Neanderthals used make-up

[J-WO]

Vitamin D production depends on sunlight, not temperature. If they were living in the location of modern Spain/Greece etc, why would they be any less dark than the current inhabitants of those lands?

True enough for those in Greece and Spain, but what about the more northerly climes? What applied to Homo Sapiens spreading across Europe would surely apply to Neanderthal. And I imagine the Ice ages cloud cover would preclude a lot of sunlight as well as temperature.

On the other hand, I might be missing something. I'm no expert on any of this.

 

[HareBrain]

True enough for those in Greece and Spain, but what about the more northerly climes? What applied to Homo Sapiens spreading across Europe would surely apply to Neanderthal. And I imagine the Ice ages cloud cover would preclude a lot of sunlight as well as temperature.

On the other hand, I might be missing something. I'm no expert on any of this.

Interesting question - when did northern Europeans become white? I know there were no humans in Britain during the last ice age (though there were before: Boxgrove Man was 250,000 years old if I remember right) so I assume there weren't in other northern climes either - France might have been the northerly extent of their range, and the sun was probably strong enough there (in combination with unwashed skins, which helps vitamin D production because of the oils, unless that was a piece of nonsense I read once).

But 10,000 years is surely not enough time to develop white skins, longer noses etc.

Just thought: aren't Inuit fairly dark? You'd have thought they would need as much whiteness as possible.

 

[The Judge]

Interesting question - when did northern Europeans become white?

But 10,000 years is surely not enough time to develop white skins, longer noses etc.

I recall reading that it was about 15,000-18,000 years ago, so not that long really.

The darker complexion of Inuit, might it have something to do with the effect of the sunlight on snow? If there isn't enough sun during winter months to give pale skin any advantage, and then too much sun/sun effect during the summer which would make pale skin a liability, there's no evolutionary pressure to change any further, perhaps.

J

 

[Dimentio]

The Neanderthals were never more than 3000 in numbers. I actually think they were merged into Homo Sapiens. On Neanderthal remnants, they have found genetic traces indicated that the Neanderthals were blonde and red-haired. The Neanderthals only existed in Europe and Asia Minor, and blonde hair is only existing naturally in Europe.

 

[Parson]

The Neanderthals were never more than 3000 in numbers. I actually think they were merged into Homo Sapiens. On Neanderthal remnants, they have found genetic traces indicated that the Neanderthals were blonde and red-haired. The Neanderthals only existed in Europe and Asia Minor, and blonde hair is only existing naturally in Europe.

Only 3000? Wherever did you find that figure? As for merging in with modern humans, it didn't happen. We have common ancestors way, way, back but DNA suggests that there was little or no interbreeding.

http://www.jqjacobs.net/anthro/paleo/neanderthal.html

 

[Dimentio]

Only 3000? Wherever did you find that figure? As for merging in with modern humans, it didn't happen. We have common ancestors way, way, back but DNA suggests that there was little or no interbreeding.

http://www.jqjacobs.net/anthro/paleo/neanderthal.html

My fault. I meant 30 000. Estimates from the size of settlements and the numbers of settlement indicate that they at most were 30 000. That DNA shows no interbreeding doesn't disqualify that some genomes might have been transferred to modern human beings. The Neanderthals were so few that they probably were easily assimilated into the hundreds of thousands of Cro Magnon humans who immigrated from the south-east.

 

[Parson]

My fault. I meant 30 000. Estimates from the size of settlements and the numbers of settlement indicate that they at most were 30 000. That DNA shows no interbreeding doesn't disqualify that some genomes might have been transferred to modern human beings. The Neanderthals were so few that they probably were easily assimilated into the hundreds of thousands of Cro Magnon humans who immigrated from the south-east.

Hmmmm, dubious methinks. Without a complete DNA profile of Neanderthals, no one wants to go out on a limb and say with absolute certainty, but science certainly points away from significant genome transfer. (I assume that when you say "That DNA shows no interbreeding doesn't dfisqualify that some genomes might have been transferred..." that you mean "little interbreeding" because I am flummoxed as to how a stone age culture could pass along genomes without inter breeding.)

 

[Dimentio]

Hmmmm, dubious methinks. Without a complete DNA profile of Neanderthals, no one wants to go out on a limb and say with absolute certainty, but science certainly points away from significant genome transfer. (I assume that when you say "That DNA shows no interbreeding doesn't dfisqualify that some genomes might have been transferred..." that you mean "little interbreeding" because I am flummoxed as to how a stone age culture could pass along genomes without inter breeding.)

Ah. ^^

I meant that due to the few number of Neanderthals in Europe during the time of the Cro Magnon immigration, the interbreeding which occurred did not affect the genome of the Cro Magnon population so much. Instead, the Neanderthals vanished, due to their fewer numbers. I am in agreement that this is only a theory, and most scientists are rejecting it due to a lack of proof.

 

[Moontravler]

Excuse me for being overcome...- I've just found this website and this is my first post here. I just cannot believe there are so many threads in the history section...

I actually joined for the ..-you know, the SFF thing, hoping to find some fellow SF geeks, and there I scroll down and find this fantastic history forum.

Please excuse my off-topicness, and my... er.. the lack of erudition in this post, but I just need to somehow express my heartfelt glee and happiness at having found all of you. Oh...

*happiness*
*Me puts on some lipstick to appear on-topic*

/me looks back at the thread and wonders if general consensus still says that homo sapiens has its roots in Africa....Oh, nevermind, actually.

 

[Ursa major]

Welcome to the Chrons, Moontravler.

And yes: although it is focused at the SFF community, there are all sorts of things to talk about on this site (if only because the SFF community - as represented here - is interested in all sorts of things).

But we still like to talk about SF and Fantasy. If you want to, you can put something about the types of SFF you like in a (your) thread in the Introductions section.

 

[Moontravler]

Thanks, will do, and so sorry about the off-topic, but at the book and gaming sites I normally frequent, nobody ever wants to talk history with me, so please excuse my momentary loss of self-control there.

 

[The Judge]

I've been thinking about this. As far as I can see from this report, the scientists have found traces of pigment on shells, which shells are in some way associated with two separate centres of Neanderthal habitation (three if you count the black pigment one). How do they leap from that to concluding the Neanderthals wore body paint? Why couldn't they have used the pigment for daubing on walls? Why couldn't it be they liked pretty coloured shells to look at? Granted this might still evidence some form of symbolic thinking (well, perhaps not the pretty shells) but it seems a bit different to what they're saying. Also, they refer to 'complex recipes', but unless the pigments involve ingredients sourced from a distance, why couldn't the 'recipes' have just been a matter of chance discovery, ie children messing about with mud?

OK, I'm too lazy to do any further research, but am I missing something here?



PS Welcome aboard, Moontravler. You want to talk history - find a thread and go for it!

 

[Parson]

Well said, your honor !

I had been thinking along similar lines myself but was hesitant to say something like this because I was sure that there must be some obvious clues and insights I was missing.

 

[The Judge]

Well, there you are, Parson. Fools rush in where angels - and Parsons - fear to tread!

 

[Parson]

I didn't say that. I wouldn't say that.

I would say that my advancing years has taught me advancing humility about my insights and abilities. Unfortunately more of this seems rather needed.

 

[clovis-man]

A quote from ironictimes.com:

Find: Neanderthal Men Wore Makeup
Took forever to get ready.

 

[J-WO]

Newromanticerthals.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Neanderthal behaviour is increasingly regarded as much more complex these days - highlighted by the latest discovery of circles made using stalagmites, deep within a cave system, that is believed could only have been used before human settlement:
Neanderthals built mystery underground circles 175,000 years ago

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Maybe they were really a different flavour of human. After all the difference between various diverse groups today is huge.

 

[J Riff]

War paint.