Is this world viable?

[ventanamist]

Here goes. A world similar to ours, except that, at around about our stage of 'progress', they had a world war. No holds barred, nuclear and whatever else they had to throw against each other. No problems so far. It could easily happen. What I want to know is: could it lead to the following scenario several thousands of years later?

A world where all mammals and birds have been destroyed. Arthropods have grown and adapted to fill all of the ecological niches that have been vacated.

Problems:

Evolution doesn't seem to be the smooth gradual change that Darwin predicted. Some of it has been like that, but there have been lots of jumps and explosions. The dinosaurs were rapidly replaced by mammals in only a few million years, a mere blink of geological time. However I am hoping for a period of time where there are still buildings and artifacts to explore ie. only thousands of years. Would this be feasible? Mutation and the short life of arthropods would help. It would serve my ends if they could just get a lot bigger.

I will be sending people into this on foot. I am hoping that the radiation would not be a problem for a short visit, no eating or drinking and dust masks worn. Any radiation experts out there?

How big could the bugs get? the fossil record shows four foot scorpions eight foot centipedes. I assume there is a size where the weight of an exoskeleton becomes an obstacle to movement, but a knight in full armour manages to get around and chitin is much lighter than steel.

Has anyone come up with a world like this already?

Other stuff:

What weapons would you use against these bugs? Which ones would be the most dangerous and why? Is there any other stuff you might find in such a world?

I would welcome any feedback whatsoever. Thanks folks.

 

[Interference]

The key is in the question How dissimilar is this world? Might these creatures have already been evolving anyway, or may indeed the biological weapons used have enhanced the potential for speedy mutation? How big a creature was it before the war? Were they used by the native cavalry like horses, perhaps? Why build tanks when the local fawna has far more advantages? Are they already intelligent, but a slave mentality has prevented them from realising their own potential until now?

Anyway, I'd be juggling with some of these ideas were it me.

Hope some of it's helpful to you.

 

[HareBrain]

Have a look here:

Giant Insects Might Reign If Only There Was More Oxygen in the Air

Backs up what I was taught in school biology about the current upper size limit on insects.

 

[dustinzgirl]

I am moving this to the workshop because this is more workshoppish than critiquishable.

I just made those words up. How cool am I?

I think that any world that you can justify is viable, there are many different types of worlds, I mean there are stories of living suns and nebulas, so I think its less in the what is in the world and more in the why it is in there.

 

[Blackrook]

According to Google, radioactive fallout is pretty much dissipated after three to five weeks so your heroes would not need protection to explore destroyed cities thousands of years after a nuclear war.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Beg to differ Blackrook. The are still areas around Chernoble that it would be foolish to go into. Even though there are people living there, it's not safe.

As I understand it 'fallout' is the settling of the dust thrown up in the neuclear explosion. Wherever that dust settles can be a death sentence for anyone disturbing it.

You could kick a door open and breathe in thousands of particles that'll have you dead before you get to the bottom of the page.

 

[ctg]

Radioactive dusts lasts long, long time, especially in desert conditions. It just doesn't go away. Half life in U-239 is little over twenty four thousand years. However, there's a big change that nature will find a way and cover the damaged area with plant life, burying effective the destruction underneath. This is especially true in Bikini atol, where coral reefs has covered the nuke craters. Same thing applies to Chernobyl. Those places are death traps. If you want to live there, then you have to learn to live with the radiation.

What you can do in story form is that you write things in plausible way. Much can be taken as granted and people want escapism. They want to see that there's life after destruction. Your life can be different. Your world might have kicked in next evolution cycle in faster way then what we believed to be possible.

 

[C Michael MacAlister]

Well, here's my 2p, although most of this is probably already covered...

The evolutionary theory your mention is called "punctuated equilibrium", and was proposed in the 70's by (among others) the late Stephen Jay Gould. Since then, there's been a heck of a lot of evidence that it's the correct evolutionary viewpoint in many circumstances. Remember; evolution is the name given to a whole raft of processes, and, depending on the situation, the Red Queen Hypothesis ("run as fast as you can just to stay in the same place") may pertain, gradualism (slow 'n' steady) might rule, or punc. eq. might hold the day, so you can bend the rules you establish as much as you like!

Radiation; remember, it's not just the fallout (as mentioned above). You've also got irradiated surfaces near the blast sites, irradiated ground, irradiated animals and plants... the dust might blow away (which isn't good news anyway) but the surfaces remain. That is certainly something to consider too.

Insects; you're right about giant insects, but the O2 levels 370 Million years ago during the Carboniferous (when giant insects did indeed rule) was closer to 35%, and thus these beasties were able to proliferate. It also led (it is thought) to giant, out-of-control forest fires and Dresden-style firestorms raging across the planet, so bear that in mind.

Killing them? Well, sharp sticks'll do it, of course, but remember our friend the Rhododendron; get your pyrethrins from that little beauty and apply liberally to the three-foot cockroach.

Most dangerous? I vote for a 6-foot Bombadier Beetle. Spits 110-degree acid out about 3 feet from it's body. Multiply that out and you've got a really dangerous creature, but bear in mind that many insects carry disese, poisons, parasites and other nasty surprises, too.

So, is it viable? Yes. Has it been done before? Sort of, but, as I mentioned in another thread, you haven't done it before. Take the concept, own it, make it yours; give it your own twist.

Lay on, sir, and I for one look forward to seeing what you come up with!

 

[looloop]

well I think if it's something you want to write about then go ahead and do it. Sci fi is sci fi for a reason...There ARE no limits!

 

[ventanamist]

Thanks folks. I couldn't ask for more. I like to try and begin with good science, however it finally ends up. So oxygen is the limiting factor and the forests would limit the oxygen by burning down. I guess that's one of the ways Gaia keeps the atmosphere stable.

Spiracles could evolve to become more like lungs or I could just do away with forests. Destroyed in the war, giant insatiable woodworm maybe or perhaps there never were any.

I'm looking up the Bombadier beetle - almost too scary. They don't have to be big; army ants are pretty formidable. I have just watched a Youtube clip of a foot long centipede crushing and eating a mouse. Lots to go on,

 

[Aes]

Honestly, if you want giant insects in your world, don't worry about how scientifically viable they are. This is fiction, so put them in if they seem like they belong in your story. As for the radioactive thing, that might be a bit harder to sell to someone, so ask yourself--does it have to be nuclear devastation? This is where you can cook up some neato scifi weapon that delivers total devastation and, the side effects of whatever (not so longterm) fallout it leaves behind unexpectedly forces jumps in the evolution of certain species.

 

[HareBrain]

Colin Wilson used giant (and semi-intelligent) bombardier beetles in his Spider World (which also, surprise surprise, features giant intelligent spiders). I think in that case it was revealed that the invertebrates had evolved large size and intelligence thanks to the crashing on Earth of some kind of alien plant. Far as I remember though, he didn't consider limitations on size caused by oxygen density.

 

[thaddeus6th]

This sounds to me (a non evolution/radiation specialist) a pretty interesting route to take.

I also wonder if you could train some of the mega-insects to be used as cattle or work animals (pulling ploughs, guard arachnids etc). Possibly hormone manipulation would be a way to do that.

 

[Izmir Mike]

This sounds to me (a non evolution/radiation specialist) a pretty interesting route to take.

I also wonder if you could train some of the mega-insects to be used as cattle or work animals (pulling ploughs, guard arachnids etc). Possibly hormone manipulation would be a way to do that.

Aphid cows? Ant Bloodhounds?

 

[thaddeus6th]

Ants and termites (as well as wasps, bees, hornets etc) could be particularly useful as they exist in societies already, so you'd just need to be able to give them the right flavour of hormones (or whatever mechanism they use to maintain order) and they'd be ready-trained almost.

The problem with increasing size would be probably with the volume/surface area ratio. However, in the prehistoric world there were enormous insects, so it's entirely possible they could increase in size, though that might need significant internal changes.

 

[HareBrain]

However, in the prehistoric world there were enormous insects, so it's entirely possible they could increase in size, though that might need significant internal changes.

Due to higher oxygen density at that time - see link in post#3.

 

[J-WO]

How about the various sides of the original nuclear war genetically tinkered with insects beforehand? The reason being to keep fighting a war above ground even after all nukes are expended and no human soldiers can walk on the surface?
They would be better than using robots because they can keep replicating and don't have to replace new parts, simply regrowing them.

 

[ventanamist]

Thanks folks. I thought this thread had died a death. Yes. they were developing insects as weapons. The world is taking shape. Spiracles seem to be the main problem about size. I believe that there is a theory that wings evolved primarily to fan air into the spiracles (the little port holes that insects breathe through). They could revert to this function. Some caterpillars manage to inhale and exhale; this could be transfered to other species with a bit of genetic fiddling.

I'm thinking about the sky. I envisage great clouds of flying insects of varying colours - everywhere. I imagine them moving like great amoebas in the sky.

I assume you couldn't despatch a large insect with a head or heart shot. Single projectile weapons would probably be a waste of time. Any ideas for suitable weapons.

Maybe someone could comment on this too: In order to explain the sudden mutual destruction by war of an intelligent race, I imagined a biology where instead of many instinctive barriers against inter species, violence that we have; there is none of this, just a fight to death or incapacity. I can see evolutionary advantages in this. It would mean a world of gentle considerate creatures that go berserk when they have exhausted all peaceful options.

Any comments welcome. Thanks.

 

[Xelah]

Hi,

Something you might consider looking into: There's a show that airs on the Discovery Channel (I think?) here in the US called Life After People. It would give you a good idea as to what the world would start looking like after the dust settled from your nuke fight. It wouldn't help so much with your invertebrate civilizations, but if a radioactive surface is near a fairly wooded area, according to that show, the surface would be burried by 2 inches of new sediment yearly as a result of decomposing vegetation. Assuming 4000 years at 2 inches per year buries radioactive surfaces in over 650 feet of sediment by the time your explorers show up.

So logically, in order to find something, it would have to be in either a non-forest/jungle area or have post-structural-failure-rubble taller than 650 feet. I'd go with something that doesn't produce radiation for the doomsday weapon though.

Recommended reading: "Empire of the Ants" a short story by H. G. Wells

 

[ventanamist]

Thanks Xelah. I thought I'd read all Wells's stories; I don't recall that one. You're right, I don't think radiation will be a problem for them. The final war would have been fought with everything available: nuclear, chemical, biological; no holds barred. But I wanted the people who did this, to be gentle and noble, superficially better than us in most ways. I want to soften the hearts of my 'explorers' (plunderers or scavengers really - just another job to them) with the monumental tragedy of it all.

One point: I should have written 'intra-species violence' not inter-species, above. ie. violence between members of same species, not different species.