When/Why will Howland Reed appear.

[Zoboomafoo]

Hey if this has been discussed previously I apologize, but I didn't see any recent threads on the subject so I thought I'd do a new one.

So my question to all the conspiracy theorists out there is this. When will Howland Reed make his first apperance in the novels, and what circumstances will draw him out of the background?

I think he is often overlooked as a very important future player, in that he is probably the only man in the world who knows the truth about the parentage of Jon Snow.

However, I'm at a loss in coming up with any good reasons as to why he might leave Greywater Watch and seek out Jon.

Then again, everybody seems to think the Wall is coming down at some point, so maybe Jon is going to find Howland instead of the other way around. In that case, why/how does Jon find Greywater Watch?

Please lets hear all theories...even the crazy ones

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I think that Jon will lose the Wall one way or another, and he will be relieved of duty by the king. As such, he will be able to get involved in the wars down south. And then, in order to claim his birthright, he will probably need to seek out someone to confirm his heritage. I believe that it was said that if you come in peace (hm..) that you will be able to find Greywater Watch. I can't imagine that Howland will leave his castle for anything. He does seem like quite the recluse.

 

[Boaz]

Zoboo, Welcome to the GRRM forum.

Since TK (our resident research monkey) has not already posted, I'll assist him. An older thread "promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed" has seen a lot of discussion about our favorite unseen adn enigmatic character. But I don't particularly recall discusion/debate specifically detailing his first appearance nor of the plot developments that will reveal him.

Interesting thoughts on Jon finding Howland. In another thread, Illifer (A Dance with Dragons: Speculation?) mentioned his belief that the Wall would be thrown down and the Night's Watch would retreat all the way to the Trident. Greywater Watch happens to be on the way from Castle Black to the Trident... The bittersweet ending could be that Howland Reed tells Jon that Rhaegar legally married Lyanna and that Jon is the legal heir to the Iron Throne, but Jon refuses to renege his oath to the NW and returns to the Wall after defeating The Other.

Please lets hear all theories...even the crazy ones

As far as I'm concerned, these are the only kind.

Howland Reed was befriended by Lyanna twenty years ago. He attempted to return the favor, but only arrived in time to see her die. In a first attempt to repay his debt to the Starks, he sent his two children to befriend Bran. But in ADOS, Sansa finds herself a hapless prisoner of Littlefinger's mad quest for power... so Howland rides off to a second "Tower of Joy" to rescue Sansa. Or... maybe Dany gains the Iron Throne and decides to execute Sansa, Rickon, and Jon for treason, but Howland turns up to set the record straight.

 

[Ursa major]

...and is executed for his pains, perhaps before he's able to tell us all what we all want to know.




(That's if Lady Stoneheart doesn't get to him first.)

 

[TK-421]

Well, Boaz beat me to it and indeed that thread is the most extensive on Howland Reed.

This old one also raises some interesting theories:
spoiler:knight of the laughingtree=jon

But, Ursa, why would Stoneheart want to execute Howland? Or did you mean Jon?

 

[Ursa major]

But if Howland Reed had/was the key to Jon's survival and Lady Stoneheart were to know this....

 

[viZion]

I don't see why Lady Stoneheart would want Jon dead. Sure, Catelyn hated Jon but I don't think that hatred extends to wanting him dead for the hell of it. I think her focus is more on killing Freys and Lannisters than anything. She just wants some vengeance.

 

[Ursa major]

Poor Brienne is neither a Lannister nor a Frey, so we could assume that any bad feelings she had about people before her transformation have been turned into murderous desire and (where possible) murderous action.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

TK-

I just read through that entire linked tread and am I the only person who never really gave any credence to Howland being the Knight of Laughing Tree. I always figured it Lyanna and pretty obviously so... Is this one of those things where I'm going to discover I'm in the minority of fandom where it never even occured to me that I was taking a disputed posistion?

On that other thread Raven seems to me to be cleaning everybody's clock advocating for Lyanna as the KotLT, so what does everybody hanging out here these days think? Howland, Lyanna, or somebody else as one the more mysterious characters from in our little series?

 

[TK-421]

Poor Brienne is neither a Lannister nor a Frey, so we could assume that any bad feelings she had about people before her transformation have been turned into murderous desire and (where possible) murderous action.

But Brienne is "in" with Jaime Lannister and the sword that Stoneheart looks over proves it. Unfortunately for Jaime, he is at the top of Stoneheart's shitlist and he happens to be at Riverrun at the end of AFFC.

As for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, I am unsure. I just cannot see it being Lyanna but Howland is such a nebulous character...I have to go re-read the thread in greater detail.

The discussion seemed to continue in another thread:
Knight of Laughing Tree (from old post by Midnight)

 

[Ursa major]

Brienne is "in" with Jaime only because of Catelyn's own actions. (Jaime's behaviour, and Brienne's view of the world, did the rest.)

But that's beside the point. The fact remains that Catelyn did not like Jon when she was herself; now that she has become undead and, possibly, completely unhinged, I wouldn't put anything past her.

 

[viZion]

Nah, it's too great a stretch. You're treading on Boaz territory here. Catelyn feels like Brienne betrayed her. She has no reason to care about Jon or running around trying to kill Howland Reed or any of that. Her focus is on Lannisters not on preventing Jon from living or making sure no one finds out who his real parents are.

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that by your logic, Ursa, just about every character in the book is a possible target of Catelyn's. Why not go after the Tyrells or the Martells or anyone else who has ever been friendly with a Lannister? I think even the original Catelyn had pretty much put Jon out of her mind after he went to the Wall. I'm pretty sure she wasn't privy to Robb's succession plans so there's no reason for her to have ever spared Jon another thought.

 

[SerRodrik]

Hey guys im new here so please bear with me. I just searched 'is howland reed important' in google and i ended up here so i thought i might add my brief thoughts on Mr Reed.
I have always thought the two most important characters to the future of the series were going to be Howland Reed or Benjen(thats a different discussion)Stark. Its always seemed strange that we are yet to see him as he seemed such a close character to Ned and potentially knows alot of information usefull to other characters (jon parents etc). With so much theory going around that he has some old god magic to him and the concept that we have seen him allready and not known it. This may sound stupid as its been a while since i read the books but can anybody come up with a solid argument that Jojen Reed is not actually Howland in some weird magical disguise. I apologise if this has allready been discussed but i thought it worth being added.

 

[Zoboomafoo]

for all the "does Stoneheart want to kill Jon" discussion. Here are my thoughts.

I don't believe that Stoneheart would go out of her way to find and kill Jon. But lets face it, she's not in the most mentally stable person walking Westeros, so if she somehow does cross paths with Jon someday in the future...I wouldn't put it past her to try and kill Lord Snow. Of course I can't really come up with any plausible ways for them to cross paths, seeing how I think she will be busy in the south Frey/Lannister hunting.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Yes, I think ole Stoneheart is a long way down on Jon's list of dangers; perhaps somewhere after the Others, Melisandre, Roose Bolton and Reek, and even Danys' army.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

SerRodrik-

welcome (have I been around here enough to be welcoming folks yet?) I feel like the burden of proof is on you... i'm happy to entertain the idea that Jojen is really Howland in some kind of magical disguise, but I don't really feel like Jojen's green sight is really reason enough to posit such a radical idea. It's hard (impossible, really) to prove a negative, and absent some striking evidence in favor of the idea, doesn't it make more sense to assume Jojen is more or less exactly what he seems?

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

I more or less agree with Zoboomafu. While UnCat might have some abstract interest in hanging Jon if she came across him, but the dream of killing Lord Snow is certainly not something that keeps her up at night. She's focused on revenging herself on those responsible for her family's death. The Lannisters and, primarily, the Freys.

I think it's more or less a moot point anyway, as I expect Lady Stoneheart to be disposed of long before Jon makes his way to River Lands (assuming that he does end up there, no sure thing, though I'd bet pretty heavily in its favor). When last we saw UnCat, her Brotherhood Without Banners seemed to me distinctly uncomfortable with her leadership, they'd lost whatever nobility of purpose united them under Lord Beric and it seemed to me anyway that the situation would soon become untenable.

I don't really have any good sense of who's likely to take her down... Maybe Jaime will come looking for her to avoid returning to King's Landing, maybe Thoros (really, the heart and soul of the brotherhood) will take steps, he didn't seem at all comfortable with R'Hallor's newest servant down in that cave. Maybe Gendry will take offense at the treatment of the woman who saved his life ... I'm sure there are all kinds of other swell possibilities I'm missing, but I just don't see UnCat hanging around all that long.

 

[Ursa major]

Yay! Boazland!


I too do not think UnCat will materially affect Jon's life (or death).

I just thought it might be more tragic if he survived all those other mortal dangers only to fall victim to a bitterness that has existed since his birth (or whenever Cat first became aware of him).

 

[JDP]

Well, don't say you didn't ask for it: ##spoilers ahoy!##



Your original question is moot; we've already met Howland Reed.

Reed is, in fact, a split personality of Eddard. Lyanna, on her death bed, recognised the deep-rooted psychosis in her brother and made him vow to suppress the enigmatic 'Reed' persona, the reason why nobody else has ever actually seen the so-called 'Howland Reed' ("Promise me, Ned.").

Because of this, Meera and Jojen are actually half-siblings of the Stark brood, hence them sharing their affinity with the Children (Green Dreams, warging etc.).

In truth, Greywater Watch is nothing more than a floating shack in the marshes, where a mad Eddard kept his mistress and illegitimate family.

The psychosis was originally triggered by the murder of Eddard's brother and father at the hands of the Mad King. 'Reed' was Eddard's way of maintaining his 'honourable-than-thou' attitude in the face of life's brutal injustices and the meaninglessness of 'honour'; he used the Reed persona to act outside his own rigid moral framework.

However, whilst raising Jon, I believe that Eddard impressed upon the boy the 'Reed' persona, forcing it into the cracks within Jon's own frangible sense of self through a brainwashing process of neglect/abandonment coupled with sporadic positive reinforcement.

Following Ned's death upon the steps of Baelor's Sept, 'Reed' exists only in the fragile mind of Jon, waiting to break free once more.

Historically, the folk of the North know of Howland Reed only through rumour and hear-say. The story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree was told to Meera and Jojen by the 'Reed' persona (neither knew that their father was, in fact, Eddard Stark). Everyone remembers the tourney where Rheagar overlooked his own wife as Queen of Love and Beauty in favour of Lyanna; yet no-one else speaks of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Odd, perhaps that no living character in Westeros has actually met Reed? No, I think not. When Jon cracks, Reed will resurface.

Q.E.D.

I rest my case, m'lud.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

JDP has my vote for craziest theory.