Tales and Their Mottoes....

[j d worthington]

A short while ago, in the thread on "The Festival", Wilum raised the question of the motto for that particular tale, and what we are to make of it in light of the tale (and vice versa). As I mentioned there, I've given the general subject of his epigrams some thought, and wondered what, if anything, others might have made of this topic. So, I decided to start a thread to discuss the relevance (or lack of such) different people might see between different stories and their mottos.

To get the ball rolling, I thought I'd go for one of his best-known tales, "The Dunwich Horror", with its lovely epigram from Charles Lamb's essay, "Witches, and Other Night-Fears":

“Gorgons, and Hydras, and Chimaeras—dire stories of Celaeno and the Harpies—may reproduce themselves in the brain of superstition—but they were there before. They are transcripts, types—the archetypes are in us, and eternal. How else should the recital of that which we know in a waking sense to be false come to affect us at all? Is it that we naturally conceive terror from such objects, considered in their capacity of being able to inflict upon us bodily injury? O, least of all! These terrors are of older standing. They date beyond body—or without the body, they would have been the same. . . . That the kind of fear here treated is purely spiritual—that it is strong in proportion as it is objectless on earth, that it predominates in the period of our sinless infancy—are difficulties the solution of which might afford some probable insight into our ante-mundane condition, and a peep at least into the shadowland of pre-existence.”

For those who would like to look at the entire essay (which, as with several of Lamb's other essays, is a delightful and thought-provoking read) -- this:

Charles Lamb - Witches And Other Night-Fears

Just in case you see things there which may be germane to the discussion. And, just to make things easier for those who don't have a copy of the story easily at hand:

"The Dunwich Horror" by H. P. Lovecraft

 

[w h pugmire esq]

It is an interesting epigraph when we relate it to the story itself, which I have never done. Indeed, I never really read it closely and pondered its significance. It finds its echo within the tale, powerfully, with "The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, the Old Ones shall be." They are eternal, and eternally potent. And we have always sensed them, and are somehow linked to them. I've made some slight references to this in my own Mythos tales, the fascinating link between these beings beyond time and dimension and the human race. S. T. would have us believe, I think, that we are of no importance to such cosmic beings, and yet there is in "The Dunwich Horror" a very significant link. We, poor worms that we are, enable the Great Old Ones to return. I find this so fascinating, and also the link between the book of a mad Arab and the Whateley's use of that book in helping the Old Ones find a way into our realm once more. All of this is perhaps why Joshi finds the story a failure -- the role of humanity is too stressed, too important, in the cosmic scheme of things. I like it, it opens up so much potential for future exploration in Mythos fiction. There is a contradiction, perhaps, when we read, from Lamb, "They date beyond body -- or without the body, they would have been the same..." This suggests that they exist without us puny mortals, so why they would "need" or seek through influence of dream or magick our assistance in their return makes little sense; but within the realm of phantasy, a pox of common sense, I say. The core of the epigraph is that the Old Ones are an eternal thing beyond our comprehension -- their very title, the Old Ones, tells us this explicitly. There be some mortals who sense them moreso than others, such as the artistic dreamers in "The Call of Cthulhu" and the degenerate strange folk in Dunwich. I find it all very intoxicating and love to think on it, deeply and imaginatively.

 

[j d worthington]

There is a contradiction, perhaps, when we read, from Lamb, "They date beyond body -- or without the body, they would have been the same..." This suggests that they exist without us puny mortals, so why they would "need" or seek through influence of dream or magick our assistance in their return makes little sense; but within the realm of phantasy, a pox of common sense, I say.

I myself didn't read it that way, but rather that they themselves are beyond body... they do not necessarily or naturally have a physical form... which would fit in with the "airy presences" felt throughout the story and, to some degree (though he can be said to have a physical form or body) to Wilbur's brother as well, I think. This is one aspect of it.

The other is, as you point out, that the connection between us spiritually dates from before our physical existence, and places that connection in the realm of spirit (which is, I assume, what Lamb had in mind) -- an odd concept for Lovecraft the mechanistic materialist, but at this point he was still moving between the presence of such ideas and a strict materialism in his fiction (cf. The Case of Charles Dexter Ward, "The Shunned House", "The Unnamable", etc.) On this level, the relationship of the motto to the tale has an almost Biblical resonance (quite intentional, I suspect, given the relationship of the banishment of Wilbur's brother to the scene on Golgotha), placing the story firmly in the realm of myth, with all the powerful associations that carries.

I have some other thoughts, but I'm a bit short on time at the moment, so those will have to wait. In the meantime, while I lean toward Joshi's view that this is, if not something of an artistic failure (by no means a complete one, and only on certain levels) at least a strong example of inconsistency in Lovecraft's approach, I also think you have argued very cogently elsewhere (such as your vlog) for a different view of the tale, and that deserves some serious consideration, too....

Anyway, thank you for bringing in your thoughts; this is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for with the thread.... I hope we hear from some others on this topic, as I think it has a lot of potential to be a fruitful approach to HPL's work....

 

[w h pugmire esq]

I myself didn't read it that way, but rather that they themselves are beyond body... they do not necessarily or naturally have a physical form... which would fit in with the "airy presences" felt throughout the story and, to some degree (though he can be said to have a physical form or body) to Wilbur's brother as well, I think. This is one aspect of it.

They must have some kind of physical form if the brother (and perhaps Wilbur) feed on cattle. "Feed it reg'lar, Willy, an' mind the quantity; but dun't let it grow too fast fer the place, fer ef it busts quarters or gits aout afore ye opens to Yog-Sothoth, it's all over an' no use." Its presence as "the Dunwich horror" is its physical size and appetite, which causes tragic havoc among the land of humanity. Perhaps this physicality is what was bequeathed unto it by its mortal mother -- and here I cannot help but see the Christian mythos factor that Derleth insisted on, but that I do not detect in any of Lovecraft's other tales (not that I've sought it).

There's so much going on, and such grotesque things suggested. Why does the brother have "...a haff-shaped man's face on top of it, an' it looked like Wizard Whateley's, only it was yards an' yards acrost..." This is of some importance, it has some kind of nauseating meaning. Perhaps Yog-Sothoth, like some Unholy Ghost, used Wizard Whateley as surrogate host with which to impregnate his daughter. The suggestion is so awful, yet there it is. Another nameless Biblical taint, from Lot getting his daughters with child within a cave? Who can say? There are things going on in "The Dunwich Horror" that make it, for me, extremely powerful and disgusting and deeply horrifying. I can in no way see it as an "artistic failure" in any way, confused as some of it may seem.

 

[j d worthington]

They must have some kind of physical form if the brother (and perhaps Wilbur) feed on cattle. "Feed it reg'lar, Willy, an' mind the quantity; but dun't let it grow too fast fer the place, fer ef it busts quarters or gits aout afore ye opens to Yog-Sothoth, it's all over an' no use." Its presence as "the Dunwich horror" is its physical size and appetite, which causes tragic havoc among the land of humanity. Perhaps this physicality is what was bequeathed unto it by its mortal mother -- and here I cannot help but see the Christian mythos factor that Derleth insisted on, but that I do not detect in any of Lovecraft's other tales (not that I've sought it).

Agreed that the twins do have such physical forms during the events of the tale; my point was that the Old Ones do not necessarily or naturally have such a physical form -- they may assume such for specific purposes, but it isn't an inherent quality with them. Which, in a very real way (to me, at least), makes the concept even more disturbing. As you note, the possibility that Yog-Sothoth so used Wizard Whateley would (possibly) fit in with such an idea and yes, it also has Biblical resonances.

At any rate, the Lamb quotation would indicate that "without the body [these terrors] would have been the same"; that their significance to us has little or nothing to do with whatever physical form they may take, but reaches deeper, into a realm which we, as physical beings ourselves, can no longer access consciously, but the influence of which is what causes such extreme fear and terror of such beings or forces. In this connection, I can't help but think of The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, which also touches on this concept of the gods taking such form and mating with humans to produce offspring, as well as the connection with the quotation from Necronomicon:

of Their semblance can no man know, saving only in the features of those They have begotten on mankind; and of those are there many sorts, differing in likeness from man’s truest eidolon to that shape without sight or substance which is Them. They walk unseen and foul in lonely places where the Words have been spoken and the Rites howled through at their Seasons. The wind gibbers with Their voices, and the earth mutters with Their consciousness. They bend the forest and crush the city, yet may not forest or city behold the hand that smites.

To me, there is almost a hint that Lovecraft is correlating Alhazred and Lamb here, and opening up a truly terrifying vista of "deep time" which does fit with his cosmicism in its own way, once again dwarfing us without taking away from the idea that, like ants may be to us, we may have our uses for such entities on occasion, but only as tools to be used and discarded, with no more significance than that.

As for it being an "artistic failure"... I do think it is such with a rather stereotyped "good-vs.-evil" scenario at odds with Lovecraft's own stated aims in his fiction; yet this does not mean it is a bad story overall, nor a failure artistically overall. It creates a powerful atmosphere; there are some magnificent passages throughout the tale; he certainly created some memorable characters here (especially the Whateleys -- and I agree with you that, brief as her appearance here is, Lavinia herself remains rather memorable in many ways, and I can't help but feel pity for her); and the topographical descriptions are among the greatest he ever wrote, in my opinion... which, considering his gift for such things, is saying considerable....

 

[w h pugmire esq]

Yes, I see and agree with most of what you say. It is my stubborn nature that wants to insist the story is not an artistic failure. I hold HPL to what he accomplished as a writer, not what he claimed to be his goals, which he sometimes (often?) contradicted and fell short of. There is just so much in "The Dunwich Horror" that captivates my imagination and thrills my love for weird fiction, so I come to its defense always. I cannot now remember how Lovecraft regarded the tale after having written it. I think he wrote it before the effect of Wright's constant rejections and hesitations "got" to Lovecraft and tainted his views concerning his ability to write "successful" works, which I think is reflected in his unfortunate uncertainty about "The Shadow out of Time," which is so tremendous.

As a Mythos writer, I am fascinated with the idea of the Old Ones relationship to humanity and their "need" of us, which may not be a very Lovecraftian approach, but I want to pursue it nonetheless in my own weird fiction, especially in relationship to the children of Sesqua Valley. I am writing the title story for my next book, The Strange Dark One and Others, and I want to reflect on aspects of Nyarlathotep, whom I may have the one and only Great Old One who can enter into the dreamland domain from which the children of Sesqua's shadow originate. It is only, I think, in At the Mountains of Madness where there is no solid connection between the Old Ones and humanity--just a hint that we, like shoggoths, were a product of playful pastime, I think; in every other tale there seems to be a strong interweaving of need and use: the Deep Ones mating with our breed, the link between Cthulhu and mortal dreamers (which may not have anything to do with Cthulhu's "regard" toward humanity, I know), the melding of psyches between Robert Blake and ye Haunter of ye Dark, the Fungi from Yuggoth and their human help, &c &c.

If Wizard Whateley was used as physical host through which Yog-Sothoth impregnated Lavinia, this does suggest that this Old One is a thing incorporeal; and such seems to be the nature of Shub-Niggurath as we understand her from Lovecraft's playful correspondence. This is all very intriguing and commands keen study and attention. I love this!

 

[j d worthington]

Yes, that's one of the many things I love about HPL's work and discussing it with other Lovecraftians (or general readers who simply enjoy debating or critiquing such topics): it is so layered, textured, and rich in interpretability and allusion that doing such simply adds new levels on which to enjoy it. And, of course, being so classically influenced, Lovecraft himself was often quite aware of many such dimensions (as can be seen by his various essays and discussions of others' writing in his letters), and his tendency to pay attention to such fine details makes it likely that such mythic touchstones were more often than not quite intentional.

While leaving this discussion open, how about bringing in something a little different, then: the epigram for his late tale, "The Haunter of the Dark":

"The Haunter of the Dark" by H. P. Lovecraft

For those who don't know, this is actually lines 8-10 of his 1917 verse "Nemesis" (written, as he described it, in the small hours of November 1... in other words, Hallowe'en night), with line 10 broken into two lines in this case... whether for scansion or emphasis or some other purpose, I have no idea.

"Nemesis" by H. P. Lovecraft

This is, as far as I am aware, the only time he quoted one of his own works as a motto for another, yet I think the choice is appropriate. At any rate, what do you make of the connection between those lines (or the entire verse) and the story...?

 

[J-WO]

I love that verse. Its always stuck with me and made a real impression on my 14 year old self.

Oddly, its vast nihilism is an antithesis of the story's most prominent image: a small church. Yet inside that church, in a sense, is contained the vast empty nothingness.

 

[j d worthington]

I love that verse. Its always stuck with me and made a real impression on my 14 year old self.

Oddly, its vast nihilism is an antithesis of the story's most prominent image: a small church. Yet inside that church, in a sense, is contained the vast empty nothingness.

I've never thought of it as a particularly small church; in fact, the descriptions in the tale would tend to argue otherwise, with such terms as "huge stone bulk" "massive gates", "colossal nave", etc., and the note that "the sheer bulk of the church was oppressive now that he was close to it". One rather gets the impression of an enormous structure (and, as I recall, the actual church on which it was modeled -- to which Lovecraft added certain architectural details to give it more of the Gothic feel -- was itself rather a largish building).

As for the note that inside the church is contained the vast empty nothingness, remember that the building is described as being of "that earliest experimental form of Gothic revival which preceded the stately Upjohn period" and that it "held over some of the outlines and proportions of the Georgian age", combining, in some senses, the classical and Gothic... and then consider this:

But it is well to point out [...] that these labels [classical or Romanesque and Gothic], although in this case understood in a context of architectural styles and techniques, still refer as much to an attitude or a way of looking at the universe as to any specific architectural accomplishments.

How true this is becomes more evident if Sir Christopher Wren's remarks, made in eighteenth-century England when the classical and Gothic modes of life styles were again opposing each other, are considered. Wren, speaking of ways to beautify the Romanesque architectural style by addition of Gothic embellishments, suggests that Gothic might better be called Saracen because it reflects an Oriental influence rather than a northern, Gothic influence.[...]

The Romanesque style tends toward the horizontal or area-occupying form. As such, it evokes a feeling of control and limitation, a sense of mass or weight pressing downward. This feeling is further enhanced by the presence of thick walls supporting the heavy arches and vaultings of the roof.[...] The result is a feeling of rationalization or intellectualization, an analyzing rather than a synthesizing activity.

[...]

It is here, int eh realm of feeling or sensation, that the ultimately important distinctions between Romanesque and Gothic styles of architecture must be made. Whatever the architectural reasons for such elements as the pointed arch, the quadripartite vaulting, the flying buttress, and the pointed spire, it is knowledge of the emotional origins and results which is most important to an understanding of what the Gothic mind involves. This can only be reached through a comprehension of what Gothic architectural elements signify to, or arouse in, the minds and emotions of the viewer[....]

First, whereas Romanesque or classical architecture is horizontal, Gothic is vertical. The Romanesque, with its evocation of mass, presses downward; the Gothic rises upward as though the stone has lost its material component, its corporeal nature, and almost seems to float. This effect of upward thrust, associated in the medieval and later minds with spirituality and aspiration, is furthered by the use of pointed spires, narrow pointed arches and sloping roofs, while the edge decorations break up the sharp line of demarcation between the edifice and its background, so tending to fuse the two. In addition, the use of the flying buttress permits much higher structures, so the Gothic edifice rises towering above the neighboring rooftops and seems to hang suspended over its immediate surroundings. The effect is not only one of spirituality and aspiration -- it is distinctly one of awe. Whether the viewer perceives the
Gothic structures from the outside or the inside, the mere act of lifting the eyes to encompass the height of the building is enough to evoke a feeling of soaring. Thus the Gothic, responding to the solidity and stability of the Romanesque, gives an impression of movement, of incorporeality, of change and fusion.

This contrast to the stolidity of the classical is further evident in the structure of the Gothic wall. Through use of the flying buttress for support, Gothic architecture is able to achieve astonishing heights without the necessity of increasing wall thickness and so having the wall broad and heavy at the base, for the flying buttress provides support at the necessary pressure points to counteract the outward thrust caused by the heavy vaulted ceilings and the roof. The outer walls can thus be limited to supporting pillars, allowing the intervening spaces to be made into stained glass windows.[...]

Internally, the effect is much the same, with the additional component of the play of colored light through stained glass. The same soaring effect of the external view carries through to the internal, and the quadripartite vaulting, like the pointed arches of the windows, tends to augment this effect. Furthermore, a fusion of pillar and vaulting creates an internal profile which blends and integrates space, producing an organic or synthetic effect of wholeness -- contrary to the analytical effect of the classical.

To a large degree, the organic character of Gothic architecture is due to the manipulation of light, to a fusion of colored light and form, to the heavy contrast between bright light and deep shadow occasioned by the more three-dimensional character of Gothic decoration, both internally and externally, to the mysticism of white sunlight transformed into the variegated and symbolic colors of gems. Thus Gothic light serves to create a sense of the continuous rather than of the discrete, as classical light does, and the result is an emotional effect which is nonintellectual -- at least in its initial impact.[...] Instead of presenting its material in an orderly, discursive manner, the Gothic mode in architecture presents the viewer with such a simultaneous wealth of visual material that he cannot begin to cope with it analytically until he has overcome the initial emotional response. And even then, as in Gothic literature, the intellectual reaction can never again be entirely separate from the primary emotional response.

-- from "Origins of Gothic in Literature", introduction to Ghosts, Castles, and Victims: Tales of Gothic Horror, ed. by Jack C. Wolf and Barbara H. Wolf, pp. 16-20

Certainly, Lovecraft, having read Eino Railo's Haunted Castle: A Study of the Elements of English Romanticism (1927), Edith Birkhead's The Tale of Terror (1921), and even Dorothy Scarbrough's The Supernatural in Modern English Fiction (1917 about which he had some severe criticism on certain points), as well as numerous books on architecture and history, was aware of these points, and made use of this contrast in his tale, using the "irrational" mode of the Gothic to represent the chaos for which Nyarlathotep stands, the incursion of the cosmic disorder into the seeming rationality of the world through both the bizarrely-shapen Shining Trapezohedron and the imitation Gothic church itself (whose windows are themselves perversions of the usual ecclesiastical scenes depicted in such windows in cathedrals around the world).

(For those who would like a look at Scarborough's or Birkhead's works, I provide links below.)

http://books.google.com/books?vid=O...othy+scarborough&as_brr=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14154

 

[J-WO]

Gads! The church really is big isn't it? I've just skimmed through the story (I should really read them again before diving into these discussions) and I can't figure out how the place has shrunk in my mind over the passing years.

Thanks for sharing that extract, BTW. I'm going in to town today and I think I will visit the cathedral and maybe other churches and analyze them afresh. Leicester's cathedral is Gothic revivalist but the theory still holds. (Hmm... I suppose Providence's Gothic is all Revivalist, technically, so it'll be a good visit from an HPL perspective).

Now I think about it, despite its size, the Haunter's church of my minds eye contains the sinister elements of both Classicism and Gothic--the former's oppression and the latter's mind-warping 'soar'. Never really thought about it before.

On a barely related note, there was this documentary on BBC 1 a few years back, where they brought this man from a tribe in New Guinea to London. They took him to see St Pauls and the poor guy's face looked just as I'd imagine one of HPL's protagonists on seeing R'yleh. The presenter asked him what he thought and he said- 'This place was not built. It grew.'

Kind of echoes what Jack and Barbara Wolf suggest, except from the standpoint of an outside culture.

 

[w h pugmire esq]

There's a rather effective film that I saw last year at the Lovecraft Film Festival called Pickman's Muse, the trailer to which I believe can be seen on YouTube. It is actually a cinematic treatment of "The Haunter of the Dark," and they have either found a church or created one through computer magick that "feels," to me, exactly right. It's awesome, check it out.

 

[nigourath]

What an interesting thread, turned this out to be.I have read various interpretations about the nature of Old ones or the possibility of humanity being needed ,for them to return...Well ,i have my own thoughts about these "Lovecraftian problematics":

About the old ones, and the question of the physicality of form or the chance to be incorporeal entities...i can"t trace any hint ,by HPL, that the old ones, could be incorporeal ,but rather receive a form ,thats definitely physical ,but a lot different than ,what we could expect ,from humanity"s short-sighted point of view....i think there was always a materialistic mechanistic approach, about these -yet -very vague entities.The possibility of yog-sothoth ,being the "unholy ghost" analoque, rather limits-in my opinion-the methods of intervention of the old ones in our human reality ,than it glorifies their existence and measure of unknown....Ofcourse,such a hint does exist ,in the "Dunwich horror" for someone to extract ,and i agree ,that Lovecraft, left this like an open field, as he has done so many ,many times in his works:the possibilities are endless...yet my impression ,during the reading of this tale, was a different one-that yog-sothoth did infact ,somehow ,materialize in some "unnamable form" ,probably a very weak and temporary one ,that is alien to the human dimension ,as alien could be the methods of opening this "human door",that allowed him passage,even for a brief time-without the possibility of extending his presence on earth.

And i don"t think ,that impregnation ,was the leading cause of these unspeakable transformations ,but rather his mere presence ,even in this short time ,caused these malformations.How?? That"s also an entire new field , that could be vaguely explored:Why not ,by bodily secretions of his temporary form,coming in touch with his followers or ,from airborn substances ,that could be excreted ,by this unearthly form and inhaled ,by the human inspiratory system??Why not the contamination with an unknown virus ,that creates various malformities ,during its involvment with human dna??Could there be a whole population of such viruses ,hosted by Yog -Sothoth"s weak form of existence and which are abundant in his home-planet???
And why not ,this temporary form, not being able to communicate -more easily on earth now-, with its new followers,showing them new rituals, that, they could be performed and change their physical and spiritual properties??...so why clinging on a "biblical reference",that could explain naively or comfortably ,such a hideous and hardly understandable course of events??....

Furthermore,i read with interest ,the observation ,that humanity despite their insignificance, as a species in the cosmic scale-and they are...-a contradiction surfaces ,since the old ones ,neverthelless, do require human aid and intervention, to enter our realm ,for an indefinite abode on our little planet...why do they need followers,since they predate human existence?.....Well,despite that this was an interesting observation,i have my doubts,concerning the fact ,that the old ones could inhabit our planet ,before their "cosmic time" comes to place(remember,that cthulhu shall awake ,when the stars are right ,from the "call of cthulhu"...).Could there be a "cosmic barrier" ,that even the powerfull old ones could not breach, before the right "Cosmical Moment"?And why do they need followers ,like Wilbur Whateley ,as faithfull subjects ,if such is the case?Well,...think about why Cthulhu "needed" humanity in the Time ,before any known civilizations(and a lot before that...).Did he really "Need them"?What, if that old hideous race of cthulhu ,just used humanity as a sporting event of sorts or for amusement?Who can speak clearly about ,what their intentions were ?Maybe the strenghthening of strange unknown black rituals ,that only through the humanity"s lifeforce ,could be encouraged?Even here ,the possibilities are endless ,and i cant even start to think about them ,less putting them to paper... But i cant extract any possible need for humanity ,by the old ones ,at least regarding their domination or depending upon them for their existence...
In the specific case here with Wilbur,it is more possible ,that He needed them ,not the opposite!!It is the neverending metaphysical curiosity of mankind ,searching for all the kinds of alternatives for the eternal questions-that may well get them into serious trouble....Yog-sothoth answered the call,thats all- i think if i remember correctly ,that the issue here ,was not releasing yog-sothoth for a final invasion on little earth ,but more like a faithfull"s servant"s invitation.....I maybe wrong ,but all possibilities exist.....

 

[j d worthington]

nigourath: the problem with several of the ideas expressed in your post -- the cause of the distortions, the lack of need for some form of human tool (at least), etc. -- is that (fascinating as they are) there is no actual textual support for such; nothing that can be interpreted as such from the text of the story. For example: the idea that the distortions were caused by contact with Yog-Sothoth, or a virus emitted by the same, etc., leaves a very large problem when it comes to Lavinia Whateley and her father, who were not so affected. (Granted, Lavinia is described as being deformed, but this predates any indicated contact with Yog-Sothoth.)

I don't have the time this afternoon to go into all this as it deserves; that will have to wait until later. But I'd be hesitant about bringing into such a reading ideas which a careful reading of the text cannot be made to support, or for which there is no hint in the text itself, especially when other possibilities do have such support....

 

[j d worthington]

Okay, nigourath, that's a lot to respond to, and I've been very short on time lately, hence the delay (for which I apologize). At any rate, here goes:

About the old ones, and the question of the physicality of form or the chance to be incorporeal entities...i can"t trace any hint ,by HPL, that the old ones, could be incorporeal ,but rather receive a form ,thats definitely physical ,but a lot different than ,what we could expect ,from humanity"s short-sighted point of view....i think there was always a materialistic mechanistic approach, about these -yet -very vague entities.

First, I agree that, in the main, Lovecraft wrote from a mechanistic materialistic approach even with his fiction. But... there are plenty of examples of the older spiritual sort of thing in his earlier fiction. I would say that this was his being influenced by the older classics in the field, and only gradually working out his own synthesis of his philosophy and an aesthetic approach to this idea of a "non-supernatural cosmic art" (as he phrased it in his letter to Frank Belknap Long). Up to that point, he tended to go back and forth over that line without much thought (vide "The Tomb", "The Tree", "In the Vault", The Case of Charles Dexter Ward, etc.). It was only about the time of At the Mountains of Madness that he really began to solidify this idea of weird fiction which eschewed the genuinely supernatural in favor of the "supernormal", as it were.

The possibility of yog-sothoth ,being the "unholy ghost" analoque, rather limits-in my opinion-the methods of intervention of the old ones in our human reality ,than it glorifies their existence and measure of unknown....

I was thinking more along the lines of literary reference here... something which called on genuine mythic archetypes for resonance, in the same way as "The Colour Out of Space" is heavily referential to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, or the reference to the crucifixion and Christ's final words on the cross with the only words heard from Wilbur's brother, or the distinct echoes of the 23rd Psalm at the end of "The Shadow Over Innsmouth". This would definitely add a note of parody, but of a sort which could easily go unnoticed; and, like the best satires, would use such a relationship to strengthen its own mythic significance. There are Biblical references aplenty in Lovecraft, both overtly stated ones and parallels to passages in the Bible; something which should not be at all surprising, given his fondness for the King James Bible as a work of literary art, and his awareness of its powerful influence on history and especially the history of his native region.

Ofcourse,such a hint does exist ,in the "Dunwich horror" for someone to extract ,and i agree ,that Lovecraft, left this like an open field, as he has done so many ,many times in his works:the possibilities are endless...yet my impression ,during the reading of this tale, was a different one-that yog-sothoth did infact ,somehow ,materialize in some "unnamable form" ,probably a very weak and temporary one ,that is alien to the human dimension ,as alien could be the methods of opening this "human door",that allowed him passage,even for a brief time-without the possibility of extending his presence on earth.

As you say, it remains an open question, and the story can be read either way... even with the quotation from Lamb kept in mind. After all, Lamb makes it pretty clear that, while these things would have been the same without the body, it is in the physical presence of them that we tend to experience these fears... but because the connection between lies in our antemundane past.

And i don"t think ,that impregnation ,was the leading cause of these unspeakable transformations ,but rather his mere presence ,even in this short time ,caused these malformations.How?? That"s also an entire new field , that could be vaguely explored:Why not ,by bodily secretions of his temporary form,coming in touch with his followers or ,from airborn substances ,that could be excreted ,by this unearthly form and inhaled ,by the human inspiratory system??Why not the contamination with an unknown virus ,that creates various malformities ,during its involvment with human dna??Could there be a whole population of such viruses ,hosted by Yog -Sothoth"s weak form of existence and which are abundant in his home-planet???

This was what I was referring to in my post above. These are all fascinating ideas, but there is nothing in the text (or Lovecraft's other writings, for the matter of that) to indicate such; this makes such possibilities extremely dubious in a critical reading of the text (though perfectly legitimate as a form of speculation); hence my caution about bringing ideas which are not even hinted at in the text into a context of such criticism.

Incidentally, though, is there any reason for believing there is such a thing as his/its "home planet"? Given the little we have on Yog-Sothoth, such seems unlikely, as this particular entity is described in terms which certainly seem to fit an extraphysical being (cf. not only this tale, but the few references to Yog-Sothoth elsewhere, especially "Through the Gates of the Silver Key", which gives more information than any of Lovecraft's other tales, including the revisions).

And why not ,this temporary form, not being able to communicate -more easily on earth now-, with its new followers,showing them new rituals, that, they could be performed and change their physical and spiritual properties??...so why clinging on a "biblical reference",that could explain naively or comfortably ,such a hideous and hardly understandable course of events??....

Even if such speculations were correct (which, again, I find very doubtful under the circumstances), this would not invalidate the biblical parallels in the least, as such are obviously there in the text, and serve to enrich the allusiveness of the piece as a literary construct; they give it a closer affinity to the great literary tradition, as it were. And, on a strictly literal level within the context of the story as story... given the history of the region, such an entity would likely play on such references in dealing with such people because it would be something they could more easily understand and relate to, and thus would aid in their being manipulated... just as Nyarlathotep takes the form of the traditional Black Man of the witch coven in "The Dreams in the Witch House".

Furthermore,i read with interest ,the observation ,that humanity despite their insignificance, as a species in the cosmic scale-and they are...-a contradiction surfaces ,since the old ones ,neverthelless, do require human aid and intervention, to enter our realm ,for an indefinite abode on our little planet...why do they need followers,since they predate human existence?.....Well,despite that this was an interesting observation,i have my doubts,concerning the fact ,that the old ones could inhabit our planet ,before their "cosmic time" comes to place(remember,that cthulhu shall awake ,when the stars are right ,from the "call of cthulhu"...).

Keep in mind that Lovecraft never felt bound by consistency in such ideas with his stories, save in the few direct sequelt or very closely-related stories. Otherwise, he tended to weave what worked best for that particular tale in terms of atmosphere and effect. That, in fact, is one of the reasons why "The Dunwich Horror", "The Dreams in the Witch House", and "The Whisperer in Darkness" have all come in for their share of criticism on the point of lessening the truly cosmic impact of what was going on... they tended to give such entities a much more "human" motivation and modus operandi than was consistent with Lovecraf'ts own stated beliefs on what was effective for a weird tale... and what he tended, once he finally formulated the idea at about the time of "The Call of Cthulhu", to largely stick to (save with such stories as The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath or "The Strange High House in the Mist", which were more in the realm of "sheer phantasy", as he phrased it).

As for why they needed humans... there are indications of this in several of the tales: "The Call of Cthulhu" makes it plain that an outside agency is necessary to actually release Cthulhu once R'lyeh rises, and human beings are the only ones on the planet likely to be of any use for this purpose. Utterly disposable once this is done, but necessary to that point nonetheless... as a screwdriver or a hammer may be necessary for a particular task, but certainly doesn't mean anything to most of us otherwise. "The Dunwich Horror"... the partly-human offspring provide a gateway to allow the permanent physical presence of the Old Ones, with their intention to take the planet away from its normal environment and use it for their own purposes. Again, about the same importance as any piece of equipment, safety gear, or clothing which enables one to accomplish a particular task, which can then be discarded afterward. "The Whisperer in Darkness" has the Mi-Go acting very much like con-men in order to gain what they want from human beings... to learn what we know which may interfere with their own activities, and to remove any troublesome nuisances from their path... much as we would an ant's nest or the like. "The Shadow Out of Time" is saved from this sort of problem because it is not only human beings, but a wide variety of entities which the Great Race uses to gain knowledge of the future and past to further its own ends; thus human beings are not only not prominent, but (as the text specifies), relegated to the lowest rung of the ladder as far as types of being so used.

The idea of a race of Cthulhu-like beings is something briefly mentioned (in At the Mountains of Madness, with the "Cthulhu-spawn"), but indications in "The Call of Cthulhu" and "The Dunwich Horror" are that he/it is a rather minor being in comparison to others; the "high-priest" of the Old Ones in "Call", a servitor rather than on an equal footing with them; while in "Dunwich Horror", "Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly," according to the passage from the Necronomicon.

As to what sort of "cosmic barrier" may exist for these beings, Lovecraft never was explicit, though the indications are that it was simply some natural set of circumstances which bound them; something which was beyond our control or understanding but which nonetheless had its effect on them as naturally-occurring beings. On why Yog-Sothoth and the Old Ones needed beings like Wilbur... I've addressed that above, as well as why Cthulhu needed humanity once they evolved enough to be of use.

In the specific case here with Wilbur,it is more possible ,that He needed them ,not the opposite!!It is the neverending metaphysical curiosity of mankind ,searching for all the kinds of alternatives for the eternal questions-that may well get them into serious trouble....Yog-sothoth answered the call,thats all- i think if i remember correctly ,that the issue here ,was not releasing yog-sothoth for a final invasion on little earth ,but more like a faithfull"s servant"s invitation.....I maybe wrong ,but all possibilities exist.....

As for the connection between Wilbur (and his brother) and the Old Ones, remember this quotation from his grandfather:

“Feed it reg’lar, Willy, an’ mind the quantity; but dun’t let it grow too fast fer the place, fer ef it busts quarters or gits aout afore ye opens to Yog-Sothoth, it’s all over an’ no use. Only them from beyont kin make it multiply an’ work. . . . Only them, the old uns as wants to come back. . . .”

as well as this, from Wilbur's own diary:

That upstairs more ahead of me than I had thought it would be, and is not like to have much earth brain.[...] They from outside will help, but they cannot take body without human blood.[...] I wonder how I shall look when the earth is cleared and there are no earth beings on it. He that came with the Aklo Sabaoth said I may be transfigured, there being much of outside to work on.

or what Armitage had deciphered from that same source, concerning:

the beings they were going to let in tangibly to wipe out the human race and drag the earth off to some nameless place for some nameless purpose

So, no, the text does indicate it was a bit more than Yog-Sothoth answering a call; Wilbur and his brother were parts of a long-laid plan of that particular entity in order to capture the earth itself, for some purpose of their own. (What that purpose was, we are given little, if any, hint. But, once they established a foothold, the human race was obviously expendable.)

 

[nigourath]

J.d ,thanks for the carefully written reply and there was an incosistency in my previous thread ,as i wasn"t explanatory enough,about my suggested version of the happenings.The allusions made in the text orientate ,towards the impregnation of Lavinia ,since the unknown identity of the father and the unnatural abilities as a child ,are especially noted.The version supported here,is closer to the interpretation,that wilbur is an offspring of Lavinia and some unknown possibly notorious entity -and alien ,especially for those that are familiar with Lovecraft"s style.(And its more probable,that Lovecraft meant it as such,compared for examble with the suggestions ,that i offered in my previous thread).

I just talked,about my own impressions ,when i first read the story ,some years ago(and yes, i don"t remember everything crystal clear),but i will be more explanatory in the next lines.Despite the favorable insinuation,made here ,about the origin of the child (and terrible truth associated to it,since the very unnatutal properties of the child ,like growth etc),creating a sense of paradoxical,otherwordly interference with the human reproductivity even-i couldn't and can"t even now ,accept that explanation- still i cant be sure,that Lovecraft meant a reproductive interference:If you remember it from the text-i think you do-the whole Dunwich village is based on crossbreeding,and a very clear insinuation ,about close family members producing their progeny,is made here(a fact that brings the hideousness of the place into a high climax...even from the start).I considered then-still my interpretation today of this horrific tale-,that the father of Wilbur could be very likely ,the father of Lavinia, as well......It's a fact ,that can as easily be alluded from the very text as well and it did for me as well,since and if i remember correctly, Wilbur doesn"t mention ,as his father an alien entity(for examble the manifestation of yog-sothoth)...to me the impregnation was an unnatural act of father -daughter ,with a possible unnamable outer -influence of a manifestation of Yog-sothoth:i don"t know. but i never got used to the notion ,of sexual intercourse with an earthly alien manifestation or even the very naive unholy ghost theory...As i said in my first post,the mere presence of a temporary manifestation of the hideous Yog-sothoth,could alter any fact of reality,as we know it ,even birth or upbreeeding a child.So the abilities of Wilbur ,in my opinion ,could be inherited by an influenced by yog-sothoth ,human father or even during his upbringing....That"s just my interpretation.j.d!!!And in the text is not clearly reffered ,that yog-sothoth,was directly the ....father.It's an open field as i see it.

Now ,about the mi-go (wisperer in darkness) or the great race(shadow out of time) ,to me it was clear ,that humanity"s usefullness, was not, but a kind of "side-project", for those entities,more like a life-form to be exploited, not such like a screwdriver, as you say, but more like "cattle" to me,if i can use the word and even less significant than them.Do you remember the fate of the explorers in the tent ("mountains of madness")??...You mentioned ,that in Call of Cthulhu,there is required some human intervention ,for the cthuloid race to return(and yes ,i haven"t forgotten,that cthulhu was just the high priest...) and dominate earth:but i haven"t sincerely ,being able to trace ,their exact role in this-do you mean, without their help and according to the text ,even if the "stars were rightly placed", cthulhu"s race could never return-according to the story?Plz,define this as better as you can ,as well as what was humanity"s usefullness, during cthulhu"s and his brothers reign,in the prerecorded times.

Finally,you describe Wilbur"s association to the old ones, as an important mediator ,for their conquering of earth.("human blood is required").You also,mention ,that the only factor here are not the "cosmic circumstances",but more like the interaction between Wilbur and the old ones ,with a clear long planning towards the domination of earth.I think ,that your interpretation here of the text ,was correct (and it was especially, one of the details ,that i didn"t remember from the text,as i said in my previous post).But j.d,although it describes the definitive will of the old ones, to capture earth-and i didnt recall that-all other details are...pretty vague and undefining.The transformation of wilbur and the multiplication of such entities are only possible,if the old ones are present-the archetypical manifestation just has to be fed-A servant"s responsibility .....
What was this long planning,that could ensure this outcome?And how long when time is concerned about?And,according to the text,was there a really specific usefullness for humanity-"human blood required",speaks about the mass transfiguration of human bodies ,that is their usefullness:hosting material.Where is the involvment of human inteliigence except from the blind obedience?.....Yes ,armitage speaks, about the humanity"s "vital" role in this "Operation";after the domination ,they will be transferred ,to some unknown place for some unknown purposes....that is their summarized importance...the only depedence from humanity, that i see in the tale, is that of accepting ,as servants their fate and just make an "invitation call" to the old ones!And the very fact ,that the old ones need to materialize in the human dimension ,by first using human hosts,speaks to me clearly ,about their inability to surpass the "cosmic laws" ,that bind them to other dimensions(and why not planets?......).The only laws,that bind them....that"s just my interpretation,even at a more closer look at the text-and it reminded me a lot of the time,when i was first reading that great horrific tale.Great thread.

 

[j d worthington]

Well, I attempted to make a reply to nigourath's post earlier today, and after all my effort... it went into the ether, which was soon turning all shades of blue from the language I was using.....

At any rate, before attempting to do so again, I'll post a link (for those interested) to something which I ran across on the 'net last night (though not having a chance to read it until today), which also, among other things, addresses the idea I was discussing before of that transition between the supernatural horror tale of HPL's earlier period and the mechanistic materialistic approach of the "supernormal" of his later period:

http://www.ea.sinica.edu.tw/eu_file/123778939614.pdf

I refer the interested reader specifically to pp. 5-7 for this part of the discussion, though the essay as a whole is quite interesting.

Now, on to another attempt at a reply:

On the subject of the paternity of the Whateley twins, I would say that was well-established by several things: first, Wizard Whateley's statement at the beginning:

“I dun’t keer what folks think—ef Lavinny’s boy looked like his pa, he wouldn’t look like nothin’ ye expeck. Ye needn’t think the only folks is the folks hereabaouts. Lavinny’s read some, an’ has seed some things the most o’ ye only tell abaout. I calc’late her man is as good a husban’ as ye kin find this side of Aylesbury; an’ ef ye knowed as much abaout the hills as I dew, ye wouldn’t ast no better church weddin’ nor her’n. Let me tell ye suthin’—some day yew folks’ll hear a child o’ Lavinny’s a-callin’ its father’s name on the top o’ Sentinel Hill!”

This, of course, is confirmed by Wilbur's twin at the climax, calling:

HELP! HELP! . . . ff—ff—ff—FATHER! FATHER! YOG-SOTHOTH! . . .

(which, incidentally, is where several of us get the parallel/parody between the crucifixion and this tale). Armitage also confirms this at the end of the tale:

You needn’t ask how Wilbur called it out of the air. He didn’t call it out. It was his twin brother, but it looked more like the father than he did

Wilbur also mentions the "outsideness" in his own paternity in such a context as to make such the likeliest inference, also calling on his father at the moment of his expiration in the library (about which more later).

Then there is this, from a letter to Willis Conover from HPL:

He [Yog-Sothoth] has also begotten hellish hybrids upon the females of various organic species throughout the universes of space-time (cf. "The Dunwich Horror").

-- Lovecraft at Last: by H. P. Lovecraft and Willis Conover, p. 92

Which pretty much nails it. This does not, however, remove the possibility that Wizard Whateley was used in some way as a (supernaturally-influenced?) surrogate for Yog-Sothoth, though it makes it less likely. At any rate, beyond the obvious biblical parallel, such a theme reflects Lovecraft's fascination with classical mythology (especially Graeco-Roman), and the numerous tales of such deities siring offspring on humanity. In fact, one could read this as a sort of sardonic comment that such tales are humanity's attempt to make sense of such genuine events as form the basis of "The Dunwich Horror" itself, as well as Machen's "The Great God Pan" (which obviously influenced Lovecraft's tale).

Now ,about the mi-go (wisperer in darkness) or the great race(shadow out of time) ,to me it was clear ,that humanity"s usefullness, was not, but a kind of "side-project", for those entities,more like a life-form to be exploited, not such like a screwdriver, as you say, but more like "cattle" to me,if i can use the word and even less significant than them.Do you remember the fate of the explorers in the tent ("mountains of madness")??

I'm not sure I'm seeing the distinction here, save that cattle (among other things) serve as a dietary supplement for us. Otherwise, I don't see the difference. My point was that, like a screwdriver, hammer, etc., human beings have no intrinsic importance in themselves, but only as the proper tool to get a certain job done, after which they are of no value. As for the list you have here... The Mi-Go used human beings to do certain things for them which (due to their small numbers and obviously conspicuous appearance) they could not do themselves... and also as forms of life (or individuals) to be eliminated should be become too curious or troublesome... But, given that they themselves are very physical, corporeal beings (as are several of the other examples mentioned), they are less effective representatives of cosmic forces per se than of the generally alien; and here the problem enters with them, because their motivations and modus operandi are a bit too human, resulting in, for instance, cheap trickery to achieve their ends.

The Great Race (or, rather, the corporeal forms which they inhabited in Earth's early years) used human beings to suss out the future because we were the most highly-evolved species on the planet for that period (they also used cockroaches and spiders as the most highly evolved for later periods once we went extinct).

The Old Ones, scientists themselves, first removed an apparent thread and then chose a member each from those odd fur-clad bipeds and their noisy quadripedal companions to dissect to satisfy their curiosity and desire for scientific knowledge (much as Lake and his crew had done with two members of the Old Ones' party). They also, it may be noted, removed especially meaty portions of several of Lake's party and salted them for foodstuffs for their journey to their own city, hence indeed making "cattle" of us....

You mentioned ,that in Call of Cthulhu,there is required some human intervention ,for the cthuloid race to return(and yes ,i haven"t forgotten,that cthulhu was just the high priest...) and dominate earth:but i haven"t sincerely ,being able to trace ,their exact role in this-do you mean, without their help and according to the text ,even if the "stars were rightly placed", cthulhu"s race could never return-according to the story?Plz,define this as better as you can ,as well as what was humanity"s usefullness, during cthulhu"s and his brothers reign,in the prerecorded times.

Once again, my intent was not to make human beings overly important; any species with minimal intelligence and the proper manual dexterity would have sufficed. The human intervention required here? To release the catch on the door, much as some cats and dogs have done with our own:

Briden pushed at the stone in several places without result. Then Donovan felt over it delicately around the edge, pressing each point separately as he went. He climbed interminably along the grotesque stone moulding—that is, one would call it climbing if the thing was not after all horizontal—and the men wondered how any door in the universe could be so vast. Then, very softly and slowly, the acre-great panel began to give inward at the top; and they saw that it was balanced. Donovan slid or somehow propelled himself down or along the jamb and rejoined his fellows, and everyone watched the queer recession of the monstrously carven portal. In this phantasy of prismatic distortion it moved anomalously in a diagonal way, so that all the rules of matter and perspective seemed upset.[...] The stars were right again, and what an age-old cult had failed to do by design, a band of innocent sailors had done by accident. (emphasis added)

Again, not exactly a glorification of the human species, or our place in the scheme of things.

But there is a hint, even in "The Call of Cthulhu", of the long preparation these beings are capable of, though they may have (as is slightly hinted) attempted communication with any kind of mammals...

Wilbur as servant only has its appeal, but I think it is something which could go either way, depending on the degree of "outsideness" versus humanity" in his makeup. And, as the story hints:

aside from the external appearance of face and hands, the really human element in Wilbur Whateley must have been very small

Something which would seem to be confirmed by both Armitage's comments at the end of the tale, Wilbur's own diary entries, and the fact that the whippoorwills (psychopomps intent on capturing the souls of the dying) had such a reaction at Wilbur's passing:

Outside the window the shrilling of the whippoorwills had suddenly ceased, and above the murmurs of the gathering crowd there came the sound of a panic-struck whirring and fluttering. Against the moon vast clouds of feathery watchers rose and raced from sight, frantic at that which they had sought for prey.

Quite different from that which they had when attempting (and failing) to capture the soul of his grandfather, where they simply gradually quietened down.

If, as these passages suggest, Wilbur's human side was really quite small, then he may well have been "transfigured" before the assumption of the Old Ones, and while the tending of his brother (the question of whether that brother is truly an "archetypical manifestation" is debatable, I think) is something of a menial task -- again a possible mythic reference to Hercules' labors... another demigod, recall, who eventually joined the deities in the sky -- he may nonetheless have been eventually granted a place as a minor member of the Old Ones' family, so to speak...

What was this long planning,that could ensure this outcome?And how long when time is concerned about?And,according to the text,was there a really specific usefullness for humanity-"human blood required",speaks about the mass transfiguration of human bodies ,that is their usefullness:hosting material.Where is the involvment of human inteliigence except from the blind obedience?.....

Use of the term "long" is, of course, in reference to human conceptions of time, as it is very difficult to have something of any usual frame of reference with a being/force (Yog-Sothoth) about which it is said:

Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth.

But it becomes obvious from this excerpt from the Necronomicon that such plans and attempts have occurred before and will again, from time long past to that of the far future. That would indicate what we would term such long-range planning.

Yes ,armitage speaks, about the humanity"s "vital" role in this "Operation";after the domination ,they will be transferred ,to some unknown place for some unknown purposes....that is their summarized importance...

Actually, he doesn't mention humanity as being so taken, but only the earth:

the beings they were going to let in tangibly to wipe out the human race and drag the earth off to some nameless place for some nameless purpose

Again, emphasis added.

the only depedence from humanity, that i see in the tale, is that of accepting ,as servants their fate and just make an "invitation call" to the old ones!And the very fact ,that the old ones need to materialize in the human dimension ,by first using human hosts,speaks to me clearly ,about their inability to surpass the "cosmic laws" ,that bind them to other dimensions(and why not planets?......).The only laws,that bind them....that"s just my interpretation,even at a more closer look at the text-and it reminded me a lot of the time,when i was first reading that great horrific tale.Great thread.

"Why not planets"? Well, there is no reason some of Lovecraft's "deities" might not be so constricted, but there is certainly nothing in the stories themselves to indicate such. This was a concept which came along with Derleth, not Lovecraft. In HPL's tales, they were only "bound" due to some special circumstance: Cthulhu's entrapment in R'lyeh by its sinking; Yog-Sothoth's lack of stable (or semi-stable) corporeal form (not something which is unalterably the case, as hinted here and certainly seems to not be the case in "Through the Gates of the Silver Key"... at least, not entirely). Nyarlathotep was only held back in his manifestation as "the haunter of the dark", where light would "banish" him. (But then, Nyarlathotep is a notoriously difficult figure to pin down, as his attributes change radically from tale to tale, leading to the common misperception of him as a "shape-shifter", which is is not, in the usual sense anyway.)

And, related to this aspect is the fact of the Old Ones' communication with humanity before the sinking of R'lyeh:

In the elder time chosen men had talked with the entombed Old Ones in dreams, but then something had happened. The great stone city R’lyeh, with its monoliths and sepulchres, had sunk beneath the waves; and the deep waters, full of the one primal mystery through which not even thought can pass, had cut off the spectral intercourse.

Again, all natural phenomena which affects their ability to carry out their plans immediately, without some form of mediation or aid... though, again, any sort of organic life with the proper dexterity and a slight degree of intelligence would do.

At any rate, I hope I got everything I had in the first attempt. If not, or if there's something you feel I haven't responded to properly, please let me know. As you say, it's a very enjoyable discussion, and I appreciate the time, effort, and thought that go into such posts as we've got here....