create a self-served expanation of the cosmos.And as the title suggests there are many shadows out of this Time ,that humanmind cannot grasp their image ,sense or content.The very inclination of humanity to create variables and constants of the world they inhabit, has turned to a very persisting habit ,a routine everyday beloved sport,the daily amusement that is then used selfishly for all the number of reasons and interests...Yet Lovecraft points out the relativity of such conceptions and slaps it in the face of the reason.

In short,man is not the god he thinks ,Time doesn"t exist the way he acts about it,and this guy still wakes us out from the self-righteous slumber we are in ,even 70 and more passed of his death......

 

[Fried Egg]

I just wanted to discuss with people here, do you think Nathan overreacted a bit? I mean to the whole mystery that was surrounding his amnesia, his "double personality", and the discovery of truth?

From the looks of it, he came off as a curious type, an open minded fellow to some degree: that's why it seemed out of character for him to be this scared of discovering the truth. His discovery didn't really alter anything that would upset the established order of things, he merely found accounts of lost or soon to come civilizations, and any scientific mind, or curious for that matter, would be more excited than scared of it. The only thing to be frightened off would have been those race of half-polypous (is that correct?), since they were the true unknown factors in the whole puzzle, and maybe the knowledge of human race extinction: but that is understood, no species can last for infinite amount of time. Honestly speaking, I would have been more frightened of walking in those colossal ruins in the dark than of finding those books.

It seemed to me when I read this story that the thing that really frightened him, that precluded him from further participation with the expedition and his petition for it to stop, was the discovery that these dangerous beings so long contained beneath these cities, were still alive and yet to die out. That their further containment hung by a thread and could so easilly be disturbed.

Of course, all the rest that has been well elucidated here by JD were important factors. But they go more to explain the personal shock and effect on the protagonist. What humanity had to be protected from was the accidental unleashing of those beasts held within. Although presumably he knew from his prior studies how the human race would come to pass and that it wasn't at the hands of these creatures? But that brings another interesting question that I don't think Lovecraft touched upon in this story; the immutability of time. Never did the protagonist attempt to make use of his future knowledge in order to change it.

 

[j d worthington]

nigourath: good to see you around again. Hope to hear more from you.

F.E.: To some degree, I agree with you. The immediate threat, at least, was the "invisible whistling octopi" (as Edmund Wilson so deridingly described them), and the need for abandonment of further excavation lest the remnants -- they were already dying out, but not yet gone -- be aroused to further action, just as with the shoggoths in At the Mountains of Madness.

But where I disagree is that it was more than just his own personal ego which was attacked here -- it was the entire egocentric view of humanity as a whole, as everything in the tale points to not only our insignificance cosmically, but also temporally; we are merely a "prelude [or perhaps an interlude] to the play" proper, nothing more. The placement of human records in the archives, for instance, being a strong indicator of this: given the Great Race's explorations, they would have a much more objective view of our importance in either sense, and place our records accordingly.

As for why the protagonist didn't do something to alter the future -- it has been a good while since I last read "The Shadow Out of Time", so I don't recall any specific passages which may deal with that; but yes, this fits with Lovecraft's philosophy as a Determinist, and his view that humanity and all its actions are simply not that important, nor ever can be. For example, here are a couple of letter excerpts on the subject (the first is actually the later of the two, but as it goes directly to the point, I give it priority):

In one matter we are alike -- our scepticism regarding cosmic purpose, and our consequent contempt for owlish earnestness and hectic activity.[...] Determinism -- what you call Destiny -- rules inexorably; though not exactly in the personal way you seem to fancy. We have no specific destiny against which we can fight -- for the fighting would be as much a part of the destiny as the final end. The real fact is simply that every event in the cosmos is caused by the action of antecedent and circumjacent forces, so that whatever we do is unconsciously the inevitable product of Nature rather than of our own volition. If an act correspond with our wish, it is Nature that made the wish, and ensured its fulfilment. When we see an apparent chain of circumstances leading toward some striking denouement, we say it is "Fate". That is not true in the sense meant, for all of those circumstances might have been deceptive, so that a hidden and unexpected cause would have turned matters to an utterly opposite conclusion. The chain of appearances are as much a part of fate as the result, whichever the latter may be -- and more; there is no such thing as a final result, since all cosmic existence is but an endless and purposeless chain beginning and leading nowhere.[...] No life has any meaning or central principle -- a man is merely an infinitesimal fragment of that cosmic mess of matter which is the playground of capricious, kaleidoscopic natural forces. We are what we are at the moment, merely because we are. Sometimes we may guess from our present state how we are likely to turn out, but all the real causes are in the hands of forces we can never fathom.

-- from a letter to Rheinhart Kleiner, 13 May, 1921 (SLI.131)​

Our human race is only a trivial incident in the history of creation. It is of no more importance in the annals of eternity and infinity than is the child's snow-man in the annals of terrestrial tribes and nations. And more: may not all mankind be a mistake -- an abnormal growth -- a disease in the system of Nature -- an excrescence on the body of infinite progression like a wart on a human hand? Might not the total destruction of humanity, as well as of all animate creation, be a positive boon to Nature as a whole? How arrogant of us, creatures of the moment, whose very species is but an experiment of the Deus Naturae, to arrogate to ourselves an immortal future and considerable status!

-- from a letter to the Kleicomolo, 8 August, 1916 (SLI.24)​

There were slight modifications of this as he grew older, but the core remained the same. Part of such determinism is realizing the futility of the efforts of one human being to try to alter the basic nature and almost instinctual approach to life of the whole -- which would, of course, be necessary in order to make even a slight possibility of changing the foreseen result feasible. What Peaslee had discovered would simply not be accepted by the bulk of humanity, which clings to its traditional views and beliefs as a form of "security blanket" against the realization of our inconsequence and lack of importance in the universe at large; and the result would more likely cause him to be shut away in an asylum (or killed outright by those feeling too threatened), as well as (where he was believed) causing people to seek out what he had discovered, placing them in the same position themselves. But it would not, in the end, make any dent in the ultimate end of humanity and its replacement by other species. (Even were we to wipe out the coleoptera -- something which is most improbable, if not outright impossible, given their hardihood -- it would simply alter which species replaces us, not our own demise.)