Classic fantasy?

[AE35Unit]

There's loads of recommendations for classic sf in here but when it comes to fantasy it seems people only read modern stuff. I.e. post 1980, the Terry Goodkind,Raymond E Feist,GRRM to Stephen Ericson etc,but what of the classics,from a time before the Book 1 of a 6 Part Series era we now live in? The only name I can think of is Tolkien,of which I have read The Hobbit. But what else is there?

 

[J-Sun]

I sense a j.d. worthington post coming on.

All I can really come up with myself is John Collier, all the Weird Tales gang (Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, Ron Howard (just kidding - Robert E.) etc.), Mikhail Bulgakov, some of Kafka's surrealism can be seen as fantasy, E.R. Eddison, Stoker, Lewis Carroll, of course Poe and some Hawthorne, the huge crew of gothic writers (from Walpole on to Lewis and others), Malory, on back to a huge number of medieval romances and on back to the legions of Classical Mediterranean myths and whatnot.

And I've also come across many of the authors I mention (and I don't read much fantasy) on threads in here (and I don't even seek out the fantasy threads). So it's not all just GRRM in here.

I will say that many modern authors mentioned here seem to be of a piece. I don't see many references to your Lisa Goldsteins or Kij Johnsons or other writers of small odd stories, but mostly just to your 1000 page decalogies of High Fantasy. But it may just be that I'm not attuned to many of these references.

 

[blacknorth]

Best not to forget Angus Wilson's superb fantasy, The Old Men At The Zoo.

 

[murphy]

One of my favorites was The Incomplete Enchanter by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt. It was a parallel world series of stories that were pretty good.

 

[AE35Unit]

Hmmm Jason,a lot of those authors you mentioned I associate with horror. Ok so horror is a kind of fantasy I suppose,but were there high fantasy books in the time of Poe and Lovecraft? What sort of fantasy,other than horror,was around back then?

 

[J-Sun]

One of my favorites was The Incomplete Enchanter by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt. It was a parallel world series of stories that were pretty good.

Oh, yeah - I completely forgot that angle: de Camp and Pratt (apart and together) wrote a lot of good stuff and Leiber wrote tons of stuff, including the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories, and C.L. Moore has her Jirel of Joiry stuff (and while her Northwest Smith stuff is set on Mars, it works as fantasy), Poul Anderson has written a few things regarded as fantasy classics, Sturgeon, Vance and Zelazny, Cherryh's Morgaine books if you take them as fantasy rather than "science fantasy" (and some outright fantasies, too), lots of Tanith Lee, etc. Many authors straddle bounderies or switch hit with success.

Hmmm Jason,a lot of those authors you mentioned I associate with horror. Ok so horror is a kind of fantasy I suppose,but were there high fantasy books in the time of Poe and Lovecraft? What sort of fantasy,other than horror,was around back then?

Yeah, I read way less horror than even fantasy, so I tend to not think of it as a separate genre. (I mean, it is, but insofar as it is, I don't read it at all. I have started a King and probably read a Barker and maybe something else or another in my entire life.)

As far as fantasy back then, the peak of Weird Tales would have been the 20s and 30s, I guess. And it wasn't just horror - it published "weird" stuff. Collier was writing polite whimsies for slicks in the 30s, Tolkien did The Hobbit in `37. Eddison did The Worm Ouroboros in '22 and started the Zimiamvian Trilogy in 1935 - though I haven't read him (or some of the others - they're in the TBR).

I dunno - I'm not remotely an expert on it, but I figure there's been a great variety of fantasies at most every time - just in varying proportions and popularity.

Edit: Just realized I must have read that as "Smith and Lovecraft" - Poe predates Lovecraft by a long while and, yeah, I guess he is "horror", but I don't think of him in the same terms. I'm not sure what all was going on at that time besides Hawthorne and maybe some late Gothics.

And Cabell's Jurgen (1919) was something I was trying to throw in there, but I kept blanking on the name.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

There's been discussion on and off about the Fantasy Masterworks series as a whole, and some of the specific books and authors.

I remember discussions of Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, Lord Dunsany's The King of Elfland's Daughter, Patricia McKillip's The Riddlmaster of Hed (and it's sequels), Hope Mirrlees's Lud in the Mist ... these are just off the top of my head. I know there have been discussions of other books, too. You'll find some threads in the reviews section. I did some reviews of classic fantasy a while back, and provided links to most of those reviews here http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/11683-some-of-the-books-that-have-inspired-me.html .

Then for classic YA fantasy there have been threads on Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising series, Alan Garner's Weirdstone of Brisingamen and its sequel The Moon of Gomrath. I know Meredith Ann Pierce has come up, but her Dark Angel trilogy began just this side of 1980.

There are some of us that are quite keen on the older books but a lot of times we just mention them in passing in something like the monthly reading thread.

 

[j d worthington]

I've been scolded somewhat for the title of this thread, but it seems to be what you're after, nonetheless:

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/43819-fantasy-pre-tolkien.html

As for "Collier [...] polite whimsies"... ummm... how much Collier have you read? Even a brief dip into Fancies and Goodnights will show that he frequently had about as dark a view of humanity as Shirley Jackson or Charles Addams at their most misanthropic; at times he can even rival Bierce (though he never quite accomplished something like "Oil of Dog", or the other tales of Bierce's "Parenticide Club", I must admit...). What you're describing here sounds more like Thorne Smith (creator of "Topper"... and the fact that I even remember that character, let alone having watched the television series based upon the book(s), may well date me more than anything else I've ever put on here....).

Poe... yes, he is mostly known for his horror, but that only comprises about 10-15% of what he actually wrote; he wrote all types of tales, from whimsical to poignant, wistful tales, to nature studies, to savage satire, a fair amount of which uses fantastic elements.

"High fantasy" is a relatively recent term, but that type of tale has been around for ages, and you'll find a fair number of suggestions at the link I sent to you (or the links given in the threads mentioned there). But I would suggest you not stick only with "high" fantasy, as fantasy is a very broad field, and comprises humor, horror, quietly wistful pieces, ghostly tales (both of the horrific and whimsical kind -- cf. John Kendrick Bangs, for instance), parallel universe stories (the Harold Shea stories by Pratt & de Camp mentioned above, or their The Land of Unreason, etc.), and just about any type of tale you care to mention, from the delicate fairy-tale atmosphere of some of Dunsany's work to the biting social commentary of Harlan Ellison to the elegiac tales of Ray Bradbury.

And then there's the "sword-and-sorcery" type of tale, which would probably suit you just fine, as it is mostly an adventure tale set in a fantastic milieu, but sometimes with a mixture of sf and fantasy (as in several of Andre Norton's "Witch World" stories and the like... a fair number of which I would recommend to any lover of classic sff). Leiber has already been mentioned, but Avram Davidson has also done some marvelous tales in the fantasy genre, and you might want to check out his The Phoenix and the Mirror, Peregrine: Primus, or The Island Under the World, as well as his various short story collections (a personal favorite being Or All the Seas with Oysters..., titled after the Hugo-winning sf/fantasy piece). I would also think you'd enjoy some of A. Merritt's or H. Rider Haggard's fantastic tales.

Smith was more a fantaisistes than a horror writer per se (even his "horror" often had a fair degree of irony and humor to it), and definitely shouldn't be missed; but Lovecraft also did his share of fantasy work which lands somewhere between what most people think of as fantasy and horror, and I'm not merely referring to his "Dunsanian" tales here.

There's a rich cornucopia of types of fantasy to choose from; the problem, in fact, is choosing, once you open that door.

And that's not even counting the fact that a fair amount of the sf magazines have published what, essentially, is fantasy, for that matter....

 

[J-Sun]

As for "Collier [...] polite whimsies"... ummm... how much Collier have you read? Even a brief dip into Fancies and Goodnights will show that he frequently had about as dark a view of humanity as Shirley Jackson or Charles Addams at their most misanthropic; at times he can even rival Bierce

I have indeed only read Fancies and Goodnights long ago, though I now have The John Collier Reader instead (which loses 8 from F&G in exchange for 5 others and a novel). What I meant was that he doesn't write of Clive Barker's putrefying zombie puppies or whatever the hell was in the thing I read, nor does he write like a "rude pulpster", so to speak - he wrote for the slicks. Perhaps I should have borrowed from his title and said "genteel fancies"? Wasn't meaning to imply anything about his view of humanity.

 

[Fried Egg]

AE35Unit

I think you could do worse that explore the Fantasy Masterworks Series. Some of the books are trilogies collected into single volumes but many are stand alone stories. To see the my thoughts on the ones that I have read, see here (note that some times I have read the individual books that comprise of a single masterworks volume). I have also read (and can heartily recommend) REH's Conan stories and many of Clark Ashton Smith's stories but not in any way, shape or form resembling the masterworks editions.

 

[Connavar]

Fantasy Masterworks are a great series, inspired me to read more classic fantasy and made me love reading some great fantasy authors.

I can recommend strongly Lord Dunsany,Robert.E Howard,Jack Vance,Jack Williamson,Poul Anderson, E.R Eddison books in FM series.

I read more and more classic fantasy. I try authors simply because they were in those eras. The modern fantasy authors you mentioned dont mean anything to me.

I want more imagination,worlds than Erikson,GRRM,Feist type series.

 

[Fried Egg]

China Mieville is a modern fantasy author who's good for ideas and imagination. He does write stand alone books but they are quite beefy.

 

[Connavar]

Yeah i know i have read his short fiction so far, i plan to read his famous book/series.

I prefer to read certain classic fantasy authors i enjoy but that doesn't mean i don't read newer interesting writers I find.

 

[GOLLUM]

Yeah i know i have read his short fiction so far, i plan to read his famous book/series.

I prefer to read certain classic fantasy authors i enjoy but that doesn't mean i don't read newer interesting writers I find.

Well China is definitely worth a look Conn. You should start with Perdido Street station as it's a great read and his latest offering City and the City encompasses noir mystery ala Chandler.

I have the complete SF and Fantasy Masterwork series and can recommend them to folks here.

I actually had posted some threads on these so if I can find them I'l post them.

Sadly VG have decided upon not continuing with the Fantasy Masterwork series in its current format but the SF series continues to be promoted.

 

[GOLLUM]

Following is current Masterwork list (UK):

*NB Differences may exist for any non-UK Orion Publishing Group Masterwork series list.

1. Shadow And Claw - Vol 1 of Book Of The New Sun Gene Wolfe
2. Time And Gods Lord Dunsany
3. The Worm Ouroboros E R Eddison
4. Tales of the Dying Earth Jack Vance
5. Little Big John Crowley
6. The Chronicles Of Amber Roger Zelazney
7. Virconium M John Harrison
8. The People of the Black Circle - Conan Chronicles Vol 1 Robert E Howard
9. The Land Of Laughs Johnathan Carroll
10. The Compleat Enchanter L Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt
11. Lud-in-the-mist Hope Mirlees
12. Sword And Citadel - Vol 2 of Book Of The New Sun Gene Wolfe
13. Fevre Dream George R R Martin
14. Beauty Sheri S Tepper
15. The King of Elfland’s Daughter Lord Dunsany
16. The Hour Of The Dragon - Conan Chronicles Vol 2 Robert E Howard
17. Elric Michael Moorcock
18. The First Book Of Lankhmar Fritz Leiber
19. Riddle-Master Patricia A McKillip
20. Time And Again Jack Finney
21. Mistress of Mistresses E R Eddison
22. Gloriana or The Unfulfilled Queen Michael Moorcock
23. The Well Of The Unicorn Fletcher Pratt
24. The Second Book Of Lankhmar Fritz Leiber
25. Voice Of Our Shadow Johnathan Carroll
26. The Emperor Of Dreams Clark Ashton Smith
27. Lyoness: Suldrun’s Garden Jack Vance
28. Peace Gene Wolfe
29. The Dragon Waiting John M Ford
30. The Chronicles Of Corum Michael Moorcock
31. Black Gods And Scarlet Dreams C L Moore
32. The Broken Sword Poul Anderson
33. The House On The Borderland & Other Novels William Hope Hodgson
34. The Drawing Of The Dark Tim Powers
35. Lyoness II: The Green Pearl and Madouc Jack Vance
36. The History of the Runestaff Michael Moorcock
37. A Voyage To Arcturus David Lindsay
38. Darker Than You Think Jack Williamson
39. The Mabinogion Evangeline Walton
40. Three Hearts And Three Lions Poul Anderson
41. Grendel John Gardner
42. The Iron Dragon’s Daughter Michael Swanwick
43. Was Geoff Ryman
44. Song Of Kali Dan Simmons
45. Replay Ken Grimwood
46. Sea King Of Mars and Other Worldy Stories Leigh Brackett
47. Anubis Gates Tim Powers
48. Forgotten Beasts Of Eld Patricia McKillip
49. Something Wicked This Way Comes Ray Bradbury
50. The Mark Of The Beast and other Fantastical Tales - Rudyard Kipling

And that's all she wrote.....

 

[Connavar]

Its a shame FM doesn't go on like the SF.

SF classics have much easier to survive in print compared to fantasy that's clear.

 

[j d worthington]

I have indeed only read Fancies and Goodnights long ago, though I now have The John Collier Reader instead (which loses 8 from F&G in exchange for 5 others and a novel). What I meant was that he doesn't write of Clive Barker's putrefying zombie puppies or whatever the hell was in the thing I read, nor does he write like a "rude pulpster", so to speak - he wrote for the slicks. Perhaps I should have borrowed from his title and said "genteel fancies"? Wasn't meaning to imply anything about his view of humanity.

Sorry about that... I was just taken aback by the description, given his penchant for -- albeit in very precise, meticulous prose -- vivisecting his characters and society, usually while chuckling through the process. Makes Gorey's The Gashlycrumb Tinies come to mind with me, at times....

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

OK, after jogging my mind with a look at my bookshelf specially reserved for some of my favorite books and authors (and wondering why nothing jogged my mind to look there before posting yesterday):

I am astonished that none of us mentioned:

The Earthsea Trilogy by Ursula K. LeGuin (I know there has been a lot of discussion on that one on-and-off). The first three volumes in this saga fit into the time frame and are deservedly classics. Also, I believe, pretty much continuously in print.

The Last Unicorn by Peter S. Beagle (The cartoon is not bad, but the book has a Thurberesque quality, and goes from whimsy to heartbreak and back again, a mixture of dry humor, and both dark and light fantasy.)

And while Lovecraft and Smith came up, how did we fail to mention Algernon Blackwood? You could fit his stories into all sorts of different categories, gothic horror, mysticism, occult, etc. but they all qualify as fantasy, too.

Did we somehow skip over the Gormenghast trilogy, by Mervyn Peake? (I think we did, but I'm not going to go back and look.) No magic or supernatural element but the society it depicts could not possibly exist or function -- nor is it meant to. Characters much large than life ruled by grotesque and sometimes monstrous passions and obsessions within a set of maddeningly meaningless rituals.


Since we've moved on from the question of what Chronicles members are reading and talking about, to just listing pre-1980's fantasy books and authors:

The amazingly prolific Tanith Lee wrote Volkhavaar (influences of Lovecraft) before that cut off date, also the first two books in Tales of the Flat Earth Night's Master and Death's Master (influences of the Arabian Nights), and the first of the Vis novels Storm Lord (very high quality Sword & Sorcery). Lee has a tremendous imagination and writes beautiful prose. Oh, and she also wrote an excellent short novel,The Castle of Dark before 1980.

Excalibur by Sanders Anne Laubenthal. Not what you expect. Takes place in Mobile, Alabama, and draws on the legend of Prince Madoc and his medieval Celtic colony in the American south, as well as the Arthurian cycle. Unlike many books that bring the Arthurian mythos into the twentieth century, there is no reborn Arthur or Merlin. Some mysticism and echoes of Charles Williams.

The Owl Service by Alan Garner. Not related to his two books I mentioned yesterday, and for slightly older readers than the Weirdstone. An ancient tragedy from the Welsh Mabinogion, a drama of love, betrayal, and murder, begins to draw in three modern teenagers.

The Charwoman's Shadow by Lord Dunsany. Not quite so good as The King of Elfland's Daughter which came up yesterday, but still an excellent book.

 

[Fried Egg]

And while Lovecraft and Smith came up, how did we fail to mention Algernon Blackwood? You could fit his stories into all sorts of different categories, gothic horror, mysticism, occult, etc. but they all qualify as fantasy, too.

Thanks for the recommendation; I have not heard of Algernon Blackwood before but he sounds like my cup of tea. Anything specific you would recommend? I had a look on Amazon and it doesn't appear that he has anything currently in print which is unfortunate.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Anything specific you would recommend? I had a look on Amazon and it doesn't appear that he has anything currently in print which is unfortunate.

I much prefer his short stories, novellas, and novelettes to his novels, which are harder to find anyway. You must have been looking at amazon.co.uk, because amazon.com has many collections of his stories, new and used. You can also find some of them online (public domain, so I have no qualms about mentioning this route).