Crisis

FionaW

...who should be writing
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
115
I'm about 2/3 of the way through Name of the Wind at present - and I'm having a crisis. There is an entire scene (the lute/tavern scene) that is terrifyingly similar to a scene in my WIP; as if that wasn't bad enough, later on I came across a paragraph that is so close to one of mine the coincidence is quite alarming. The only difference between them is that my protagonist, being younger, words things somewhat differently.

I'm really careful about this sort of thing - when you're writing in a north european fantasy setting, it's easy for other people's settings/characters to leak over into your own. But the tavern scene in particular is really important for my novel, and I don't know how I can do without it, or even change it significantly. I'll post it here, and those of you who have a copy of NOTW, please compare them, and tell me what you think. (NB I'm not asking for critique, which is why I have posted here. If you want to crit it, let me know and I'll post it in the critique section.
 
So...my version's shorter, because it's part of bigger events, but other than the -spoiler- [broken string], it feels uncomfortably similar:



That evening he pelted back to the palace, changed into his one decent set of clothes, grabbed his instruments and then raced down to the Golden Horn. The doors of the inn were open, but flanking the entrance were two men who looked as if their only purpose was to keep itinerant bards from bothering the customers. They eyed him as he approached, but made no move until he started to step over the threshold, when a meaty arm was abruptly extended in front of his chest.


‘No beggars,’ the man on the right grunted.


Caedun gaped at him. It was one thing to be refused admission, but that was downright insulting. ‘I’m a bard,’ he said, unable to keep the indignation from his voice.


‘He’s a bard,’ the man informed his colleague. ‘Look, kid, we’ve had a couple of dozen minstrels try their luck since
Rellsar had his accident. None of them has lasted more than an evening, and they were all a lot older than you. The Golden Horn has standards. Now go home.’

‘How do you know how good I am if you haven’t heard me?’ Caedun demanded.


The men exchanged amused glances. ‘Trust me, we know,’ the second man said.


‘Caedun, my friend! Have you come to take a drink with me?’ The voice was deep and familiar.


Caedun turned round and looked up…and up. ‘Good evening, Eryion.’

The healer smiled. Now he was no longer forced to stoop in a confined space, he seemed taller than ever. ‘Are you having problems convincing these gentlemen of your merit?’ He rested a hand on Caedun’s shoulder. ‘This young man is bard to King Rhofarn. Did you not mark the dragon?’ He twitched Caedun’s jacket, where tiny gold dragons were embroidered along the seams. ‘He is a young man of exceptional talent, brought by your king from the Sealands to entertain the highest nobility in his house, and you would bar him from your door?’

‘Well, no. But…we’ve been told…’


‘Inside, Caedun,’ Eryion said, pushing him forward.


Living in the palace had blunted his appreciation of wealth, but the interior of the Golden Horn was like no inn he had ever encountered. From its floor of pale, polished wood to the high, whitewashed ceiling, it had an atmosphere of airy light. The room was big enough to hold around two dozen tables, each with a complement of padded chairs, while leaving space for two
servingmen to pass abreast between each. The windows were curtained with pale gold silk and the walls were hung with narrow tapestries depicting courtly scenes.

It was fortunate Eryion kept hold of his shoulder, for he would otherwise have stood and gaped for a full ten minutes. The healer gave him no opportunity to stop, however, guiding him to a vacant table and pressing him into a seat.


‘Wait here,’ he said shortly. He vanished off through a door at the far side of the room. Caedun hunched down in his chair, uncomfortably aware that he was the focus of a lot of attention. He didn’t mind it when he was performing, but it was different when he had the feeling that any minute he would be unceremoniously ejected into the street.


It was a while before Eryion returned. He waved a serving girl across and ordered ale for them both.


‘I can’t,’ Caedun said awkwardly.


Eryion glanced at him, one eyebrow raised. ‘Can’t what?’


‘Can’t drink with you. I have no money to return the favour.’


‘Then you had better sing well, Caedun the bard. I have spoken with the innkeeper. A hard
man, and all my persuasion could only bring him to allow you two songs. He will then decide if you can continue to perform. I suggest you choose wisely. And take the drink as a gift from me, with no obligation attached.’

‘Thank you,’ Caedun
managed, his mouth suddenly dry. When the drinks arrived he was grateful for the cool liquid and sipped slowly, thinking through the many songs he knew. He had to make the right choice. Buran was still not well, and if they couldn’t pay the healer…he dragged himself away from that train of thought, knowing it would distract him and affect his singing. Two songs. Nothing too foreign; it wouldn’t do to show himself as an outsider from the start. Northern songs then, one gentle, one a bit more rousing.

He’d narrowed it down to five choices when a thin, bald man approached them. He nodded to Eryion and then looked at Caedun, not bothering to hide his distaste. ‘You can sit over there,’ he said, pointing at a tall stool in a corner of the room. ‘And if you sing anything lewd you will be removed instantly.’ He sniffed and stalked away.


Caedun walked slowly to the stool, took his lute out of its case and sat down. As he
tuned the strings he noticed that a few people were looking at him with expressions of polite interest, but most of the customers had returned to their drinks and conversation.

He began to play, softly at first, slowly increasing the strength and the tempo. By the time he started the first verse he had the attention of nearly half of them.


‘Fourscore and fifty season’s round and more
When winter’s grip lay on the silent land
Five seekers rode from fair Evarrien’s gate.
They had no thought but glory would they find
And bring a bride to wed the seeker king.’

It was the only choice, in the end. He’d worked on the version he and Treakin had put together, until it could be played on the lute alone. It made the fingering incredibly complex, but he’d had plenty of time to practice while waiting for his voice to settle down, and now his fingers flew over the strings of their own volition, leaving him to concentrate on the words.

It was the right song, he realised as the last notes faded; familiar enough to keep them comfortable, yet in a version none of them had heard before. There was a scatter of applause and several glasses were raised to him. Across the room he could see that the innkeeper’s expression had changed to one of thoughtfulness.


He plucked the strings gently, and the room settled to expectant stillness. He had them, he realised. They wanted to hear more.


‘For she is beauty,
Autumn will not fade her;
Her smile is like the sun the seasons round.
For she is beauty,
Just as Istarn made her
And in her hands my heart is gladly bound.

For she is silence,
When no word is needed
And all the answers lie within her eyes
For she is silence…’

He let go of his surroundings and slipped into the music, letting it pour through him and out, to ride shimmering on the still air. It was a wrench when the last few notes hung for a moment and then faded, to leave a quiet that was strangely painful, as if he had lost forever some small part of himself with the song.

Then they were applauding, Eryion loudest of all, and beyond the healer he could see the innkeeper nodding, allowing him one thin-lipped smile.


...could I be accused of plagiarism?
 
This is the reason I NEVER read the same exact genre I happen to be writing in at the time. Things like this will happen there's no stopping it. We writers all have ideas and every once in awhile scenes will tend to cross or sound similar to another writers work.

The answer is NO. but yes too. You can be ACCUSED of it, but no, you probably won't be as long as your story is different, you didn't take plot elements from the other story or anything else.

A word of advice in the future. DO NOT read books similar to the story you're writing. You'll end up finding things in those stories that sound like yours and you'll be worried to death about whether you're stealing other's works. Or worse, think your story is too similar in plot, characters or other aspects to sell. If you didn't steal it, don't worry about it. Write your story the way it's supposed to be written, your way, and don't worry about similarities.

Finish your story, and sell it. Don't worry about it if you didn't do it. Good writing to you. :)

-ChrisQ
 
Personally I read whatever I want to read and accept the fact that it will to some extent influence what I am writing. That works for some people and not others. If you really do feel it impacting, then stop reading in genre. Plenty of good books in other genres that are unlikely to have tavern scenes of the like. :)
 
Don't sweat it. As long as you're not actually lifting stuff from other people's work, then you should be OK.

Humans generally look for patterns and similarities in things. It's one thing we're really good at picking up on. Two books with similar characters and setting having at least one point of confluence? Not really surprising.

Get finished, get edited, get submitting. If you end up being asked to change it by a publisher because it's a little too similar at times to something at market, at least you can give yourself some mirror high fives for getting into a dialogue with a publisher.
 
This is the reason I NEVER read the same exact genre I happen to be writing in at the time. Things like this will happen there's no stopping it. We writers all have ideas and every once in awhile scenes will tend to cross or sound similar to another writers work.

I think just the opposite. It always seems to me that people who don't read in the genre they are writing tend to write alike ... a lot alike.

But for me, when I read another genre book that I really like (or anything out of genre), I'm not inspired by the scenes I read, but words or phrases that spark off other ideas.

Well, it does sound quite a bit like The Name of the Wind, and I do think that people will assume that you've been ... um ... greatly inspired by the scene in TNOTW. If you've blow them away with the originality of your writing up until then, I don't think you need to worry much (if it were an older book, people could assume that it was an homage, or that you were being clever by writing something self-referential in terms of the genre, or something terribly literary like that, but no such luck here), but if it comes really early in the story, I think it could be a problem for readers who have read the other book.

In that case, I think you need to go over the scene and think about which parts are absolutely necessary in terms of the rest of the story and which parts you just want to keep because you like them.

Frankly, I never liked the scene in the other book. It sounded too much like a modern nightclub. And this one really does. The bouncers at the door, the idea that bards have to "audition" instead of just being welcomed in, the padded chairs. I know this is beginning to sound like something that belongs in the Critiques section, but it really goes to the point of this thread. Because, for me, the feeling he's just walked into a nightclub really makes the similarities stand out. Play down that impression, if you can without having to make too many essential changes to the rest of your book, and I think you'll have a scene that doesn't drive you to seek reassurance from other people.

As for that part where you have a similar paragraph, even without reading it I can't imagine that you have a problem. No one but you (and maybe Patrick Rothfuss) would is likely to notice the similarities in a single paragraph.
 
I think just the opposite. It always seems to me that people who don't read in the genre they are writing tend to write alike ... a lot alike.
That's not exactly what I meant. I meant, they shouldn't read it WHILE they're working on their piece. Nothing will ruin a good story faster than if you feel it's been done before. No matter what, it hasn't (unless you're taking it directly from the author). You are you and that writer is that writer.

You SHOULD be reading the genre you like and write about, BUT not when you're writing your story. I have several genre I thoroughly enjoy and the moment start writing in say, urban fantasy, I start reading sci-fi again, if I'm writing horror, I read whatever else catches my eye, but no the same genre, or the EXACT genre.

Think of it this way, that book that seems so similar to yours has been published. That means it's been through the agents, publishers, editors, etc, at least a year or two ago before it even hit the shelves. Your book might take another year or two to complete, that means 4 years will have passed before you put your book on the market. So, even if your story does seem similar in some way, in 4 years, it won't matter, so why worry about it? Why let yourself worry about it by reading those types of books.

That's just the way I do things. It might help you to read books of the same genre. But for me, it's a big no-no. I only end up finding some strange and obscure book that similar to mine and then I get all depressed about it.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Write and enjoy writing. :)
 
I only end up finding some strange and obscure book that similar to mine and then I get all depressed about it.

You'll feel like that even after the book is published. At least I always do. Possibly worse, because there is nothing you can do about it.

I have to say that I've never changed something on the grounds of its similarity to something else without coming up with something I liked much better. I've never regretted it. It's the things you don't change that come back to haunt you.

If we find out about something too late, then we just have to learn to ignore it.

You say "don't sweat the small stuff." A name or a paragraph is small stuff. A whole scene is not such a little thing.
 
Well I'm totally confused. I haven't read the TNOTW and probably never will but I thought your efforts were OK for what they are. I take Teresa's point about the scene, the padded chairs etc. but if they exist in your NE fantasy world then a they presumably wouldn't out of place in a posh bar. Still if you think it's a problem why not write it differently. I quite liked the

He let go of his surroundings and slipped into the music, letting it pour through him and out...

Though if this has similarities to TNOTW then you get a slap on the wrist.


I always have a slightly anxious moment every time I open a critique. I wonder if I will read the essence of my own story (though so far nothing has come near it). However, there's a lot of books out there and I'm certainly not going to read them all (especially given you know what). If there is one out there with my plot, what am I supposed to do. Stop and tear it all up. I've certainly seen a few plot similarities in my time (let's face it there aren't that many basic scenarios) and that's what I thought at the time. I still read on because this one might work the story better, or have a different twist. It would be nice to have the baddie win for once and this might be the one - kind of thing.

The bar room/night club/vaudeville scene has its place in every genre. Not to have one in your book would almost be perverse. The scene you set out was perfectly valid, I'd just get on with it. If somebody that matters spots the similarity (say a publisher) then if the rest of the book stands up no doubt a gentle suggestion that this need to be re-written will be forthcoming. As long as this isn't the opening scene he wont see it till he's hooked and then you can reel him in (I'm sure that's how it works:))

Course if you start sleeping badly, waking in the night screaming with terrible nightmares of the other author calling you out to account for your heinous crime against his precious lovingly crafted work you know what to do:-

Keep a pad at the side of your bed - get it written down and give him a dedication at the front of the book

With thanks to Splogg Waliterson and the nightmares he inspired
 
Well, I've always felt that if something bothers you enough that you have to ask other people whether you should change it or not, you already know the answer to that question.

If Fiona had just said, "Fah! It's a typical tavern scene, I'll leave it in" and never asked anyone to approve that choice, that would be one thing.

But that isn't what is happening here. The scene makes her uncomfortable, or she would never have asked for opinions. I don't think that telling her to ignore her instincts is a good idea.
If somebody that matters spots the similarity

Someone who matters has: Fiona.
 
Teresa: Er....

TEiN ^

Still if you think it's a problem why not write it differently.

As I said I'm unable to judge the percentage of similarity to the other work so I leave it to others.

However a writer can often see things retrospectively that others can't. I would mark the passage in red text for later review and get on with the rest of the tale.

Not everything has to be perfect before the next section and to get hung up on what might be unnoticed by others could be a bad idea.

Out of interest, is this TNOTW worth the cover price and would I be enriched by it's ownership. If it is, then I might give it a whirl and advise accordingly.
 
Yes, it's worth the read - it's emphatically not a standalone, so as long as that doesn't bother you I'd recommend it. Rothfuss handles the switch between present and past very well, and creates a very believable world. My only quibble is that he keeps dropping hints about what's going to happen next 'i'm about to meet the most beautiful woman in the world' 'X is going to try and kill me' etc. Having come to this from Lisle's Hawkspar, where the story (I felt) is constantly marred by the characters promising new and greater battles the moment a climax is reached, I have become more than a little irritated.

I'm now 1/3 into Best Served Cold, however, which is a classy piece of writing.

I think, as far as my little problem, that I'm going to leave it for now. I'm on a course in 2 weeks time and maybe someone there will have read TNOTW, in which case I'll give them that section to crit and see what happens. After that I'm sending it to the good Mr Jarrold for editing, and I'm sure if he has doubts, he'll let me know!
 
Hi, Fiona ! If it bothers you that much --And it would bother me-- can you interject jugglers, a fight etc ? Show, rather than tell ? Have Brave Young Bard remember rougher houses played ?

Big problem is that tavern scenes are like 'Cheers' episodes, they may only differ in tiny detail, such as characters' entry sequence. They say much the same to each other for much the same reasons, night after night after night...

A new bard in a rough tavern is just more of the same old...

Um, if you'll forgive the whimsical departure, my cousins used to play 'D&D'. A tavern scene was as formulaic as a bodice-ripper or 'Enter Three Orcs'...
 
Hi Fiona,

well, I adore NOTW, one of my most favourite books (and I wish Patrick Rothfuss would stop going on book signings and get on with the writing - April 2010 until book 2!!) so I know the scene intimately. And whilst there are small similarities between yours and his, I feel that the reason he has the scene is twofold: to re-introduce Denna in a spectacular way, and to show Ambrose's continued hatred of him, and the lengths he'll go to, to try to discredit Kvothe. I know that Kvothe is there to try to get a sponsor, so his financial situation will improve drastically but we already know Kvothe is an amazing lutist (looter?) from when he'd stayed in the wilderness, so the audience are not surprised that he wins his pipes.

About the only similarity that I see between you - the dragons and the pipes, the symbol of 'excellence' of the minstrels - is a very small difference and the rest is irrelevance. Your piece has charm, and I liked it very much. The reasons your minstrel is there are unclear, but I assume those have been apparent in the text beforehand? And possibly, I'd do away with Eryion, and have him show the dragons himself, offended by their rudeness... but you don't want critique, sorry!!

Accused of plagiarism? No way. If so, then JK Rowling can accuse Patrick of the same - disadvantaged kid goes to 'special' school to learn magical skills, one teacher takes an instant dislike to him, people try to kill him etc etc.

Leave it as it is, it's good enough on its own merits.:)

Good luck

Boneman
 
I think I'm becoming a little less frantic about this now. You're right, tavern scenes are pretty ubiquitous, so it's probably not as noticeable as I thought at first.

My set up for this scene is that a very close friend of Caedun's has been whipped for something he didn't do (taking the blame for someone else, who wasn't at fault either). Caedun may be the king's bard, but the king is a miser and Caedun gets little more than room and board. He desperately needs to earn money to pay the healer and buy materials for dressings and so on. A soldier tells him that the bard at a very upmarket tavern has fallen and broken his arm, so Caedun decides to try his luck there.

I need to show that he can earn a living with his music; it's important later on.

It's very strange reading this scene - I wrote it so long ago it feels like it was written by someone else. Does anyone else ever get that? The slightly bemused feeling of reading something, knowing that you wrote it, and yet not really being able to remember how you wrote it?
 
Last edited:
It's very strange reading this scene - I wrote it so long ago it feels like it was written by someone else. Does anyone else ever get that? The slightly bemused feeling of reading something, knowing that you wrote it, and yet not really being able to remember how you wrote it?

All the time. And especially now as I am sitting down to work on a new effort. I keep muttering to myself that I am a fraud, that it was really the keyboard ghost that wrote all the other stuff littering my hard drive, not me.

My mind is wandering of in all directions, jumping forward to scenes that are weeks away from writing. (I have to follow a very linear path else my anal rententiveness kicks in lol). I just need to focus and convince myself I can actually write this.

As to your crisis;

Do what you feel is right for the story, don't worry about what other writers haver done. Though I am one to talk, last year I was submitting a novel to agents which had as part of its plot a murder committed on the Western Front during the 1914-18 war. Guess what, Ben Elton's book "The First Casualty" (about a murder on the Western front) was published. Talk about having kittens! :eek: Turned out the book was nothing like my story. So try not to worry just about a scene. It happens more often than not in books, just chance for the main.
 

Similar threads


Back
Top