Motives for Littlefinger (spoilers)

[Sereph]

Hi all,

I've just finished re-reading the books for the i'm-not-sure-how-many-times time and i was trying to figure out Littlefinger's motives for starting the war and what (if anything) Sansa will end up doing with this knowledge.

So a quick recap....Lysa has Sansa hanging out of the moon door and Petyr walks in. Lysa is being rather more crazy than normal but says that she killed Jon and sent the letter to Cat because Petyr had told her to. Now we all know that the war has been good for Littlefinger, he's risen pretty high in terms of land but would he have started a war on the off chance or did he start it thinking he would work out a way to prosper?

The second part then is will Sansa use the knowledge. Petyr seems obsessed with her but is she strong minded enough to one day use her knowledge against him? By the end of the 4th book she is referring to him as 'father' but this could just be her playing the game and biding her time. I guess i just really want Sansa to do something...anything! Her chapters are mainly dull but George must have a plan for her or he'd have killed her off already, waiting 4 books then killing her off without her doing anything would just make me cheer not rue a character loss.

Sorry if this has been covered / talked to death in the past, i did a quick scan of the forum and couldn't find anything but i'm quite ready to be shot down with a list of threads

 

[The Ace]

I always thought he was a power-mad selfish slimeball, but I could be mistaken.

 

[The Imp]

From last to first- I think that Sansa has been all about emotional and intellectual growth. If you compare the Sansa that we are introduced to in AGOT with the Sansa that we have right now it's almost as if we are looking at two different people. Layer upon layer of innocence have been stripped away. The fantasy world that she used to live in, the one that saw her in love with the "Gallant Joffrey" and dreaming that she was bringing the Jonquil and FLorien story to life with Ser Dontos. What we have now is a clear eyed pragmatist that is training under a master player of the game of thrones and will likely surpass him at some point. It wouldn't shock me in the least to have Littlefinger meet an untimely demise because he taight Sansa too well and she outfoxed him.

As for Littlefinger's motives, The Ace just said it. It's all about power for him, and being smarter than everyone else. It became clear to him early on, maybe with the duel for Cat that he had with Brandon Stark. He must have realized then that he would never get what he wanted by being able to use physical force. The best weapon he had was his mind, and from that point on he honed his mental skills to the point where he was the equal of nearly any person in the 7 Kingdoms. I don't think Littlefinger wants to actually rule, but rather, I think he much more enjoys being able to manipulate people and subsequent events so that the people who actually are inm charge don't even know trhat it was his plan that they fullfilled.

Of course, we may come to find out that there is some link with Illyrio, or someone "bigger" than both of them. Wouldn't THAT be fun.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Sansa is one of the few characters that i havent grown to like or respect from the beginning of her character development to the present. After finishing AFFC for the first time, Jaimie became one of my favorite characters until i remebered that he pushed Bran from the window. (after re-reading Bran's POV's and his subsequent whining and being somewhat annoying i didnt feel as bad, i know kinda harsh) However, with Sansa, she was in my opinion the reason Ned is a head shorter. Ned should have enforced a "No Snitching" clause for their trip to Kings Landing. Also, she pretty much had a red carpet layed out for her from King's landing to the Vale. Arya had to kill and pillage to get to where she's at from KL. I agree that she has matured and hardened throughout her journey, but i cant see her being no more or less than a Cersie type of character if she was to grow older.

Little Finger is a master manipulater as previously suggested, and I'm just as curious to see how his character unfolds completely. For some reason his obsession over Sansa still strikes me as being a little pedophilic though, even for this place in time when it is somewhat common for grown men to be with newly flowered girls. I guess its the whole father/daughter persona their putting on and he's still asking for intimate kisses.

@ Imp, that would be pretty interesting to see if Illyrio and Little finger are working for a higher entity. Good thought....

 

[Sereph]

As i say, i'm really hoping that Sansa's character develops which should lead her to being a major player of the Game of Thrones. I understand that Littlefinger is a power-mad selfish slimeball but he's also very clever and doesn't leave trails back to him so that he always seems innocent until it's too late. I just cant accept that he was the one who facilitated starting a war (a war in which he had no guarantee of survival) just because he has a massive ego problem. I was thinking more along the lines of the Imp in that i'm wondering who he's working with and for what end. We know he conspired with the Tyrells for Joffery's death, but is it just with them or maybe Illyrio or someone else entirely?

Also the Sansa infatuation is just him harking back to his unrequited love of Catelyn, it's mentioned a lot that Sansa takes after her and she would be about the same age that Cat was when Littlefinger was fostered with her.

 

[Boaz]

Sereph, Here are some threads... Littlefinger, Little finger or major player?, Sansa, Player in training or pawn?, Sansa's future, Sansa, and Sansa.

Reasons for Baelish's actions... Well, he could be motivated by honor, revenge, power and fun.

Honor: I've speculated before that mayhaps Littlefinger is working towards restoring the Targaryens. The main reason I have for this is that of all the family names in the Seven Kingdoms, only Baelish seems to have the Targaryen AE. My wild guess is that Baelish is Valyrian for 'Son of Baelor'... ergo Littlefinger is a ******* descendent of Baelor the Blessed.

Revenge: We know that Baelish hates the Tullys and the Starks. He got revenge upon both Brandon and Eddard by betraying Eddard to Cersei.

Power: Littlefinger likes being in charge. Mayhaps he wants total power.

Fun: Littlefinger likes outmaneuvering other power brokers. He enjoys making pawns dance to his tune. He may be doing it all for the thrill...

Baelish currently rules the Vale through his stepson, Robert. Is this just a trial run? Could he rule the entire kingdom through a Queen or through an infant King? When the suitors encircled Lyssa, he snuck through and married her. As things stand now in King's Landing there are 1) a boy King who needs a strong Regent, 2) an imprisoned Queen Mother in need of rescuing, 3) a young Queen twice widowed. Littlefinger might murder, save, or let fate deal with any two of them and still sweep in to rule. And then there's Myrcella... she's a long ways out of his grasp at the moment, but could he manipulate a Sand Snake?

As for Sansa, I don't think Baelish is obsessed with her. He was obsessed with Catelyn. When Brandon almost killed him, Baelish discarded the idea of romance. He hardened his heart. He uses whores to fulfill any desires he has. He used Lyssa for at least fifteen years. He knows the difference between Catelyn and Lyssa, Catelyn and whores, and he knows the difference between Catelyn and Sansa. The main reason he knows Sansa is not his Cat is that he hates Brandon and Eddard. Althought Sansa looks like Catelyn, I believe Baelish views her as the daughter of Eddard and the niece of Brandon.

If he deflowers her, it will not be to try to find romance with a new Cat... no, it will be to dishonor Eddard and Brandon even further.

I believe it pleases Baelish to make Sansa think that he honors her for her mother's sake. But I think he's using her for her father's sake. Baelish could easily have said, "She's my serving girl." but he did not. Instead he convinced Sansa to become Alayne Stone, his ******* daughter. In his mind, he's further degrading Eddard Stark by calling Sansa's paternity into question.

If Sansa overcomes Littlefinger, then to my mind, it will start here. Baelish might go overboard in his charade of 'Petyr and Alayne' that he begins to desire Alayne as his ******* daughter by Catelyn. Sansa will never outsmart Baelish, but he might overestimate his "daughter's" loyalty down the road.

Just some thoughts...

 

[devilsgrin]

well said Boaz.
With the exception of my thinking that Sansa will eventually outsmart Petyr, i agree completely with the motivations of Littlefinger. I don't think its about overt, obvious power for him, but Being the Power seems to me to be his motivation. Of course, rising to the status of Lord of one of the Great Houses... a new great house even... would fit the ego of a lord from the Fingers.
Don't know about him being a Targ or Valyrian... an interesting theory tho, when you do consider the spelling of his name.

Myrcella would be an unlikely prospect, considering she is likely to die from her wounds at the hands of Ser Gerald Dayne. But dominating Tommen would be easy for someone as skilled at The Game as Petyr. Margeary would be a poor choice, she has the Queen of Thorns in her corner, and she's as gifted a Player as Petyr is. Cercei is easily manipulated, but her usefulness is now in question, especially with the likelihood of her losing her head.

a thought occurs... perhaps little Robert is actually Petyr's ******* son... Lysa was madly in love with him afterall, and if they were having an affair behind Jon Arryn's back, could not the sickly little brat be his own son?

 

[No One]

This is interesting stuff for an interesting character. You guys have summed it up nicely (though I'd say his obsession with Sansa has more to do with Catelyn rather than Ned, re: Imp).

Here's a couple of points though, for consideration: 1) He did warn Ned and give him smart counsil on how to handle Robert's death, so it could be argued that he had no real interest in who sits the throne, only in creating the chaos that followed, allowing him to further his own plans while everyone else worried about the big seat. That also brings into question whether or not he would have still betrayed Ned at some future stage had Ned taken the Regency (though it did ultimately give him Sansa). 2) and I'll want to re-read this part, but I thought the reaction of Petyr's "subjects" in AFFC reflected quite well on him. It seemed to me that he was well-respected back at his ancestral home and it established that Petyr did not, or could not, see himself as any kind of "high nobility", (which made him a lot more likeable in some regards). It also established that he knows not to reach too far or too deep into the power-struggle for the throne, which is what makes him the real master of the game, so to speak, because he has an objectivity that others, like Cersei, completely lack. As I see it, he's a manipulator, not a usurper (even if he has done quite a bit of that with Harrenhal and the Eyrie. Again, means to an end). So I'm not convinced that Petyr is all about power, but rather someone who knows how to get it, use it, and, most importantly, get rid of it before the hammer falls.

If his obsession with Sansa is central to everything he does, then he's already got much of what he wants (which probably doesn't bode well for her future husband, when/if Sansa is restored to Winterfell). If she isn't his prime motivator, then I still think his agenda is personal, rather than factional. Then again, his involvement with the Queen of Thornes may go deeper still or Boaz is right and Baelish is derived from Baelor (chances are one of those crazy ideas will come up trumps).

Oh, and Sereph - Hi.

 

[Koopa]

Resentment, hate and jealousy?

Jealousy --> wanting Catelyn, but not being able to get her for a number of reasons. Him being a not-so powerful lord, him being weak physically, ... . Coupled with jealousy of his holding, his fingers in the vale being basically worthless, and him wating more then that place.

Hate --> Against Brandon, but even more Ned, since Ned is the perfect figurehead of someone being able to act all honourable, high and mighty because of his birth. yes Ned is good to his people under him, but he does expect to be obeyed. A great lord, the complete opposite of littlefinger.

resentment --> for always being looked down upon, because of his physical built, holdings, what the Hoster Tully did to him, ... .

 

[chairface]

About the name Baelish - it sounds Valyrian because most likely it is. The Baelish house (Petyr's father or grandfather? I can't remember) came over from Braavos rather recently, and was only awarded lands because a Baelish impressed an Arryn in war (again, I don't remember specifics. Perhaps the Ninepenny Kings?). I'm pretty sure this is all discussed when Sansa sees the old version of the Baelish arms, the head of the Titan, when they first arrive in the Vale. It was Petyr who decided to change the arms to a hummingbird.

Also, I know Braavos wasn't a Valyrian colony, but "ae" plus recently from Essos equals Valyrian in my mind.

 

[Eulalia]

I don't suppose it's too unlikely that a character as clever and ambitious like Littlefinger, who had to scheme and work hard to achieve what he has, resents the more entitled nobility. (who seem intent on self destruction)

Just to be difficult, um, Shae has an "ae".

 

[Boaz]

Mayhaps that is why Tyraen Targaryen liked her so much...

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

At the end of AFFC, Jaimie stated (can't remember the exact quote) that with Littlefingers low birth and ambition that he would make a perfect Hand for Tommen. I don't know, but I usually take anything that Jaimie says with a little more interest due to him being so close to Aerys and his darkest secrets. If there is anyone that would know parentage or bloodlines it should be Jaimie. Not to mention his dedication to reading the history of the Kingsgaurd.

 

[chairface]

Mayhaps that is why Tyraen Targaryen liked her so much...

I suppose you could say he liked her to daeth.

 

[soulsinging]

This is interesting stuff for an interesting character. You guys have summed it up nicely (though I'd say his obsession with Sansa has more to do with Catelyn rather than Ned, re: Imp).

Here's a couple of points though, for consideration: 1) He did warn Ned and give him smart counsil on how to handle Robert's death, so it could be argued that he had no real interest in who sits the throne, only in creating the chaos that followed, allowing him to further his own plans while everyone else worried about the big seat. That also brings into question whether or not he would have still betrayed Ned at some future stage had Ned taken the Regency (though it did ultimately give him Sansa). 2) and I'll want to re-read this part, but I thought the reaction of Petyr's "subjects" in AFFC reflected quite well on him. It seemed to me that he was well-respected back at his ancestral home and it established that Petyr did not, or could not, see himself as any kind of "high nobility", (which made him a lot more likeable in some regards). It also established that he knows not to reach too far or too deep into the power-struggle for the throne, which is what makes him the real master of the game, so to speak, because he has an objectivity that others, like Cersei, completely lack. As I see it, he's a manipulator, not a usurper (even if he has done quite a bit of that with Harrenhal and the Eyrie. Again, means to an end). So I'm not convinced that Petyr is all about power, but rather someone who knows how to get it, use it, and, most importantly, get rid of it before the hammer falls.

You formulated what I was thinking pretty well. I don't really see Petyr having designs on the throne. He has no real vision for rule nor any apparent desire for it (somewhat like Robert in that sense, as opposed to the Lannisters that thrive on being in that position or Ned who is a true believer in what it stands for). I think he's kind of the ultimate con man... he does it not because he lusts for power per se (though I do think he wants to be a lord just to be on equal footing with those that have humiliated him), but because he enjoys pulling the strings and watching his "betters" dance to his schemes all while completely unaware of his hand. I can see this being his downfall... while he seems plenty pleased with himself now, I see him overreaching eventually just because it annoys him that nobody can see how truly clever he is and he will one day out himself to feed his ego with disastrous results.

 

[Sereph]

Yay, thanks Boaz, i knew someone would manage to dig up a few old Littlefinger threads that i'd completely overlooked. I've come down on a similar side to Noone and soulsinging, i don't buy that his motives are resentment or jealousy he seems to play the game too well for that, his decisions seem rational and clear rather than driven by strong emotion. I hadn't thought about the advice he gave to Ned but that does seem to point at him pulling the strings just because he can, always looking for his own advantage...although there's still a little part of me that thinks he's working with someone, sowing chaos for now for a bigger goal at the end.

 

[Eulalia]

I am re reading AFFC. I wondered whether one reason LF kissed Sansa, was that he knew Lysa was looking out the window, and was setting off a somewhat predictable reaction, setting himself up for Sansa to believe that he is her protector. Is that too much?

 

[southron sword]

Honor: I've speculated before that mayhaps Littlefinger is working towards restoring the Targaryens. The main reason I have for this is that of all the family names in the Seven Kingdoms, only Baelish seems to have the Targaryen AE. My wild guess is that Baelish is Valyrian for 'Son of Baelor'... ergo Littlefinger is a ******* descendent of Baelor the Blessed.

Interesting. And coupled with Imp's theory that he is working with Illyrio, mayhaps the two are scheming for Dany. If LF has Targaryen blood then he may plan on eventually seeing Dany in the seven kingdoms and when she arrives he would have a lot of power and control of armies. It'd make Dany's return a lot easier and then, he swoops in and marries Dany, then he is King..... assuming Dany says yes. By then Dany could be losing her mind with this "MADNESS BUG" the Targaryens seem to catch and she may just have Drogon "Dracarys" his arse.....

 

[Eulalia]

You mean Lysa was just a warm up for LF!

I thought Baelor was ultra chaste. Did he mess up?

 

[No One]

I am re reading AFFC. I wondered whether one reason LF kissed Sansa, was that he knew Lysa was looking out the window, and was setting off a somewhat predictable reaction, setting himself up for Sansa to believe that he is her protector. Is that too much?

I don't think that's too much at all to stipulate, even though it almost backfired. Given Petyr's penchant for manipulation, I'd say that's more than plausible, though I daresay the slimey, and strangely admirable, git enjoyed himself while doing it.

In fact, given my stance that his motives are personal - and the counter-argument that he must surely, at some point, want to be recognized for his playing Blackadder to the incompetent royalty - makes me think that Petyr would be satisfied with having only the person he loves (at present, Sansa) knowing of his 'genius'.