Multiple POVs

[gadgetmind]

I've tried to limit how many POVs I use, and strictly use only one per scene, but I still seem to have a fair few.

One character predominates, one other key person has a dozen or so scenes, another a smattering, but then there are nearly a couple of dozen scenes all from different POVs.

I've used these to show how the world is, to give insights I couldn't do any other way, and at times just to entertain. One example is my "thousand nasty words" in critiques. This scene is one of what I'm calling vignettes, which are typically 1k-1.5k words. Most of them are essential to the plot, but a few of which are perhaps a little self-indulgent and optional.

Thoughts?

BTW, everything is 3rd person, which is because it's how I started out, and it's what I'm most comfortable with.

Ian

 

[anthorn]

Pefectly acceptable. Sounds like a good idea and way to keep the chapters flowing. When you mean Vignettes are you on about writing small paragraphs from these P.O.Vs? Just to satisfy my curiosity I think this would be fine, I'm doing the same in my own work, having a predominant POV which i used to frame the chapter.

 

[digs]

To be honest, I think POVs can be anything goes (within reason) - as long as you have the skill to pull it off. GRRM for example has heaps of POV characters, but I think they're limited to one per chapter/segment. I've read other authors who've managed to seamlessly switch POVs in the middle of flowing text without me really noticing, which is pretty skillful.

When I was working on my latest abandoned work in progress I tried to have two POVs in the same area per chapter, so that I could give different perspectives on the same events - but it began to feel a little stilted and formulaic, which may be one reason I ditched it. Your idea sounds good but I wouldn't overly worry about it too much - maybe see where the story takes you and you can always change it around later.

 

[gadgetmind]

Vignettes maybe isn't the right word, but it's all I could think of!

My structure is unusual, perhaps because of my hierarchical way of tackling pretty much everything. I have chapters that contain typically 3-4 scenes, but I'm not strict with this. Some scenes are as short as 600 words, some as long as 4k, but 2-3k is typical. Each scene has a one word title and each chapter has a one word title.

Each scene is strictly from a single POV, and I try to be "in close" with humans and a trifle "further away" with most 'bots. In some of the 'bot scenes, there is the slightest hint of objective rather than subjective, but I think I just about get away with it. If not, it will have to be fixed.

The "vignettes" stand away from the main action, and while some definitely advance the plot, others show how humans and 'bots interact. This does involve some occasional blood spilling, but I prefer to leave most of this in the reader's mind rather than spraying it around everywhere.

Ian

 

[Boneman]

The rules on pov are still a work-in-progress, and I think you're doing the right way. As digs says, if you have the skill, you can change pov at any time, if you get away with it. Your way is eminently sensible, and I did go and look at the 1,000 nasty words to see how you'd done it. I try and stick with one pov for a chapter.

If the writing is good, you can write your own rules. Almost.

 

[Precise Calibre]

Beating a dead herring, but skill is what will pull it off.

I personally use one POV per chapter-segment (between 5 asterisks, even if it's not a new chapter). I try to limit how many POVs I use per story, however, as I want to bring the reader in close to the characters of most importance. Occasionally I'll throw in a cannon-fodder view-point (one-shot, one-use) to give a vantage point on events to draw attention to certain aspects of importance.

 

[gadgetmind]

Thanks all. Sounds like my approach is valid.

I've tried to limit POVs, but it's not always possible. If my main character is there throughout the scene, I use said character's POV, failing that, it's along to the next in line.

I actually felt a sense of loss when my threads starting merging and characters met. I'd enjoyed writing from their POVs and knew my opportunities would now be limited. OK, I still have their dialogue, but this can never capture their fears, hopes and dreams in quite the same way.

Ian

 

[The Judge]

I agree with everyone else about the POVs, namely use as many as you need to tell the story, but keep them separated. In WIP1 I have a number of changes of POV within a scene, ie the people are in the same locale at the same time, but I divide them with a couple of blank lines**, and the end of each viewpoint sub-section is given a proper pay-off line, signalling the conclusion. I think it works, and the technique appeared in a piece which has been professionally critted and it passed without comment, so it seems OK.

** I use asterisks to denote changes of scene, ie different locales or time, so it isn't possible to use them again for simple POV changes. I tried using 5 and 1 asterisks respectively, but it just got confusing!

The only thing that concerns me a little, Ian, is the vignettes which don't advance the plot. I tried these in an attempt to recycle a prologue which no one liked, but in my case they stood outside the chapters in italics, pointing to the fact they were internal monologue. I liked them, but they didn't work, and just slowed things down. So you might need to look at them with a very critical eye to see if they are serving the story.

In this respect I'm reminded of Gaiman's American Gods, which has a number of vignettes which don't advance the main plot, but which show certain events happening which have a bearing on it. Some of them were OK, but for my taste there were too many and too irrelevant, and I've read other comments along the same lines. (But I read a "Director's Cut" version, so I don't know whether the original was edited any differently in respect of these.)

 

[Anne Lyle]

Hi Ian

The novel I recently finished is structured a lot like yours. Only 3 PoVs, but as the book went along I found myself switching more and more often. Some chapters have as many as 5 scenes, which can be as short as 250 words. I found it worked well as a tension-builder, as well as being a lot of fun to write. And none of my beta-readers complained about being disoriented.

Also, whilst some sections of the story had the PoV characters apart, in others they were together in different combinations, so I got a lot of mileage out of giving each character's take on the same situation. Not repeating it Rashomon-style, but just showing the first part of a scene from one PoV then switching - with the choice of PoV based on whose reactions would be most interesting/revealing at that point. So, no need to limit yourself, just because the storylines merge!

 

[gadgetmind]

you might need to look at them with a very critical eye to see if they are serving the story.

Agreed. For most of them, I'll revisit the scene and/or characters later to show how the mainline events have changed things. For others, I'll refer to the action in the mainline, which will hopefully tie them in. If it doesn't work, I'll give them the chop and (hopefully) find a role for them in the future.

Some chapters have as many as 5 scenes, which can be as short as 250 words. I found it worked well as a tension-builder, as well as being a lot of fun to write.

Now I'm in the final third of the book, I have dropped some chapter intros (bug reports and release notes for a 'bot!) and am tending towards shorter scenes.

showing the first part of a scene from one PoV then switching

I've been (far too) strict and each scene is from a single POV, and I'm not doing the blank line trick to change POV. Maybe I should, maybe I will in future, but currently it's one scene, one POV.

Ian
P.S. Hey, TJ, look at this fancy multi-quoting. ;-)

 

[Anne Lyle]

I am doing the blank line thing - and using "scene" ambiguously. Sorry!

On the one hand I use it to mean "a single stretch of narrative from one PoV" (and thus an individual document in Scrivener) but I also use it in the more cinematic sense of "a series of related events with a unified time/location". So, for example, the second half of chapter 4 is set in an tavern on a particular evening, but the narrative switches between all 3 PoV characters over the course of that "scene", with line-breaks between each one.

 

[Ursa major]

I'm confused.

If two POV characters are together** but the narration at some point moves from one POV character's "shoulder" to the other POV's, doesn't this still constitute a change of scene (if only because the perspective has changed)? In which case, why would the author have to differentiate between scene changes and POV changes? Aren't they, for all intents and purposes, the same. (In which case the means of identifying the change - e.g. a line break and no tab at the start of the first paragraph - should be the same for both.)

Or is there something specific about a POV change that has to be singled out?


By the way, this is an example of how Joe Abercrombie does it in his forthcoming book, The Heroes:

Joe Abercrombie | The Heroes Extract
​

Think of it as a rather quick and deadly version of La Ronde.



** - In the same room, for example, or on the same phone call.

.

 

[The Judge]

To me the scene is the overall aspect, ie location and time. So if everyone is in the pub, it would remain the same "scene" while they stayed there, and even possibly when they left, if we followed them out, and also the same "scene" despite the passing of time, if we passed it with them. If I changed viewpoint within that, I'd call it a sub-scene. If we left the pub to see something happening in the street, or we left the revellers revelling and the next thing we know it's 12 hours later, those would both be scene changes as far as I'm concerned. But that's just how I think of it.

And all I can say, Ursa, is that when I put in asterisks between POV change within the same overall scene -- same locale and same time -- it was more confusing, because my critique group readers expected a full scene change, ie different locale or a different time. I'm not fixated on it, and I'd certainly amend it if I thought it helped the story (or to sell it!) but so far, this way works for me in helping achieve clarity. (Though in fact I'm not changing POV within the overall scene quite as much in WIP2, perhaps because I'm not having the same kind of big scenes which benefit from multi-views, or possibly because my technique has changed/improved.)

 

[Ursa major]

If your readers were getting confused, that's another matter, I suppose.


To be honest, the only times I quickly change POV - in the usual sense - involve people on different craft firing at each other, which sounds to be an entirely different matter to that which you describe.

There is, though, one scene where a complete (but short) letter is included. I don't indicate a strict scene change; although my scenes in the main story are "numbered" (for obscure reasons to do with the frame story, not revealed until the end of WIP4), I haven't incremented the scene counter for this intrusion from another voice, merely put a blank line at either end and placed the letter in italics.


By the way, I still recommend having a look at that extract from The Heroes to which I linked

 

[The Judge]

Yes, people shooting at each other from different craft would be new scenes to me, too. Shooting at each other in the same street, but from different hiding places, also.

Your WIPs sound much more interesting than mine!




Just had a peek at The Heroes, and in those circumstances, I'd have used asterisks, too. Although they are in the same locale(s) and time-frame, each one is basically separate, albeit linked to the preceding and following scenes, like a daisy chain of violence.

 

[Anne Lyle]

I'm confused.

If two POV characters are together** but the narration at some point moves from one POV character's "shoulder" to the other POV's, doesn't this still constitute a change of scene (if only because the perspective has changed)? In which case, why would the author have to differentiate between scene changes and POV changes? Aren't they, for all intents and purposes, the same. (In which case the means of identifying the change - e.g. a line break and no tab at the start of the first paragraph - should be the same for both.)

Or is there something specific about a POV change that has to be singled out?
.

I don't differentiate between them in the book - I use a double line break (or a # or * in the manuscript version) for a change of PoV, a change of location or a "fast forward" in time. I was just trying to be clear that "scene" means different things to different people, or in different circumstances.

When I'm plotting the book, I aim for every "scene" to have conflict and change - but sometimes that conflict/change is spread across the PoV switches between interacting characters. Ideally the reader will never notice - but I need to know exactly what effect I'm striving for.

 

[gadgetmind]

I can see that my current "one scene, one POV" approach is perhaps a bit limiting. It would certainly constrain me during heavy action scenes, but I already know how I'm going to handle those that I have. It also requires that I restrict scene entry and exit timings, and the "knowledge" I pass on, based on my chosen POV.

What's interesting is that I've been constructing scenes within these self-imposed rules without really being consciously aware of them!

For my next book ...

Ian

 

[Susan Boulton]

I can see that my current "one scene, one POV" approach is perhaps a bit limiting. It would certainly constrain me during heavy action scenes, but I already know how I'm going to handle those that I have. It also requires that I restrict scene entry and exit timings, and the "knowledge" I pass on, based on my chosen POV.

What's interesting is that I've been constructing scenes within these self-imposed rules without really being consciously aware of them!

For my next book ...

Ian

Do not see one scene one POV as limiting see it as a challenge. Can you convey the information you need to to the reader from that one POV? Using a lot of POVs does make things easier, but it can also make it harder is in it might be clear to you, but confusing to the reader. The changes are not clear and are really a form of head hopping. Also you need to realise that readers need a character to root for. Ask yourself how many times when you read a book do you skip through the POV of a character you don't like or cannot connect too.

When submitting a manuscript mark the POV changes clearly with * or #

 

[Anne Lyle]

I would definitely not call "one PoV per scene" limiting - it's how the majority of fiction is written. It's just one technique in your armoury, and one you should use where appropriate. Particularly if you have a lot of PoV characters, you want to keep everything else simple. I have whole chapters from a single PoV at the start of my book, to get those characters fixed in my readers' heads - I don't start switching around until later.

I reckon there's room for one writing "gimmick" in any book - e.g. I wouldn't use a bunch of PoVs plus lots of flashbacks. Throw in too many variables and it gets confusing for the reader, especially in SF&F where there's usually already a steep learning curve in terms of world-building details.

 

[gadgetmind]

I've been very careful with flashbacks, and have just decided that my "vignettes" are the one gimmick that I'm allowed.

I'd done a fair bit of writing before I started to read around to establish what the accepted "rules" were. I quickly found the phrase "head hopping" and checked for examples. Fortunately, there was but one minor outbreak, which was quickly quelled, and some minor objective POV in an otherwise subjective scene. As that scene is from the POV of a minor 'bot, I have left it for now as not a single reader has commented on it.

I do worry that I have too many characters that I'm expecting the reader to "root for" - at least two main ones, and a smattering of others. My protagonists are also slightly ambiguous, but I'm of the view that mankind is pretty nasty as a species without me needing a "Dr. Evil" at the centre.

Ian