Villifying the Persian Empire

[Cheehwawa]

Particularly the Achaemenid Empire, which came into conflict with Greece numerous times in the classical world.

You know, the one who was 250,000 fighting-soldiers strong which took 3 days to kill a rag-tag force of 4,000 Greeks which took a break from centuries-long civil wars to hold a small pass known as Thermopylae.

The Persian Empire was actually a pretty just one, at least under Darius, which let their subjects keep their native habits. But since they were the main threat to the Western world in its infancy, the snakes sent by Hera to kill Herakles in his cradle, they have been villified in modern pop culture (like in "300").

I am building a universe right now called the Spartaverse, in which the Greeks, led by Sparta, managed to defeat the Persians at Thermopylae after successfully holding out for 7 days until reinforcements arrived, since a scout managed to kill Ephialtes before he gave away their position on the second night (yes, he was real).

The Spartans were at the head of an Empire which rapidly grew past its limits and was forced to add democratic elements, turning into a Republic at around the time Rome would have turned into an Empire - that is, if Rome wasn't wiped out by Sparta in it's infancy in around 500 B.C.E. in my universe.

The Republic managed to hold firm for two thousand years, discovering alien artifacts in Australia which allowed them early colonization of our solar system. In this societal restructuring, war broke out on Earth (known as Gaia in this reality) and the Spartans repurposed all of the Hellas (Greece) into Lakonia, a natural environment not subject to the laws of the Republic, which exists as a direct replica of Sparta ca. 480 B.C.E.

This Hellenic change displaced most of the Greeks from their native lands, who became the first space colonists, founding Messennia on the Moon, Attica on Mars, etc. This expansion would continue for some 400 years, with the outermost colonies being on and around Pluto (Hades in this reality). The Republic continues strong on Earth, but the people in the colonies are not born full citizens - they are Helots, not able to become voting citizens unless serving for 10 years in the military (Earth-born and Mars-born people need only serve 2 years).

Eventually an alien conglomerate invades the outer colonies from a wormhole-type portal that exists built on the surface of Eris, apparently placed by some ancient race millions of years prior.

This alien conglomerate invading will parallel the Greco-Persian Wars. Thus the conglomerate must parallel the Persian Empire.


Whew. That was long. My question...

Should I villify this alien conglomerate? They will be largely influenced by the Persians (leaders, successions, names, troop types, terminology, conflicts, conquered lands, etc.), do you think that people would take this as offensive? I don't really want people to be able to relate to the Empire as a whole as then they won't feel so strongly for Sparta to come out on top in the end.

I know that Darius was pretty lenient for an Emperor but at the end of the day he did lead an army mainly comprised of slaves...

Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[KESpires]

I wouldn't base the aliens themselves on the Persians. Allegorical writing is always a little on the cheap side. However, if you have the Greek press villify the aliens and compare them to the long ago Persian Empire it'll hold up as using a nice historical reference and staying original.

I like the premise a lot.

 

[KESpires]

Also, you might check out ILIUM and OLYMPOS by Dan Simmons. He handles this cross-genre writing very well and has greeks using quantum technology and flying on chariots driven by fields of energy and so on and so forth.

 

[Cheehwawa]

Wait, what do you mean by the Greek press? The aliens will be made up of numerous species which coexisted under an old Republic, which fell to a species of violent aliens which was expelled to a backwater solar system to live in seclusion. The Republic, however, would not sustain itself and the systems ended up collapsing, and after a period of no-growth or Dark Ages, an Empire is formed that unites the old species under the rule of one family line, and these will be based on the Achaemenid Empire of Persia (and the species in the Republic's civilizations will be based on the independent Kingdoms which Persia defeated and absorbed)

 

[KESpires]

I'm assuming since you said the Greek city-states evolved into a republic in your universe that they have freedom (or some degree thereof) of the press. So you could have the newspapers villify the aliens and compare them to Xerxes and his march west. A force of heathens to be stopped at all costs.

 

[Sapheron]

These aliens are the villains in your story, are they not? If so, it seems fair to villify them.

 

[Cheehwawa]

I am reading about the Achaemenids right now and they seem like pretty just people; they are against slavery, against lies, etc. so it will be kind of tough to villify the aliens if I want to keep it historically accurate (ex. I was going to call the obscure clan of near-extinct aliens who rule the Empire the Achaemenids).

But do you guys think it would be bad to villify an alien conglomerate if they seem heavily based on the Persians? I don't want to offend anyone... though I do really like the concept of the Empire being based on them. Maybe I will just use different names (like in Halo the evil Covenant are based on the Christians, but not many people know that because most of the names and concepts are different)

 

[KESpires]

I wouldn't worry about any of that during the actual writing process. Offending people is going to happen.

 

[nj1]

I've just read The Ten Thousand by Paul Kearney, while the opposing forces are obviously Greek and Persian, he's changed thier names but its all there. Don't worry about it, you can't please everyone.

 

[Cheehwawa]

Alright, thanks for the suggestions guys, I will now pour through these books and try to clang out the workings this Empire

 

[chrispenycate]

Have you read the Drake/Flint "Belesarius" series? Not the same generation Persians, to be sure (Had the Aryan Medes and Persians even come down from the hills when the earlier empire was established? I'm afraid that at school science specialists weren't taught history, for some reason {possibly so we'd repeat it?} so I've picked up scraps all over, but not the big picture)

 

[kadife]

If you only read English sources, you are bound to have a one-sided view of the subject no matter how objective you try to be. Just an example: 'Sparta' is İsparta in Turkey where I come from, and so of course, Spartans are a Turkish group with their ancestors alive and kicking today. They didn't just die out or disappear off the face of the Earth. Or emigrate. I would think closely about re-naming these groups of people--people who have in-depth or personal knowledge (because it is part of their mother culture) about these things are RIGHTLY offended.
I suggest you start by taking an inexpensive package tour to Turkey for your summer holiday, and visit İsparta!

 

[Cheehwawa]

When I say Sparta I mean the Sparta in Greece, I don't quite understant what you're getting at...

 

[kadife]

Sparta IS NOT IN GREECE. Look on a map of Turkey, please. Its modern name is İsparta (are you having a joke, btw?) Just for the record, Troy is also in Turkey. And many other places from Classical (not always 'Greek') mythology.
Look how you've managed to confuse and irritate me (although I realise it was not intentional). I think we've managed to prove the point that it's worthwhile trying not to 'vilify' any particular living nation. What's exotic and ancient to you may be what is just down the road and learnt about by primary school children in other countries.

 

[chrispenycate]

There is a tendency for anyone who went through the same 'education' system as myself to class everything in that cultural block as "Greek", even while knowing that Archimedes was technically Italian, that Philip, the first effective unifier, was Macedonian, that much of the archipelago was different cultures that would have hated to be lumped in with the mainland city states…

But Turkey was Greek even when it was Roman; the Byzantine empire spoke it, and the 'Turks' were steppes nomads still (as doubtless the Hellenes had been before them)

Still, a map I just accessed (at: http://fail92fail.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/ancient-greece-map.jpg ) puts Sparta firmly in Pelaponesia.

 

[mygoditsraining]

You're going to have to provide some references for Sparta really being Turkish, kadife. As far as every modern reference I've seen is concerned, sparta was a city-state on the Eurotas river, which flows through Greece.

The city of Isparta, in western Turkey, was originally called Baris, founded in the first millenium, as part of the Byzantine Empire. Geographically, its location makes no sense in terms of the history surrounding the Spartans.

Please don't fly off the handle going "Turkish history is the only true history". Back up your arguments with something verifiable, or get over the idea that convincing people with table-banging rhetoric isn't going to work.

Back on-topic. As a bit of background, I would urge you to take a look at how Darius came to be leader of the Persians. The message of "truth and light" and the Godhood of "Ahura Mazda" are strong messages that reverberate down through history, but was Darius really the 8th son in an unbroken line of Kings? Check out Tom Holland's "Persian Fire", it's a very enjoyable summary of the history surrounding the Persian expansion (with sources and bibliography!) and the Spartans themselves.

What I would suggest you do as a writer is to not necessarily have a "good" side and a "bad" side, but have heroes and villians on both. The most interesting characters, to me at least, are those that struggle with their conscience, and have a journey that is personal rather than global (ofc it can have global ramifications, but that's almost incidental - Fitz may well have saved the Six Duchies in the Assassin's series, but years later people still ask Robin Hobb at signings if she'll ever bring back the Fool).

Good luck writing it, sounds very interesting, and you couldn't have picked a more exciting slice of history (arguably) to inspire yourself with.

 

[iansales]

Er, Sparta is in Greece. It's now known as Sparti, and is in the muncipality of Laconia - see here. Isparta, OTOH, is nowhere near where historical Sparta existed and was in fact known as Baris when it was Byzantine.

 

[kadife]

I've just asked my colleague why the confusion, and she said the problem is, in Turkey and the middle east 'Sparta' = İsparta/Sparta in Turkey (you only have to Google and you'll find it squarely in Turkey!) and what are known here as the LACEDEMONIANS = Spartans to Europeans = the town of 'Sparti' in modern Greece. What's confusing is that Sparta in Turkey is a very ancient town also with a distinct culture. Names given by the Byzantines didn't often stick, and they reverted generally to their older forms in the end.
I was not making any particular point about Turkish history, just stating the fact that since ancient times, there has been and still is a large town known as Sparta. I was talking about the fact that actually these people stayed put and didn't move even though political alliances etc may have changed--I wasn't making any heavy point, nothing that needs 'backing up' or 'proving', I think you'll agree. The confusion arose with the 2 different places having similar names. I don't understand what you think is 'table-banging rhetoric'? I did not say anything like 'Turkish history is the only true history'.
Hope this makes MY point clearer, and I can see what YOU are on about now. And I've just realised how long it's been since I've been in totally european culture.

 

[nj1]

I'd second a reading of Persian Empire by Tom Holland. Fantastic book on the 'birth' of the empire through the remarkable Cyrus the great.

 

[Cheehwawa]

Sparta IS NOT IN GREECE. Look on a map of Turkey, please. Its modern name is İsparta (are you having a joke, btw?) Just for the record, Troy is also in Turkey. And many other places from Classical (not always 'Greek') mythology.
Look how you've managed to confuse and irritate me (although I realise it was not intentional). I think we've managed to prove the point that it's worthwhile trying not to 'vilify' any particular living nation. What's exotic and ancient to you may be what is just down the road and learnt about by primary school children in other countries.

What are you talking about? Isparta is a city in Turkey, but Sparta (modern name Sparti I believe) is in the Greek Peloponnese. I also know that Troy is in Turkey (it was called Wilusa to the Hittites and Ilium to the Myceneans). You are trying to prove an irrelevant point. Sparta was an Ancient city in Greece for a long time, in the region known as Lakonia, and the Spartans and their surrounding conquered peoples (the perioikoi) were collectively called the Lakedaemions.

I acknowledge that there is a city called Isparta in Turkey, but it really has nothing major to do with the Greco-Persian Wars in this case, so why are you bringing it up?