Economics and SF/F

[bloggeratf]

After reading Dune for the second time I couldn't help but dwell on the economic aspects that are so central to the book (feudal capitalism). My thoughts wondered, as usual, to the way economics is used in other SF/F, trying to think of an instance in which capitalism is not the organizing principle of economic forces. So, what I am looking for, if you can think of it, is a book in which A) the economy is not capitalist B) the economy is nonetheless successful.

If possible, try and reduce the technology element to a minimum - no point in having a communist utopia if the only way to do that is to have super-powerful AIs making all the decisions.

So I guess, after all that, what I am getting at is whether or not there is a book out there that doesn't alter all that much about human nature or our technology level, and still pulls off a convincing economy that isn't preponderantly capitalist. Sorry if my question was a bit long...

 

[Omphalos]

There are a ton of SF books out there that deal with socialist and communist societies. A lot of them work, but a lot don't.

Here is a list of all the books on my website that are tagged with the "Economics" tag. Lots of them should satisfy your curiosity.

You should look at the books tagged with "Utopia" too.

 

[Fried Egg]

"The Dispossessed" by Ursula Le Guin shows that working anarchic-socialist society that doesn't rely on advanced technology to make it work. It operates on a a sister planet to another that is basically modelled on a futuristic earth and operates the kind of capitalism that we do now. The book uses and explores the contrast between these two social organisations and the benefits and problems with each.

"1984" by George Orwell has a working authoritarian socialist economy in place although obviously doesn't make the idea seem very attactive...

I do enjoy finding economic themes in the SF books I read being very interested in economics myself generally although I do find that most SF authors are quite naive in tacking economic issues. SF authors tend to me far more well aquainted with the natural sciences than they are economics.

 

[Urien]

Iain M Banks books of the Culture take place in a communist utopia. The reason it works is resources are almost limitless, hence no method is required to divide up the spoils.

Star Trek takes place in a Federation where there appears to be no money or capitalism. However, it's not obvious how it works as resources are not limitless (though technically if they ever used the replicators for anything other than coffee, resources would be limitless).

 

[Fried Egg]

Iain M Banks books of the Culture take place in a communist utopia. The reason it works is resources are almost limitless, hence no method is required to divide up the spoils.

That's kind of cheating though, isn't it? If you eliminate scarcity, you eliminate any concept of an economy be it socialist or capitalist. There is no need to economise.

 

[bloggeratf]

@Omphalos, thanks for the list. There are some good ones there I forgot I have read.

@FriedEgg The Dispossessed sounds like exactly what I am looking for. Perfect. Thanks.

@Urien Yea, the whole idea is to find an economic system that functions not based on any significant changes in tech or human nature, although I guess the human nature clause is a bit hard to quantify.
Also, ST tends to ignore issues of economic theory, at least as far as I recall. I remember a couple functioning examples of Utopian societies, but none of those meet my previous requirements.

@ FriedEgg re: Urien - Yea, limitless resources (a fairly commom theme in SF if not fantasy) tends to obviate any discussion of economic systems, since they are predicated on the the allocation of scarce resources.

Great discussion so far.

 

[Omphalos]

That's kind of cheating though, isn't it? If you eliminate scarcity, you eliminate any concept of an economy be it socialist or capitalist. There is no need to economise.

There'd still be trade though, as resources are not all found in the same place, and that necessitates an economy.

 

[AE35Unit]

Oh boy,why combine a boring subject with one full of potential!

 

[Omphalos]

Actually, if you will just sit down and take a look at these spreadsheets I'v brought along.....

 

[Ursa major]

There's no accounting for taste....


I would have thought that economics is one of the most important aspects of world building, whether in SF or Fantasy. As such, there is no reason why it couldn't be a key part of a story, as long as the subject is handled with a bit of imagination.

(A story that is merely a thinly veiled exposition of the rights and wrongs of a particular economic system is likely to be a less interesting read.)

 

[Pyar]

Not to those of us who study economics.

 

[bloggeratf]

Oh boy,why combine a boring subject with one full of potential!

Not sure if that was aimed at someone specific or at the topic generally.

Either way, it seemed to me that greed, as a motivation, is so central to the construction of so many SF/F books that I wondered what a book would be like when you embrace a system that is not based on the assumption that greed maximizes efficiency and the distribution of scarce resources (the underlying assumption of capitalism).

Also, if you have picked up more than three SF/F books, you'll know the genre is about more than entertainment. Then again, given the vociferous criticism of the Hugo awards shortlist, maybe too many readers are interested in the genre only for the magical swords and spaceships.

 

[AE35Unit]

It was aimed at the subject. I don't do personal.
When I think of Economics I think of accountants and bookkeeping and lots of numbers. My other half is a qualified accountant. Top of the class. She got out cos it was boring,soulless.

 

[bloggeratf]

It was aimed at the subject. I don't do personal.
When I think of Economics I think of accountants and bookkeeping and lots of numbers. My other half is a qualified accountant. Top of the class. She got out cos it was boring,soulless.

I guess we see economics in a totally different light then, especially with respect to SF/F. Some of the most memorable fantasy books I have read had a strong component of economic scheming involved. Dune for example, the book I used to introduce this topic, is one of those books--the whole system is predicated on a feudal capitalist backdrop.

 

[AE35Unit]

Probably explains why I didn't get on with Dune then!

 

[Xelebes]

Fancy that, I'm looking to get in. Of course, it's not for everybody.

 

[Fried Egg]

There'd still be trade though, as resources are not all found in the same place, and that necessitates an economy.

Sorry to be pedantic but in such a scenario resources are still scarce in the strictest sense of the word. A commodity ceases to become an economic good when it becomes super-abundant, immediately accessible to anyone at any time.

 

[Urlik]

as I didn't notice any mentioned of it in previous posts, I recommend Beyond This Horizon by Robert A Heinlein which has Social Credit as the economic system in use

 

[Thadlerian]

This comment has obviously no value whatsoever regarding the intentions of the OP, but the opportunity is too good: Pick up any Economics 101 textbook. There's some SF/F for you.

 

[Omphalos]

Sorry to be pedantic but in such a scenario resources are still scarce in the strictest sense of the word. A commodity ceases to become an economic good when it becomes super-abundant, immediately accessible to anyone at any time.

Im not talking ideology. Im talking practicality. My point was that all goods would not be "immediately accessible." I find it impossible that anyone could dig a hole and fine every single mineral that they would ever need. Some things a person needs will be in another's territory. Obviously I meant trade. As in "I have a bunch of this. You have a bunch of that. Ill trade you this for that." That is economic activity, yes?