Grammar Help

briantm

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Joined
Jun 30, 2008
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5
Hi,

I was wondering if I could get a little help with my grammar.

I'm not being lazy. I have Stunk and White's "The Elements of Style" open in front of me and I have been googling. :D

My main concern at the moment is comma use. Perhaps some artistic licence is permissible for pacing purposes, but probably doesn't do an amateur any good when submitting short stories.

An excerpt from something I wrote:

Sleek long black hair and long legs wrapped tight in black leather to match, Jack couldn't help but notice her enter the club. She stood out from the regular clientelle. At about four years older than their average, they consider her one of the "momma's and poppa's". Techs and trends move so fast, generation gaps click over far to often, Jack mused, thinking it a shame such a fine creature be considered an outsider here in this room full of proud freaks. Of course, Jack was a Poppa too. A person aware of the fads, both the ideas and the tech behind them, can easily adopt them and conform with the new batch of non-conformists. He was all too aware he lived in a time when a person with the right knowhow and the right money can be whoever they want to be, and whoever the world wants them to be at the same time.

From behind slimline sunglasses that just about disguised his intereset, Jack watched her walk an invisible tight rope to the bar, stopping an empty stools distance away from him.
"Sorry hun, members only," Gar, the barman, cut her off just as dark violet lips were parting.
"I just want a drink" she said, less than insulted but more than annoyed.

Where I see problems:

Sleek long black hair and long legs wrapped tight in black leather to match, Jack couldn't help but notice her enter the club.
Should be two sentences. The second claus should be first.

She stood out from the regular clientelle.
At about four years older than their average, they consider her one of the "momma's and poppa's".
Is this wrong?

Techs and trends move so fast, generation gaps click over far to often, Jack mused, thinking it a shame such a fine creature be considered an outsider here in this room full of proud freaks.
Just a badly constructed sentence in general? *cringe*

Of course, Jack was a Poppa too.

A person aware of the fads, both the ideas and the tech behind them, can easily adopt them and conform with the new batch of non-conformists.
Not too happy with this sentence either, but I think I'm ok here gramatically.

He was all too aware he lived in a time when a person with the right knowhow and the right money can be whoever they want to be, and whoever the world wants them to be at the same time.

From behind slimline sunglasses that just about disguised his intereset, Jack watched her walk an invisible tight rope to the bar, stopping an empty stools distance away from him.
HELP!

"Sorry hun, members only," Gar, the barman, cut her off just as dark violet lips were parting.
Is this ok?

"I just want a drink" she said, less than insulted but more than annoyed.
What about this?


It's an old piece so looking back now I'm not happy with it.

But hopefully I can learn from it.



Thanks

Brian
 
Hi, Brian. I am not an expert and it's been ages since I reviewed commas, but i will give it a go.

Sleek long black hair and long legs wrapped tight in black leather to match, Jack couldn't help but notice her enter the club. I think the 2 sides of your comma should be swapped because it will flow much better.

She stood out from the regular clientelle. At about four years older than their average, they considered her one of the "Momma's and Poppa's". Are Momma's and Moppa's meant to be possessive or plural, because for plural, drop the apostrophes?

Techs and trends move so fast, generation gaps click over far to oftenperiod

I'm sure there is a way to rework the sentence if you want to kep it as one, but this splitting just sounds better to my ear.

, Jack mused, thinking (I)it was a shame such a fine creature be considered an outsider here in this room full of proud freaks.

Of course, Jack was a Poppa too.

A person aware of the fads, both the ideas and the tech behind them, cancould easily adopt them and conform with the new batch of non-conformists.

He was all too aware he lived in a time when a person with the right knowhow and the right (amount of) moneycancould be whoever they want to be, and whoever the world wants them to be at the same time.
Right money makes me think type of money, but i assume you meant amount.

From behind slimline sunglasses that just about disguised his intereset, Jack watched her walk an invisible tight rope to the bar, stopping ant empty stools distance away from him.

"Sorry hun Hon, members only," Gar, the barman, cut her off just as dark violet lips were parting.

"I just want a drink," she said, less than insulted but more than annoyed.

Red: get rid of, blue: correction. The can/could conundrum is a tense issue. And really, not expert at all...I would wait to see if more folks offer thier advice and likely one of us will be right on :D
 
Damme if I can't find it, but I know someone posted an excellent site/blog that covered the use of the comma, really well. Hang on a while and I'm sure the person who did will be along to point you in the right direction. If I do find it, I'll put it up...
 
Unfortunately, you've a few more problems here than simply your comma use.

Sleek long black hair and long legs wrapped tight in black leather to match, Jack couldn't help but notice her enter the club.
Should be two sentences. The second claus should be first.
This is a dangling participle -- I'm pretty sure I've written about this in The Toolbox -- a sticky which appears to have gone walkabout from Aspiring Writers. I'll try and find it and link to it for you when I've finished. Basically, the sentence as written means that it is Jack who has the long hair and legs. It is possible to have sentences in this order but the subject of each must agree -- but in this particular case I think you're better off putting a full stop and making the first part a fragment and then starting the next "The woman was a real beauty and Jack..." or whatever.

She stood out from the regular clientelle. [spelling - clientele]
At about four years older than their average, they consider her one of the "momma's and poppa's".
Is this wrong?
The comma use is fine, but the second sentence itself is not at all clear. Firstly, it is again a dangling participle -- she is the subject of the first clause, "they" (whoever they are) the subject of the second. At BookStop points out, you've moved to present tense with "consider" which may be intentional since this is a continuing situation, but I'd advise against it. The "momma's and poppa's" shouldn't be in inverted commas unless this is a phrase which has a special meaning. I personally wouldn't capitalise the words as BookStop has unless you wish to make a point of the names (or the woman is, indeed, one of the group) but it isn't wrong to do so. However, you have to be consistent -- you can't use lower case here and then upper case later on as you have done. The possessive apostrophes are most definitely wrong -- these are simple plurals and should just have the "s" tacked on the end as normal.

Techs and trends move so fast, generation gaps click over far to [spelling -- too] often, Jack mused, thinking it a shame such a fine creature be considered an outsider here in this room full of proud freaks.
Just a badly constructed sentence in general? *cringe*
Well... Again you've gone into present tense which makes for ungainly reading. Generation gaps clicking over seems, well, odd... The "be" on its own seems like an attempt at a subjunctive but it fails since the set up isn't right, so you need "should be" or even "was". The use of "here" and "this" is again present tense and confusing.

Of course, Jack was a Poppa too.
This is where you have missed a comma -- you need one before "too".

A person aware of the fads, both the ideas and the tech behind them, can easily adopt them and conform with the new batch of non-conformists.
Not too happy with this sentence either, but I think I'm ok here gramatically.
It's "conform to" rather than "with" I think, but otherwise grammatically OK.

He was all too aware he lived in a time when a person with the right knowhow and the right money can be whoever they want to be, and whoever the world wants them to be at the same time.
A difficult one. At first sight this is missing a comma -- you need one before "at the same time" in order to separate out the sub-clause ("and whoever the world... to be") properly. But if you do that, those last four words should really refer only to the clause before that (ie the "whoever they want to be") and, of course, they actually refer to both clauses together. I think you're better off taking out the first comma or re-structuring the sentence altogether. Strictly speaking, it should be "whomever the world..." but this is undoubtedly too formal for your narrator. I'd hyphenate know-how as I don't think it's accepted as a single word as yet. And again you have a mix of past and present tense which makes the whole sentence uneasy.

From behind slimline sunglasses that just about disguised his intereset, [spelling -- interest] Jack watched her walk an invisible tight rope to the bar, stopping an empty stools distance away from him.
HELP!
Tightrope is all one word, otherwise it is a rope which happens not to be slack, which is a different thing. The "stopping" strictly refers to Jack not the woman, so I'd amend this by deleting the comma and changing it to "and then stop" to make it clear. You need a possessive apostrophe in "stool's".

"Sorry hun, members only," Gar, the barman, cut her off just as dark violet lips were parting.
Is this ok?
Not quite. Another comma after "Sorry" and I'd spell it as "hon" or "Hon" as BookStop has. More importantly, you've (probably) mispunctuated the dialogue. To my mind it should be " "...members only." Gar, the barman, cut her off..." which requires a full stop not a comma. If you had used "said" instead of "cut her off" then your current punctuation would be right. (There is room to argue you're fine here as this is an effective replacement of "said" but I'm being a purist.)

"I just want a drink" she said, less than insulted but more than annoyed.
What about this?
Comma needed after "drink".


It reads to me as if you were here attempting a style of writing that you thought was somehow more literary than how you would normally talk, and it is for this reason you've made the grammatical mistakes. That and the use of present tense makes it a difficult read, frankly.

As for comma use in general, again there's a piece on this in The Toolbox, if I can find it...

I hope that helps a little.



EDIT: Found it http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/51521-the-toolbox.html
 
Last edited:
The Toolbox is stickied in Writing Resources, TJ.


Oops, you've already found it. That'll teach me to leap before I look (at the whole of the post). :eek:
 
As I explained in another thread just a moment ago, I don't have all the words for what's right, but since TJ has them, I don't need to use them here. Instead, I can offer what would look right to me, and everyone can throw Skittles at me should I lead you astray of TJ's correctitude.

With sleek, long black hair and long (get rid of one of the longs) legs wrapped tight in black leather to match, she entered the club. Jack couldn't help but take notice; she stood out from the regular clientele.

|| Pause.

This sentence (original coupling: She stood out from the regular clientelle. At about four years older than their average, they consider her one of the "momma's and poppa's".) being followed by what the clubbers call her tells the reader that she's not the regular clientele because she's four years older than the average member. You go on to talk about techs and trends, though, so you imply that the reason she stands out is instead related to the fact that she's not keeping up with them. Given that you've only told us she has long legs and hair, both of which are currently black, there's no illustration of trending present, for good or bad. If you set something up (e.x. "She was unusual.") follow it up as soon as possible with why ("She was unusual, if for no other reason than the fact that florescent pink hair was not often seen within the Vatican.").

You may continue, now.

The club's regulars regarded her as something they liked to call a "momma", though she couldn't have been more four years older than their eldest. Techs and trends moved so fast, though, and generational gaps clicked over so often that it wasn't always easy to stay en vogue long enough to please them. Jack mused about it, thinking it a shame that such a fine creature would be considered an outsider here, in this room full of proud freaks. But then, Jack was a "poppa", too -- a person aware of the fads, both the ideas and the tech behind them, who could easily adopt them and conform to [or alongside] the new batch of non-conformists, but with the freedom to ignore them.
I'm going to stop you there for a second.

You said that she was a momma because she's four years older than their average, yet what you defined a papa as being is a chameleon who stays on top of the trends and manages to fit in. I'm assuming that's not necessarily what you meant. Whether it is or isn't, though, it's something you need to be aware of when writing, that we don't know the actual intent in your head from sentence to sentence, so you have to make sure you give us all pertinent information.

Additionally, you give conflicting definitions for "mommas and poppas". I can list "Older than the average", "techs and trends" play a part, and "a person aware of the fads, both the ideas and the tech behind them . . .". The last is what confuses the whole mess of it, and it's because "mommas and papas" implies a generational gap, so the "four years older" is understandable, it's therefore assumed that someone outside what they consider to be their generation wouldn't be able to keep up with their constantly changing trends, and you define "papa" as someone who does just that, someone who keeps up. You don't want to do that to us, you want us to know exactly what you mean.

Oh, and if you put "momma" in quotations, you should put "papa" in quotations as well. It indicates that he acknowledges the terms, but only that they exist, that they're used to describe people like the two of them, not that he uses them regularly himself. It sets him apart, marks him as an outsider better than telling us he is one.

Let us continue, though.

He was all too aware that he lived in a time where a person with the right know-how and the right money could be whomever they wanted to be, as well as whomever the world wanted them to be at the same time.

Jack watched her walk an invisible tight rope to the bar from behind slimline sunglasses that only almost disguised his interest. She stopped just a bar stool's breadth away from him.

Gar, the barman, lifted a hand to cut her off just as dark violet lips were parting to order. "Sorry, hun, members only."

The Gar part: In my experience (since I can't speak with full grammatical authority here), because he is interjecting something before she does something herself, it's best to let us know that she was in the process of doing it before his words come into play. To have him speak before we know she was about to, gave me a sort of mental rewind. That is to say, once I knew he was interrupting her, I had to sort of re-imagine the scene to have her try to speak first. I don't think it's something as unforgiving as a rule, but it's a helpful guideline to keep in mind.

And to finish!

"I just want a drink," she said, her tone indicating that she was less than insulted, but more than annoyed.
That last part there, "less than insulted . . .", it's important to remember that if you're telling things from Jack's viewpoint, he can't know definitively that she was less than insulted, but more than annoyed. It's only his perception that she is. As such, it should be illustrated to the reader that the narrator isn't psychic.

So, I hope that as an illustration it's helpful. I know I always have an easier time internalizing these things when I'm given an example of an explanation, and an explanation of an example.
 
As I explained in another thread just a moment ago, I don't have all the words for what's right, but since TJ has them, I don't need to use them here.
I don't have many of them either -- just oddments I've picked up over the years in an entirely self-taught manner. And in fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that what I pointed out as dangling participles might well not be -- but they're behaving in the same way so the advice itself holds good, even if the name for them is wrong.


As to which**:
With sleek, long black hair and long ... legs wrapped tight in black leather to match, she entered the club. Jack couldn't help but take notice; she stood out from the regular clientele.
While grammatically correct, don't you feel that the first sentence is a little odd for what follows? As set up, it makes it seem that if her hair had been blonde, she wouldn't have entered the club. As told from her POV, and particularly if she's entering a place where such is de rigueur or she's in deliberate disguise, it would be fine, but in Jack's POV it seems, well, odd to me. What I mean might be more apparent if the sentence is inverted:
She entered the club with sleek black hair and long legs wrapped in tight black leather.
Again, in the right context this would be fine, but here in Jack's POV it doesn't seem right to my ears, though I couldn't give you chapter and verse as to why not. I operate on the "feel" of sentences, and my grammar knowledge rarely keeps pace.


** apologies if this looks like critiquing an almost critique but I'm interested in whether it's just me thinking this.
 
No, no, I don't take it as a critique of the critique. It's all too easy for me to get ahead of myself and start telling someone else's story in my own words, so I try to keep as true to their original expression as possible while still offering help. That's the only reason I didn't try to dissect the opener with a stronger scalpel.

If we're going to get right down to it, it would read better if it were something more along the lines of:

He couldn't help but stare; everything about the woman screamed that she was no casual member of the throng. It could have been the way she entered -- quiet, observant, but self-possessed--, or the way she gave the crush of bodies on the dance floor a dismissive looking-over, but more than anything else, it was the way the frenzied lights seemed to shy away from a cascade of sleek black hair, which brushed lightly against delicious looking hips clad in leather of the same shade, that kept his attention from wandering.


I don't feel 100% on that last sentence, it feels like it could be a run-on, but it might better establish his attention being hooked, and be more on the right grammatical path.
 
Thanks very much to everyone who has replied.

I appreciate you taking the time to help.

I've just given everything a quick read through but want to go over it more thoroughly. I'll post back here when I have.

Thanks again :D

Brian
 

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