If we're completely honest with ourselves (CAUTION! Spoilers!)

Did the Red Wedding actually make any sense? Logistically, politically, in context.

  • Yes. It made total sense (or) It doesn't have to make sense .. He totally got me!

    Votes: 11 73.3%
  • No. GRRM wrote it, but unlike Neds execution it had no basis in the known reality of the story.

    Votes: 4 26.7%

  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

Foible

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Did the red wedding really make any sense?

1. Why would Walder even want to do such a thing? I mean it ain't like he's a stones throw from Kings Landing. Even if he was, even a disgusting tyrant like Tywin was like "Daaaang man!? Walder .. ooOO .. ooo that's just gross. Man I said do something not all that .. gah .. Frey done lost his mind." He is surrounded on all sides by northern banners and he just basically killed all the most respected people in the north. For such a self preserving guy, he gained almost nothing and stands to lose a lot.

2. Why would the other Freys do such suicidal thing? We have a thing in the North called the laws of hospitality- You can't kill people in your house. At what point do the Freys depose their admittedly insane patriarch?
"huh ... huh .. let's kill the lords of all the lands around us at this wedding then sew a head on the king and chuck him and his mom off the wall!"

"erm .. Great Great Grandpa .. here's some more milk of the poppy."

3. How is it even possible that some crap force inside the Frey's Keep could completely destroy the battle hardend force of the King in the North?
 
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this post needs a spoiler alert in the title, and Foible, you might want to look for one of the many threads where this particular topic is discussed.

The very short answer is, yes, TRW makes perfect sense, and is quite predictable on a second read.
 
this post needs a spoiler alert in the title, and Foible, you might want to look for one of the many threads where this particular topic is discussed.

The very short answer is, yes, TRW makes perfect sense, and is quite predictable on a second read.


Thanks Imp for putting everything i was thinking into words....
 
Did the red wedding really make any sense?
Yes.

1. Why would Walder even want to do such a thing? I mean it ain't like he's a stones throw from Kings Landing. Even if he was, even a disgusting tyrant like Tywin was like "Daaaang man!? Walder .. ooOO .. ooo that's just gross. Man I said do something not all that .. gah .. Frey done lost his mind." He is surrounded on all sides by northern banners and he just basically killed all the most respected people in the north. For such a self preserving guy, he gained almost nothing and stands to lose a lot.

2. Why would the other Freys do such suicidal thing? We have a thing in the North called the laws of hospitality- You can't kill people in your house.
I suggest you take a look at entry for House Tully in the Appendix at the back of AGOT**. It describes how the Tullys came to gain dominion over the lands of the Trident, i.e. by Edmyn being one of the first to desert King Harwyn and take Aegon's side. Then look towards the end of the entry, where it lists Frey as a house sworn to Riverrun, not Winterfell. (I don't know - but I'm sure someone will soon tell me - the extent of the North as regards the laws of hospitality, but given you've given the word a capital N, I'm assuming you meant the Stark's possessions.)


** - The appropriate text is longer than in my copy of ASOS***.

*** - Actually, I have the UK paperbacks, so I mean "ASOS: A Storm of Swords".
 
this post needs a spoiler alert in the title,


Agreed - done.

Foible, please don't forget that this is a general SFF forum, and newcomers, especially, may not have read the books that you have.
If you start a thread that might give away plot-points to the casual reader, please add a caution and a spoiler warning in the title. Thanks!
 
Agreed - done.

Foible, please don't forget that this is a general SFF forum, and newcomers, especially, may not have read the books that you have.
If you start a thread that might give away plot-points to the casual reader, please add a caution and a spoiler warning in the title. Thanks!
Thanks for doing that so quickly.
 
All I remember from eighth grade Latin is sumus, es, est, sumus, estes, sunt... and I'm pretty sure even that's wrong.
 
All I remember from eighth grade Latin is sumus, es, est, sumus, estes, sunt... and I'm pretty sure even that's wrong.
But the great and all knowing Google knows everything. Just don't pay any attention to that admin behind that curtain.
 
It's been awhile since I've read the books (yes, time for a re-read) but I never had a problem with the Red Wedding. I know a lot of it had to do with Walder's pride. Robb screwed him over and wounded his pride so he got his revenge. He took back the respect he felt he had lost. I know there's more to it but that reason alone makes the entire scene make perfect sense.
 
It's been awhile since I've read the books (yes, time for a re-read) but I never had a problem with the Red Wedding. I know a lot of it had to do with Walder's pride. Robb screwed him over and wounded his pride so he got his revenge. He took back the respect he felt he had lost. I know there's more to it but that reason alone makes the entire scene make perfect sense.
It was more than just pride though. When Cat negotiated with The Late Walder to have Robb's army cross The Twins, she agreed to betroth him to one of the Frey's, to be decided on by Robb at a later date. Robb broke that agreement by marrying Jayne Westerling. This wasn't just not showing up for a dinner invitation, betrothals are a really big deal in Westeros. While Walder is a miserable old ******* that I wish a very slow and very painful death on, I completely side with him on this issue. He had every right to be out of his mind "go out and buy an Uzi and shoot up a Post Office" crazy. Even a "normal" person would have a right to be really upset, and Walder is the kind of person that gets offended when a cloud passes in front of the sun, or a child sneezes in a room down at the other end of the corridor from his audience chamber.

None of this is a justification for TRW, but rather, a way of understanding it.
 
It was more than just pride though. When Cat negotiated with The Late Walder to have Robb's army cross The Twins, she agreed to betroth him to one of the Frey's, to be decided on by Robb at a later date. Robb broke that agreement by marrying Jayne Westerling. This wasn't just not showing up for a dinner invitation, betrothals are a really big deal in Westeros. While Walder is a miserable old ******* that I wish a very slow and very painful death on, I completely side with him on this issue. He had every right to be out of his mind "go out and buy an Uzi and shoot up a Post Office" crazy. Even a "normal" person would have a right to be really upset, and Walder is the kind of person that gets offended when a cloud passes in front of the sun, or a child sneezes in a room down at the other end of the corridor from his audience chamber.

None of this is a justification for TRW, but rather, a way of understanding it.

That's what I was trying to say. Robb betrayed Walder and Walder isn't the kind of guy to accept that. I honestly don't think he was thinking about any future consequences that might occur because he broke the hospitality rule. He just wanted to get his revenge. The OP's first point doesn't really hold a lot of water because it's not something Walder was really thinking about. And his second point isn't good because his entire family is scared to death of him. And if I remember correctly Walder's offspring didn't really possess a lot of backbone anyway.
 
Thanks, Woody.

Foible, I respectfully disagree. I believe the Red Wedding made perfect sense

1. Why would Walder even want to do such a thing?
The eight thousand plus year history of Westeros is one of small kindoms and regional rivalries. The land has only known unity in the three hundred years of Targaryen rule... and as we can see, as soon as the dragons are gone the ancient fueds and demands of honor quickly surface.

Walder's honor was destroyed by Robb. Walder had just maneuvered to place his family from one of the bannermen of the Riverlands to the power behind the King in the North. The Freys worry about their honor because they are in short supply of it... and Robb had just humiliated them.

The Freys control the Twins and are very wealthy as a result... not Lannister or Tyrell wealthy, but they probably have more assets than either the Tullys or Starks. Couple this with a triple alliance between the Lannisters and the Boltons (remember Walder's son, Emmon was given Riverrun, and remember that Roose was at the Twins and actually delivered Robb's death blow) and Walder could feel confident that the new Westerlands, the Reach, the Vale, Riverlands, Northlands, and King's Landing alliance could easily withstand any challenge from Stannis, Dorne or the Iron Islands.

The North and the Riverlands had outmaneuvered and outfought the Lannisters in the field, but were in turn outmaneuvered by the Greyjoys. Nor could the Starks replace their money, material, and men as quickly and as easily as the Lannisters and their allies. Even Robb lamented how he was losing the war even though he won all the battles.

In Walder's mind, he just put himself on the rich, powerful, established, and winning side.

2. Why would the other Freys do such suicidal thing?

Lord Walder had held power for so long and had such tight control over all Frey finances that for them to step out of line meant risking exile. As Walder himself often mentioned, he had more sons and grandsons and nephews to take the place of any who fell or were disgraced.

Also, Walder played them all against each other. Any hints of scheming against Walder's authority would have been instantly reported to him. All those weasels were jealous of each other.

And one thing continually confounded Catelyn at the Twins... the absence of the Freys who had been close to Robb. Walder had sent any Freys with a conscience far away so they would not be tempted to disclose his plotting to Robb.

3. How is it even possible that some crap force inside the Frey's Keep could completely destroy the battle hardend force of the King in the North?
First, I'd say that even if many of Walder's sons and grandsons were physically unimposing, it appears that Black Walder and Walder Rivers were very militarily competent commanders. They planned the massacre in detail. They had an equal number of men at the Twins to Robb's force... and their force was probably instructed to drink less than the Northmen. Plus, the Frey's held their battle hardened forces that had fought with Robb outside the Twins. They brought these fresh, sober, and veteran troops in at the moment of the betrayal. These forces in battle order would have made short work of any drunken, disorganized, unarmored, unarmed troops, battle hardened or not.

History is replete with examples of treachery and massacres.

Dinah, a daughter of Jacob (Abraham's grandson), was raped by a Shechem, a Canaanite prince. Dinah's brothers told Shechem he could marry Dinah if he and all his people became circumcised like thJacob's people were. The morning after the mass cicumcision while Shechem's men were all lying abed in pain, Dinah's brothers attacked and slew them all.

Around the year 1000 BC, Absalom (son of King David of Israel), murdered his eldest half-brother Amnon at a feast Absalom threw for all his brothers. Absalom's excuse for murdering the heir apparent was that Amnon had raped Absalom's sister, Tamar. Absalom fled into exile and was pardoned years later. After his return Absalom effected a coup d'etat against David, but defeated later in battle.

On Palm Sunday 991, the Bishop of Laon (a vassal of Duke Charles of Lorraine) invited Charles to dinner. Charles asked for an oath of fealty over holy communion and the Bishop gave it. Later that night, the Bishop arrested Charles and handed him over to Hugh Capet (who overthrew Charles' older brother to become the first King of France). Charles died in Hugh's prison.

In 1064, Harold Godwinson, the most powerful lord in England and heir apparent to King Edward the Confessor, shipwrecked on the French coast and was captured by the Count of Ponthieu. William of Normandy rescued Harold and brought him to Normandy as a guest. Once there, William knighted Harold and gave him gifts. But he refused to let Harold go home until Harold promised to forsake his claim to the English throne in favor of William. Two years later when Edward died and Harold claimed the throne, William invaded... to his lasting glory.

Lalli, the Finnish hero, caught and killed Swedish Bishop Henry in 1156. Henry's crime? He did not pay for Lalli's hospitality at supper.

Richard I of England was captured and held hostage by Leopold, Duke of Austria during Richard's return from crusading.

In 1385, Bernabo Visconti, Lord of Milan, was captured by his nephew Gian Galeazzo Visconti at a welcoming reception upon Gian's arrival in Milan. Bernabo was deposed and killed.

The infamous Pope, Alexander VI, would invite rich men to dinner and then accuse, imprison, confiscate all their wealth, and then murder them.

In 1757 during the French and Indian War, French commander, Montcalm, accepted the surrender of the British garrison of Fort William Henry. He let the British leave peacefully, but his Algonquin allies attacked and massacred the British retreat. You may remember this in the 1990's film The Last of the Mohicans.

Revenge, honor, and power are all motivations for betrayal and murder.
 
Not to mention the Black Wedding, the real-world inspiration for the Red. A Scottish chief had made peace with his former rivals and invited them all to a slap-up banquet to celebrate that they were all friends now. Halfway through, the musicians struck up a funeral dirge and soldiers burst in and killed all of the chief's enemies.
 
Thanks, Woody.

You're welcome.

The correct conjugation for the present indicative active of the verb "to be" is:

Singular: sum, es, est
Plural: sumus, estis, sunt

The words listed in each line being the first, second, and third person conjugations respectively.
 
Latin, that most vibrant of languages. So much so that the legal profession has all but abandoned it. Still you have these winners:

res ipsa loquitur

delegatus non poteste delgare

mens rea

actus reus

habeus corpus.

Among a few others...
 
In the age that he lives he is ancient, and grumpy and bored lol, he's also disappointed in his family, Robb spurned his honour and turned down an alliance but who knows if Walder wasn't nobbled by the Lannisters before this, maybe he was a sleeper to Tywin all along and knew Robb would renege as Tywin had planned to make it so?

So what if war is raged on his family in retalliation, he isn't going to live long enough to see it and maybe he thinks it will be a test to his sons, the one who holds the twins steps up and deserves the title, if they can't then they were weak and not worthy?

When I read it, it seemed to me like a proud old man who used to be a power, used to being respected, but knows he is now regarded as a bit of a joke, even amongst his family and who couldn't deal with getting old so is sticking 2 fingers up to the people that betrayed him, who knows if Robb had married his (niece/granddaughter?) that he wouldn't have still bumped him off in service to Tywin regardless
 

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