The bible as a fiction

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chongjasmine

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If you remove the 'bible is inspired by god' from the bible itself and see it as a fictional book written by men, what genre will you classify the bible under?

I will probably classify it under the fantasy genre.

1) There are God and gods mentioned in the bible.
2) The miracles in the bible can be seen as magic.
3) There are dragon mentioned in the final book of the bible, the revelation.

What are some of the themes you will think the bible contains if it is a mere fictional book?
 
Treading warily here...

IMHO, it is down-market edutainment: A collation of cautionary tales, urban legend and sanitised oral history, with a heap of spin-doctored propaganda stirred in...
 
I wouldn't put it under the heading of fiction per se (that is, as the term is generally used), but rather under myths and legends, alongside Hesiods's Theogony, the Homerica, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and the like....
 
Oooohh and the Thread went BOOM. I agree with JD, myths, legends half forgotten facts; an epic up there with Homer and the Silmarillion...

Now back away from the thread, do not return to the thread, stand at a safe distance.
 
I've always maintained that the bible is a work of fantasy! And dont forget that the world Bible simply means book!

It should be kept in mind that the word Bible, like many other words (most words in fact) have multiple meanings. One meaning does not negate all others.
 
Under those conditions it is Fantasy imo (or maybe self-help?), but to be fair if you see Eintsein's Theory of Relativity as a fictional idea written by a man, it's Science Fiction. Not sure where you can go with it.
 
Aren't the "gods" mentioned in the Bible false gods and therefore not gods at all?

Well, no. There has been some work done on this, for instance, and what you often have are traces of the Jewish tradition before they become monotheistic. There is no indication, for instance, that the "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" bit refers only to "false gods", whereas there is some reason to take that reading when it comes to the reference to creating "graven images" -- though this, too, is open to interpretation, and could refer to images of actual gods or imaginary deities (speaking within the views of the originators of the Bible, that is....).
 
I'm sorry J.D., but I do not agree. Isaiah 45: 21-22 quite clearly states "And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other." Therefore any other "god" is false. The Bible is, after all, a book promoting monotheism, not polytheism.
 
Well if I were young again, and working at the Barnes&Noble... I'd put the Christian Bible in the Epic Fantasy section.

Actually, if done properly, the Bible could find itself in the Graphic Novel section... think of it, Jesus as a cloaked samurai, cocked and loaded for action.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/us/10manga.html
 
I'm sorry J.D., but I do not agree. Isaiah 45: 21-22 quite clearly states "And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other." Therefore any other "god" is false. The Bible is, after all, a book promoting monotheism, not polytheism.

No, parts of the Bible promote monotheism (and even that can be seriously debated, and has been, by experts on comparative religion), but other parts cleary show evidences of earlier traditions. Take a look at the history of the Bible, including the provenance of the various books, and how it was influenced by the religions of the surrounding region, and you'll find that portions of it indicate anything but a belief that only one god was real.

Remember that this isn't a single book, but rather a collection or compendium of many books, spaced out over several centuries. The Bible as a whole contradicts itself frequently on many, many issues; this is only one of them.

However, I do think the Bible (especially the KJV) should be seen as literature, and worthy of study on that level, at least. As literature, the King James version of the Bible is one of the most beautiful examples of English literature (and yes, I said English literature -- I am talking about this particular translation, which takes some major liberties with the original material, for various reasons, including James' own nuttiness in various regards). It has also had an enormous impact on Western culture for the majority of the past 1000-1700 years, and is as important in understanding the classics of Western literature as is a knowledge of the Graeco-Roman myths.
 
Thank you for your thoughts. I don't agree with them but I respect you too much to attempt firm footing on what is sure to be little more than a theological Mobius strip. All I have to say is in my previous post. I'll let it stand at that.
 
Here we go again:-

And God said let us make man in our image.

Now I can't read the original Hebrew text. However, I've never read any contradiction of this well established line so I assume that is indeed what it says.

This to me implies that either there was more than one being that god considered to be equal in species if not rank. (and not created by god - as he would have mentioned it). I'm pretty sure that I saw a program on the early Jewish belief system that suggested that originally they supported a two god system (one male and one female) which would support this multi god beginning.


 
unless our is refrerring to the holy trinity? But I guess that coulkd open a whole new kettle of fish lol

anyway I'd def put it in fantasy.
 
No, parts of the Bible promote monotheism (and even that can be seriously debated, and has been, by experts on comparative religion), but other parts cleary show evidences of earlier traditions. Take a look at the history of the Bible, including the provenance of the various books, and how it was influenced by the religions of the surrounding region, and you'll find that portions of it indicate anything but a belief that only one god was real.

Remember that this isn't a single book, but rather a collection or compendium of many books, spaced out over several centuries. The Bible as a whole contradicts itself frequently on many, many issues; this is only one of them.

However, I do think the Bible (especially the KJV) should be seen as literature, and worthy of study on that level, at least. As literature, the King James version of the Bible is one of the most beautiful examples of English literature (and yes, I said English literature -- I am talking about this particular translation, which takes some major liberties with the original material, for various reasons, including James' own nuttiness in various regards). It has also had an enormous impact on Western culture for the majority of the past 1000-1700 years, and is as important in understanding the classics of Western literature as is a knowledge of the Graeco-Roman myths.

Shakespeare read the Geneva Bible and that too was nicely written and clearly influenced him.

Re your point, I agree that the Bible evolved from a competition among gods to a monotheistic concept. Then we arrive post New Testament at the notion of the Holy Trinity, which is hard to read as anything other than a confused tightrope walk between mono and polytheism.
 
Here we go again:-

And God said let us make man in our image.

Now I can't read the original Hebrew text. However, I've never read any contradiction of this well established line so I assume that is indeed what it says.

This to me implies that either there was more than one being that god considered to be equal in species if not rank. (and not created by god - as he would have mentioned it). I'm pretty sure that I saw a program on the early Jewish belief system that suggested that originally they supported a two god system (one male and one female) which would support this multi god beginning.


unless our is refrerring to the holy trinity? But I guess that coulkd open a whole new kettle of fish lol

anyway I'd def put it in fantasy.

That latter point has been argued frequently, but it doesn't quite hold up on examination. The first verse of Genesis uses "Elohim" (gods, plural), and much of the Old Testament varies between this and El (god -- singular); gradually this became replaced by Yahweh, Adonai, etc. -- other evidences of the shift from polytheism to monotheism.

It is interesting to compare the older texts of the Bible for insights into this, as the Dead Sea Scrolls make the issue much clearer; the wording from later (nearly 1000 years later) texts tend much more toward the monotheistic stance, but still retain occasional usages which are traces of the original, polytheistic stance.

This is what the Columbia Encyclopedia (online version) has to say on the subject:

The history of Judaism predates the period to which the term itself actually refers, in that Judaism formally applies to the post-Second Temple period, while its antecedents are to be found in the biblical “religion of Israel.” The Bible is no longer considered a homogeneous work; the many traditions represented in it demonstrate variance and growth. While the historicity of the patriarchs' existence and of Moses as the giver of all laws is under question, certain dominant themes can be seen developing in this early period that have importance for later Judaism.

Central to these themes is the notion of monotheism, which most scholars believe to have been the outgrowth of a process that began with polytheism, progressed to henotheism (the worship of one god without denying the existence of others), and ended in the belief in a single Lord of the universe, uniquely different from all His creatures. He is compassionate toward His creation, and in turn humans are to love and fear (i.e., stand in awe of) Him. Because God is holy, He demands that His people be holy, righteous, and just, a kingdom of priests to assist in the fulfillment of His designs for humankind and the world.

Those interested in tracing the development of the Bible may also want to look at this:

NOVA | Transcripts | The Bible's Buried Secrets | PBS

There are dozens (at least) of other references online concerning this, and a good deal more has been written about it in scholarly journals and the like.

However, this is part of why I would differentiate between the Bible as fiction -- that is, a consciously created narrative depicting events and persons known to be imaginary, primarily for the purpose of entertainment (though possibly having didactic intent as well) -- and myth and legend, which represents a gradually evolved system of beliefs and tales centered around those beliefs and/or those who most strongly represented them (or their implications), something which is thought to be factual in basis and possibly as a whole. One is a conscious, deliberate artifice with a particular set of intentions; the other may in part be conscious in origin -- an attempt to understand the reality of existence and the universe, with limited experience and knowledge of the nature of that reality -- but that aspect has been long lost to posterity, and what we have instead are genuine beliefs (even if, as belief systems, they are no longer practiced); thus having quite a different set of intentions.

The closest we can come these days to the latter is the parable type of fiction, which itself has evolved from these preexisting belief systems and their tendency to utilize fictional techniques as analogies or examples of certain precepts or ideas in action.

As such, the Bible, being a compendium which has been altered, rearranged, had numerous books rejected or accepted by various movements (which has involved some very peculiar things, such as passages even in the KJV which call attention to citations of books which were rejected from the canon -- and therefore which are not in the KJV -- by the Council of Nicea as "corroborative evidence"), been translated in various ways, with often quite different results, und so weiter, represents a very gradually evolved set of beliefs and legends; and this, not surprisingly, often reflects that slow, gradual alteration in inconsistencies, oddly contrasting phraseology (sometimes within the same verse), and general conception of even the nature of the earth and sky, "hell" (to use the usage of the KJV, which -- depending on what part of the Bible it is from -- is used for quite different concepts; even in the New Testament, it can be a "translation" for "Gehenna" or "the grave"), and the like.

It's a fascinating study and rich in what it offers for an understanding of how the human mind and emotions work, not to mention offering a very rich source of allusions and references which any writer will find of enormous value -- after all, as with the other mythological systems, these are often very potent symbolic distillations of particular ideas, concepts, and themes of deep emotional significance to us as human beings.
 
JD is right. The Bible is a religious text, belonging more properly with myth/legend and ancient history than with fiction. Parts of it may indeed be fictional (for instance, the stories about Daniel) but that argument descends into multiple cases of "author's intention" and that is a hole from which there is no escape. I doubt very much that its components were ever intended to be read or regarded as fiction - ask an Aboriginal if his/her traditional tribal Dreamtime stories are meant as fiction, simply because they are not true - to call them fiction is to miss the point.
 
Well, I kind of thought S.gal meant it more as a hypothetical question, as in "How would you classify it if it were fiction?" Otherwise, I have to agree with everyone that it isn't fiction, it's a compilation of myths and legends, although I would also say that myths do contain at least a grain on truth.

I had an honors mythology class in college. The instructor was Jewish, and the first assignment she gave was Chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis. She wanted to show us the difference between the "J" and "P" versions of the Torah, explaining that it had originally been written with both men and women being created at the same time, then later it was changed to say that men were created first. This revealed a process of change, how the society moved away from egalitarianism toward patriarchy. This is the first point.

The second is that, while she believed in the truth of the Torah, as a scholar she still considered the Bible mythology, not as a completely accurate account of the history of the world. There is history in the Bible, it just needs to be sorted out from other, less historical accounts.
 
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