POV page breaks

[Droflet]

A discussion with another writer brought up an issue that we could not agree on. When you put in a page break, within a chapter, to indicate a change of pov, what is the accepted industry standard. In my day, as I scratched hyroglyphics on a rock, the standard was:

*** in the middle of the page.

# is what my associate thinks is the standard.

Particularly with regard to the US publishing market, what are your thoughts, my Jedi Masters?

No doubt, if I have placed this in the wrong thread, I shall await the slap.

 

[GreenKidx]

I do believe this should be in the "General" sub forum. I'm sure one of the mods will be along shortly to move it.

As for point of view breaks... I have only ever seen or used "***". I know on occasion some others may use triple line spacing, date inserts or cute little doodles for this purpose. But I have never seen "#" .

 

[The Judge]

Well, I won't slap you for it, but GreenKidx is right, it's a GWD matter. Workshop is for, well, workshoppy things. So I'm moving the thread.

And I use *** also. (And %&^%$. But not to divide scenes.)

 

[Mouse]

# is standard manuscript format for publishers. *** tends to be more of what magazines ask for, though a lot do ask for # too. Just check the guidelines really. Some places just like a blank line.

This is good: William Shunn : Manuscript Format : Short Story And it's the 2010 version.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I think people initially get confused on that point because we've seen **** used in printed books — although publishers are getting fancier and fancier with the dingbats these days. Anyway, it's a choice by the book designer what to use, and they don't want you choosing it for them. For books, they want a blank line or # (which means a space if a copy editor marks up your manuscript by hand.*). I bow to Mouse's judgement when it comes to magazines, because I have never submitted a story to a magazine.



*I don't know if any of them actually do this anymore. But in the old days (shaking a gnarled finger at all the young folks here) writers had to learn all of those typesetters marks so that we could understand the corrections that came to us, and make our own corrections when we sent back the galleys. It's such a habit with me, I still make those marks when I'm editing from hard copy, although nobody else sees it.

 

[Droflet]

Thanks everyone. What, no slap? Now I feel unwanted. Sigh!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

An offense doesn't become slappable until and unless it's repeated too often.

So we're going to let you get by with it this time.

 

[Culhwch]

I usually number my scenes - I, II, III and so on - so no need for other marks. But I shall remember the hash mark rule, just in case.

 

[Ursa major]

I usually number my scenes - I, II, III and so on....

Snap!

I set the scene breaks as a heading (Heading 2) and let Word do the maths**. As I'm not sure how acceptable roman numbering of scenes would be to agents and publishers, I use a white font*** and an add asterisk (soon to be a hash) where the break is the first or last line on a page****.



** - And screw things up, occasionally. (I reset to I with every new chapter. When I move scenes between chapters, Word sometimes decides to impose a single series of roman numerals from that point to the end of the book. )

*** - Not as daft as it sounds (honest): I tend to have the document map open, so I can jump to a numbered scene without have to see the number on the page. (It also looks less silly where there is only one scene in a chapter.)

**** - I expect this could be automated with a macro but I can't be bothered to implement - or, rather, test - one.

 

[Culhwch]

I reset to I with every new chapter.

I do this, too. And my chapters aren't numbered, they are usually just titled by geographical location. I don't think I do nearly as much nuts-and-bolts formatting as you do, however. I more or less go with the flow.

As to how this scene-numbering would go over with agents or publishers - I can't see it being a problem, so long as it's straightforward and consistent. It'd be interesting to hear the perspectives of those amongst us that have first-hand experience of such things, though...

 

[Ursa major]

I do this, too. And my chapters aren't numbered, they are usually just titled by geographical location. I don't think I do nearly as much nuts-and-bolts formatting as you do, however. I more or less go with the flow.

My chapters aren't numbered as such, but the chapter titles do contain a date. As there are two parallel story threads in WiP1, these chapter titles are not necessarily unique. However, chapters sharing a title are always in different, named, sections (acts?) or different books.

After years of having to format documents to others' formats (as in bid responses**), the anal need to organise my formatting now comes naturally o); there's no real time overhead for me.

As to how this scene-numbering would go over with agents or publishers - I can't see it being a problem, so long as it's straightforward and consistent. It'd be interesting to hear the perspectives of those amongst us that have first-hand experience of such things, though...

So would I: it would save checking for scene breaks at the beginning or end of pages after an edit.



** - Which generally requires a parallel spreadsheet to record progress, responsibility for generating for answers, agreed compliance status (e.g. Fully Compliant or Compliant by mm/yyyy)....

 

[Anne Lyle]

The default in Scrivener is #, so that's what I use.

I have a lot of them...

 

[Menion]

I have been using
example...

Johnny fell over a tree giggled, wiggled and woddled home.

-------​

Philip ate a muffin and sang praise to the lord for this muffin was no ordinary muffin it was a triple choc muffin.

 

[Jake Reynolds]

I would praise the lord also for a triple choc muffin.

On topic, I have chapter name, date, then 1, 2, 3, etc for the sub chapters. If there is a point of view change within a sub chapter (a rare occurrence, but if I want to show two viewpoints of a short fight then sometimes its unavoidable), then I just leave a space. For example:

The Ringing of the Bells

Havegard, 7th Day of Verassai, 1836

1

Yadda yadda.

Then it resets to 1 at the next chapter. I originally had the place and date at the start of every sub-chapter, but that was when I had four main characters and my books moved too fast. Now I take my time, and each chapter stays in the one place, or at least covers the journey to the next. I don't jump from city to city anymore. The reason I keep the date at all is because I have two trilogies that run in tandem, and I want people to be able to match the two of them. If not for this it would likely be an unnecessary vanity.

 

[Menion]

If it's part of the same chapter but a different pov, and you want people to notice the change straight away try roman numerals
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IXX

 

[Ursa major]

I hadn't realised numbering scenes within chapters was so popular.

Strange as it may seem rolleyes, the only complete manuscripts (i.e. not published works) I've ever seen are my own.

 

[J Riff]

I've been doing this, which I read in sub guidleines somewhere.

*

That's it... one(1) little centred arsterisk. Can't seem to centre it in here tho. *

 

[Anne Lyle]

I've been doing this, which I read in sub guidleines somewhere.

*

That's it... one(1) little centred arsterisk. Can't seem to centre it in here tho. *

Like this?

*

You need to use the extended toolbar (i.e. not the one above 'Quick Reply'). You can't do it with spaces because HTML collapses multiple space characters into one (unless you use the PRE tag). The toolbar wraps your asterisk with a CENTER tag.
​

 

[J Riff]

Okee doke.

*
Good, good...
*


​

 

[Jennifer Kirk]

I've always used ***** spaced out using the tab key and centred. I've seen similar used in several other published books. The only variance was the number of '*'s used.