Wise Man's Fear (Contains Spoilers)

[inkcoder]

So... We understand that Meluan is (racist?) towards the edema ruh, because her sister ran off with one of them. When Kvothe is listening in on the conversation between Ben, and Kvothes mom+dad, his mom says, "He gets them from his father, graceful and gentle. Perfect for seducing young nobles' daughters." and later says, "Come to think of it, there was a night, about a dozen years ago, a man came to me. He bound me with kisses and cords of chorded song. He robbed me of my virtue and stole me away." Both indicating that she could me the a Lackless.

But naturally that isn't enough to solidly convince, so here it is:

PROOF:
Dark Laurian, Arliden’s wife,
Has a face like a blade of a knife
Has a voice like a prickledown burr
But can tally a sum like a moneylender.
My sweet Tally cannot cook.
But she keeps a tidy ledger-book
For all her faults I do confess
It’s worth my life
To make my wife
Not tally a lot less...

This is the song that Kvothe's father made for his mother, and his mom used to make him sleep under the wagon when he sang it (owned). Disguised in its humor are some large connotations, it sounds as if Tally is short for Netalia (but it makes it sound like Tally = good at math). Now read the whole thing outloud... Netalia Lockless = "Not tally a lot less". Yes I know, pretty sweet. Kvothe said that his mom made him sleep under the wagon because it had bad meter, you sure it's not because it removes your mask?

I could go into countless theories, but I don't have enough time to type... But I'll quickly spell out one of my more crackpot ones: (i'm gonna have to do this fast, so sorry if it's a bit wordy)

First off, read the poem from TNTW that is later retold differently in TWMF about lackless. First off, I think that the one in TNTW is the humours snitch version of the one in book 2, but may have some important information. The working title for book 3 is Doors of Stone, so we know they are going to be important. We've been hearing a lot about this great stone door in the archives, which makes me bring together a **** load of crack pot theories that may not even be plausible... So, in that poem from TNTW there is what is written about her husband's candle. In the second poem, the candle is said to be without light. Keep that in the back of your mind. Adem = Ademre (land of the Adem), Amyr = Amyrre = Imre? (Land of the Amyr) = UNIVERSITY (holy *****). Like the name Amyrre was lost in time and because IMRE. OK NOW... MAYBE.. MAYBE.. Kvothe was kept alive by the chandrain because he is a decedent of the AMYR who they fear and kvothe is important because he is the son in the poem, who will open the door. The amyr were inhabiting where the university is was the lockless mansion WAYYY BACK. But were moved to where it is now? Ok that's a stretch but stay with me, The door was kept there. First off think about the archives, IT'S HUGE, and has places no has been for thousands of years. They amyr are from thousands of years ago, possible the only place left of the amyr (who are the modern day lockless) is the archives. Hence the CANDLE!!! Kvothe got pissed on for brining a candle to the archives, the candle needs to stay unlit in the goddamn archives. Kvoteh was told by the Ctathe that he has been closer to the Amyr than he thinks, maybe because he is a long lost descendant, or i don't know? We were also told that lockless is a name that was used wayyy back, and has undergone a lot of changes. LOCKLESS ANCESTORS = AMYR. KVOTHE has amyr blood. IT would also explain why there are no traces of the amyr in any of the archives, the archives were theirs.... therfore they could have easily wiped everything out so long ago. Please someone help me expand on this who can actually read it. I obviously need to develop it a bit more.

 

[feak]

Good points from many of you! Here's my take on some random things:

Denna's patron is of the Fae
After Kvothe makes the gram for the Maer, he meets up with Denna in town. She is to see her master in the middle of the night somewhere, and spends some time with Kvothe in the Maers gardens.

On their way to the garden Kvothe is talking about going for a "moonlit stroll" in the garden and Denna quickly corrects him:
"There's no moon tonight", she pointed out. "Or if there is, it's barely a slender sliver.".

Combining this with Felurians warning of the passing between normal land and fae, and the final warning "a wise man views a moonless night with fear", is enough for me to not only suspect but almost assume Denna's patron (and possibly herself as well) as being more than a little shady.

Kvothe's mother is the runaway Lackless sister
The song that already has been mentioned portraits her as a rich woman. She was more mad with Kvothe than what was called for when we has singing the song about the Lackless woman in tNotW. Kvothe immediately recognizes her, but can't place her; she looks like her mother but he has suppressed those memories as good as he can.

Vague points hinting at it:
The song mentions "One a son who brings the blood", indicating that the blood of the family must be there. Since Kvothe is obviously going to open the "doors" he must be of the family.

The doors of stone
First, notice the plural form.

My big theory here is that the "doors" mentioned are the doors Kvothe talks about when he's grieving after his parents are killed.

There are four doors (I don't remember them exactly):

1. sleep
2. death
3. madness
4. forgetting?

What is said about Haliax in different places all out the book? Well, he:

1. Has never slept for the last 5000 years! (don't remember where it says this, but pretty safe to assume to be true)
2. Cannot be killed! (stated in the old stories about Lanre)
3. He is "sane". (Stated by Shehyn when she speaks of the Chandrian. "Hated. Hopeless. Sleepless. Sane."
4. ??

I think Lanre/Haliax is kept from the doors of the mind, or whatever they were called, explicitly by someone as a punishment or similar. If this is anyhow related to the physical doors in the Lackless family or the Archives, I don't know.

As you notice I haven't put the pieces together completely, but I think that there's great significance for the story in this, I just don't know how yet.

Some wild guessing
The guy who stole the moon was named Jax right? Ambrose is named Jaxis. Might be some kind of connection?

And no, I don't believe for a second that the King is Ambrose. More likely, the king is somehow related to the kings of the cities of the old stories or something, but who knows.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Denna's patron is of the Fae

That's a good catch, but it doesn't really preclude her patron being one of the Chandrian as well does it? I felt like Rothfuss was hinting that the seven were, in fact, Fae, but I can't really put my finger on why. Or why it would be important.

 

[oliewankanobe]

Of all the characters in the books Auri fascinates me the most, and until this thread, I had yet to see anyone mention her.

(Understand... I am dorking about all over the internet obsessing on all things Rothfuss.)

 

[lallymonk]

Two things I took away after reading "The Wise Man's Fear" (and before discovering this forum):

1) Meluan is most certainly Kvothe's aunt. Other observant readers have already pointed out here the many hints/signs we're given that this is the case.

2) Bredon is most certainly Denna's patron. My reasoning:

During Kvothe's first meeting with Bredon, Bredon tells him, "I have simpler tastes now. I travel. I enjoy wines and conversation with interesting people. I've even been learning how to dance." (page 388 in my book).

On page 391, referring to Bredon: "His eyes danced a bit."

On page 446, Bredon tells Kvothe, "No one wins a dance, boy. The point of dancing is the motion that a body makes."

Finally, on page 434, when Kvothe asks Denna to tell him something, anything about her patron, she says, "He's a surprisingly good dancer. I think I can say that without betraying anything."

(When in fact, she just betrayed all)

Bredon also tells Kvothe on numerous occasions that he doesn't have time for another game of tak as he has "an unavoidable appointment" or a "prior engagement" that he needs to get too. Whenever he makes a statement such as this, we're usually treated to a scene a few pages later where Kvothe runs into Denna and she is sporting a new bruise or injury. One could infer from this that Bredon's "appointments" are, in fact, with Denna, and that she comes away the worse for wear after each.

There are just too many signs pointing to Bredon as Denna's patron to ignore. What he wants with Denna, or with Kvothe, I do not know. As to whether he is one of the Chandrian, or working for them -- again, I do not know. Bredon is playingsome sort of "beautiful" game, but it remains to be seen what that game is. As he tells Kvothe on page 389, "Oh yes, I think I'm going to have quite a bit of fun playing with you."

One last observation - the sadness and despair of Kote in the present day contrasted with the bold fearlessness of the Kvothe of old is almost more than I can bear. And Rothfuss is such an excellent writer that my heart just breaks for Kvothe. How did he get to this point? Why did he give up all hope? As other readers have stated, he must have been deeply, deeply betrayed by someone he cared about, and the only one that could crush his spirit to this extent is Denna.

I cannot wait for the third book. Also, is it strange that I have an immense crush on a fictional character?

 

[Caledor]

Something I just had a random thought about. Somewhere it says something about Kvothe having to kill an angel for his love? Can we assume that it would be Denna he would be fighting the angel for? And if so, what would make an angel want to take her in the first place? Is it because she's (unknowingly?) working for the Chandrian?

@lallymonk: thanks for backing me up about Bredon. plus dont forget about Bredon and her mentor both having a cane as has been mentioned.

 

[feak]

That's a good catch, but it doesn't really preclude her patron being one of the Chandrian as well does it? I felt like Rothfuss was hinting that the seven were, in fact, Fae, but I can't really put my finger on why. Or why it would be important.

Thanks! I do not believe her patron of being Chandrian. If the Chandrian is really the kings of the old cities, as told in numerous stories throughout the book, then they were not living in Fae. Felurian at least confirms Murella of not being located in the Fae realms, and that was one of the cities of the kings.

So, I believe that:

• Denna's patron is of the Fae but no Chandrian.
• Bredon may, or may not, be both Denna's patron, but might independently of that be of the Fae as well (no strong "evidence" of this though)

I also believe the following, although I haven't got much clear pieces of fact confirming it:

• Lanre/Haliax is merely the tool used by the "enemy of the Empire" to bring it down, the Empire being the 7 + 1 cities.
• The real one behind the attack on the empire is hidden behind stone doors.
• The king (only got one king in all countries, a bit strange right?) is the king of the 1 city that didn't fall.
• Kvothe has sworn on his name several times and will have his powers taken from him because of this.
• The door metaphor is on several levels. There's the doors described in my previous posts that Haliax is suffering. There's the Lockless door holding the old "evil" shaper. There are all the doors into Fae etc. Probably, the door to the old shaper is the one that will open and let out "the flood", a flood of monsters or something.

The real kicker is that I can't figure out which side is which for sure. All we know is that there was an empire and an enemy, and that the enemy was sealed behind the door of stone. The real reason, or info on which was the "evil" (if Rothfuss really lets anything be pure evil) is a bit uncertain.

Why is the king called the Penitent King? It makes sense that Kvothe actually kills the real king, him being related to the 1 cities king from the old stories, which turned Amyr (by my vague assumptions). So, the king is of the Amyr, the Amyr might or might not be the righteous part.

Adem = Ademre and Amyr = Amyrre = Imre is a good idea. I've thought about that as well, and it makes sense since the University is kept there and holds the University (a place where you control what people learn and have a big building with a big stone door)

 

[Perpetual Man]

Something that I just thought about (and it is a stab in the dark) is to do with Kote.

It's easy to assume that he is hiding from something he has done, or from an enemy.

But what if it is something else entirely. What if the Chandrian have left him alive in the past because they know what he will become... and Kvothe believes he will become something terrible if he continues down that path and by opting for a simple life and denying his powers is a way of avoiding that...

As I say a wild idea, but worth mentioning.

 

[Boneman]

Some great ideas going on here, but I'm sure Denna's patron is a bad guy- Chandrian or Chandrian related, and I'm being convinced by some of the arguments here, that it's most likely to be Bredon. Whatif Bredon wil actually manipulate Kvothe into opening the door, somehow? Maybe he'll do it for Denna, that's why she betrays him...

PM:The thing with Kote, is that he's waiting to die... the patient cut-flower sound of a man waiting to die. We know he blames himself for the war, the scrael etc because he says exactly that to Bast.

I'm assuming he messed things up by opening the door, thinking it would solve how he could kill the chandrian (or...ooh...ooh... he opens the door to get his heart's desire, where he kills the Angel - doesn't have to be a 'good' angel either, does it? And inadvertently lets loose the bad things). Pandora's box: the last thing left inside was hope. I'm assuming (and hoping) that he will fix things in book 3, or 4.

BUT: in NOTW, he says this: Underneath the University I found what I had wanted most, yet it was not what I expected. As is often the case when you gain your heart's desire. So the door could be to another realm... where he tricks the demon and fights the angel.

Here's a couple more thoughts: remember in NOTW, when the possessed soldier comes into the inn, and speaks in a language that nobody understands? I always thought that actually Kvothe did understand it, but haven't studied what was said to see - could be that's why Pat skimmed the bit about learning Tema...?

And at the beginning of WMF, Kote says to Bast about it: You stopped that creature from the Mael. They'd discussed this before at the end of NOTW, and Bast says: The Mael don't even share a border with us, It's as far away as anywhere can be in the Fae. But he's saying that it is in the fae, isn't he? So someone in the fae realms want Kvothe dead as well... why?

I'm sure Pat won't mind me reporting this, but some of you know I bid and won Pat's critique of my novel over a year ago, and here's what he said about the character of Kvothe: (I was trying to write it as he spoke, so I may have missed bits...)

"I fell in love with Cyrano de Bergerac right before writing NOTW. I thought 'why hasn't there been a character in a fantasy novel that I've loved as much as I loved Cyrano?' And so I wanted to show someone who is so cool, articulate, dashing brave and proud, but underneath it, he doesn't like himself very much, it breaks your heart. I wanted that in my character. I didn't understand why Cyrano works. It took me years to figure it out - the reason is that you get Cyrano being outrageous, arrogant, proud but he's as good as he thinks he is (My emphasis). He does amazing things, grand gestures, and everybody leaves going 'wow'. And then Cyrano just sags, when all of them go, you learn he has self-esteem problems, but you love him, you empathise with him."

And of course Cyrano - a soulful poet/philosopher and expert duellist,* (sound afmiliar?) loved Roxanne from afar and couldn't declare his feelings for her... (sound familiar?).

One last thing: I mentioned a Princess before, that he rescued from Barrow-kings. In WMF, when he's trying to convince Aaaron, the smith's apprentice not to join up, Kvothe says: I can tell you stories no one has ever heard before. Srories no one will ever hear again. Stories about Felurian, how I learned to fight from the Adem*.The truth about Princess Ariel.

There's so much more to come - why do we have to wait...?

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Aight, so here's my crackpot theory for the week. I don't think I buy it myself, but I thought I'd throw it out 'cause... what the hell?

A few folks have speculated as to whether Denna is some kind of Chandrian plant sent into the world to keep tabs on Kvothe and while I think I do subscribe to the "Bredon Is Her Patron And He's Really Cinder" (BIHPAHRC? that doesn't really flow as trippingly off the tongue as R+L=J huh?) theory, I think she's blameless in all this.

In fact, I think she might be on of the original Amyr trying to trap him somehow.

There's not much to go on really, but when Kvothe ducks in the tavern to catch the tail end of Skarpi's story, Selitos forming the Amyr:

Selitos went to Alephand knelt before him. 'I must refuse, for I cannot forget. But I will oppose him with these faithful Ruach beside me. I see their hearts are pure. We will be call Amyr on memory of the ruined city. We will confront Lanre and any who follow him. Nothing will prevent us from attaining the greater good.'
...
Others came forward. Tall Kirel, who had been burned but left living in the ash of Myr Tarinel. Deah, who had lost two husbands to the fighting and who's face and mouth and heart were are hard as stone...

It just seems like 'Deah' isn't much of a jump from Deah and she always keeps them D, even as the rest of her name changes. Her heart certainly seems as hard as stone.

Later on Deoc tells Kvothe that she's always seemed older than her years to him. 'Cause she's secretly thousands of years old. Obviously.

 

[G-Zeus]

Aight, so here's my crackpot theory for the week. I don't think I buy it myself, but I thought I'd throw it out 'cause... what the hell?

A few folks have speculated as to whether Denna is some kind of Chandrian plant sent into the world to keep tabs on Kvothe and while I think I do subscribe to the "Bredon Is Her Patron And He's Really Cinder" (BIHPAHRC? that doesn't really flow as trippingly off the tongue as R+L=J huh?) theory, I think she's blameless in all this.

In fact, I think she might be on of the original Amyr trying to trap him somehow.

There's not much to go on really, but when Kvothe ducks in the tavern to catch the tail end of Skarpi's story, Selitos forming the Amyr:



It just seems like 'Deah' isn't much of a jump from Deah and she always keeps them D, even as the rest of her name changes. Her heart certainly seems as hard as stone.

Later on Deoc tells Kvothe that she's always seemed older than her years to him. 'Cause she's secretly thousands of years old. Obviously.

Great man, I didn't see that one coming and it's really clever of you. Nevertheless, I wonder if Dena could really be one of Thelu's angel, Skarpi says no one can see them but the most powareful and at a great peril, and if she was an angel, she would know about Temic, and about magic of all sort, she won't learn it from Bredon. My guess is that Bredon is a chandrian, she will die for one reason or another and he will trick Kvothe to open the Doors of stone, making him believe that by doing so he will bring her back to life. Many people think that she is not dead, and that she lyed to him or something like that, but what we don't realize is that the same way JK Rowling set a mirror between Lord Voldemort and Harry Potter as if they were the 2 faces of the same coin, in the same way P. Rothfuss put Lanre and Kvothe face to face, they have almost the same history, Kvothe said in TNOTW "I trouped, I loved, I lost, I trusted end was betrayed", except the trouping part it's almost the same thing Haliax/Lanre told Selitos after Myr Tariniel's burning and Ben told Kvothe be worry of folly (That's the name of is sword by the way as if he did what Ben told you not to) and he try to explain to him what he meant by folly by talking to him about Lanre. So they went through the same thing, but the difference will be the way Kvothe reactes to it.
Beside, I don't think the chandrians were kings of the burnt city, I think they were people payed to guard them like lanre, sort of mercenaries, the city that didn't burn was probably Modeg, since the Modegan Kings are part of the older kings dynasty in the world.
I still have many ideas, but it will be for a next post.

 

[Boneman]

Had never thought before this thread about where the Amyr might be - I assumed they were in a far part of the kingdom, but in order to be able to counter the bad guys, they've got to be close at hand or use magical transport. After Kvothe's parents are killed Haliax says this: Who keeps you safe from the Amyr? The singers? The Sithe?

And then looks into the sky and Kvothe has 'a feeling of being watched' Now Haliax says "They come" and they all leg it magically. But no-one comes... or do they? Kvothe talks afterwards about the four doors,(sleep, forgetting, madness and death) which have been mentioned before, but is it possible that someone or something hypnotised him/wiped his mind? I know it's fantasy, but Pat always spends a great deal of time explaining most details of his world, so we can fully understand it - it's one of the beauties of his world-building, that he succeeds so magnificently - but let's look at the reality: Kvothe finds everyone horribly dead, scrabbles around for a bit, and then lies down in his caravan and sleeps. Really?? Then he sleeps even longer in the woods and forgets. Really???

So a threat to the Chandrian was definitely coming -enough to frighten them into leaving a witness behind (and we know they don't even like pots being discovered!). If someone/something did come, isn't it possible that they helped Kvothe, dulling his mind etc, making him forget, because, let's face it, it's stretching fantasy a bit far if Kvothe did it all on his own as he described it.

And here's another thing: we all think Lorren is an uptight pillock, but why is there never any more talk between him and Kvothe about his father, after the admissions? Lorren asks "Arliden the Bard?" so he knows of him... and kvothe loses it when he asks "I was wondering which troupe he performed in?" and that's it. And of course Lorren dissuades Kvothe from asking for books on the Amyr, saying: "A piece of advice," he said gently. "The Amyr are dramatic figures. When we are young we all pretend to be Amyr and fight battles with willow-switch swords. It is natural for a boy to be attracted to those stories." He met my eyes. "However, a man, an arcanist, must focus himself on the present day. He must attend to practical things." And goes on to convince Kvothe it's just childish notions, and crosses out Kvothe's requests for books on the very subjects. But if Lorren knew of Arliden, then he sure as heck knew who Arliden was married to, no?

Then Lorren bans Kvothe indefinitely from the archives, an incredibly harsh punishment, and it's always backed up by Lorren's fierce protection of his books. Kvothe tells him he'd just been whipped, had been drugged and Lorren completely ignores this. Is it that Lorren is protecting the possibility that Kvothe may actually discover something, and wishes to keep him out? We know the archives are hundreds of thousands of books, and Fela tells him later about the fact that they're not all indexed. So there could be a hidden gem, there, that Lorren doesn't want found.

And Lorren has gillers - Kvothe meets one, a Cealdish man, and Wil tells him: 'He works in acquisitions. They bring back books from all over the world. They're a different breed entirely.' The giller kvothe meets has a sword and and a dagger,(I'd never seen anyone armed at the University says Kvothe) and is fluent in three languages at least - seems very dramatic and dashing for a book-collector? In WMF there's quite a discussion between Kvothe and the Maer about the fact that you cannot find a single book with a reference to the Amyr. That's no coincidence...

I think there's more to Lorren than meets the eye... is it possible that more of the masters are either Amyr themselves, or their agents? It's certainly pointing at the University as a place of power for them, and that door....

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Yeah. I think there's a pretty good chance that Loren and, maybe, Elodin are associated with the Amyr.

 

[G-Zeus]

Had never thought before this thread about where the Amyr might be - I assumed they were in a far part of the kingdom, but in order to be able to counter the bad guys, they've got to be close at hand or use magical transport. After Kvothe's parents are killed Haliax says this: Who keeps you safe from the Amyr? The singers? The Sithe?

And then looks into the sky and Kvothe has 'a feeling of being watched' Now Haliax says "They come" and they all leg it magically. But no-one comes... or do they? Kvothe talks afterwards about the four doors,(sleep, forgetting, madness and death) which have been mentioned before, but is it possible that someone or something hypnotised him/wiped his mind? I know it's fantasy, but Pat always spends a great deal of time explaining most details of his world, so we can fully understand it - it's one of the beauties of his world-building, that he succeeds so magnificently - but let's look at the reality: Kvothe finds everyone horribly dead, scrabbles around for a bit, and then lies down in his caravan and sleeps. Really?? Then he sleeps even longer in the woods and forgets. Really???

So a threat to the Chandrian was definitely coming -enough to frighten them into leaving a witness behind (and we know they don't even like pots being discovered!). If someone/something did come, isn't it possible that they helped Kvothe, dulling his mind etc, making him forget, because, let's face it, it's stretching fantasy a bit far if Kvothe did it all on his own as he described it.

And here's another thing: we all think Lorren is an uptight pillock, but why is there never any more talk between him and Kvothe about his father, after the admissions? Lorren asks "Arliden the Bard?" so he knows of him... and kvothe loses it when he asks "I was wondering which troupe he performed in?" and that's it. And of course Lorren dissuades Kvothe from asking for books on the Amyr, saying: "A piece of advice," he said gently. "The Amyr are dramatic figures. When we are young we all pretend to be Amyr and fight battles with willow-switch swords. It is natural for a boy to be attracted to those stories." He met my eyes. "However, a man, an arcanist, must focus himself on the present day. He must attend to practical things." And goes on to convince Kvothe it's just childish notions, and crosses out Kvothe's requests for books on the very subjects. But if Lorren knew of Arliden, then he sure as heck knew who Arliden was married to, no?

Then Lorren bans Kvothe indefinitely from the archives, an incredibly harsh punishment, and it's always backed up by Lorren's fierce protection of his books. Kvothe tells him he'd just been whipped, had been drugged and Lorren completely ignores this. Is it that Lorren is protecting the possibility that Kvothe may actually discover something, and wishes to keep him out? We know the archives are hundreds of thousands of books, and Fela tells him later about the fact that they're not all indexed. So there could be a hidden gem, there, that Lorren doesn't want found.

And Lorren has gillers - Kvothe meets one, a Cealdish man, and Wil tells him: 'He works in acquisitions. They bring back books from all over the world. They're a different breed entirely.' The giller kvothe meets has a sword and and a dagger,(I'd never seen anyone armed at the University says Kvothe) and is fluent in three languages at least - seems very dramatic and dashing for a book-collector? In WMF there's quite a discussion between Kvothe and the Maer about the fact that you cannot find a single book with a reference to the Amyr. That's no coincidence...

I think there's more to Lorren than meets the eye... is it possible that more of the masters are either Amyr themselves, or their agents? It's certainly pointing at the University as a place of power for them, and that door....

I think you are right about Loren, I have been thinking the same thing. But about what happened when kvothe's parents died, I think it wasn't the Amyr who stoped them, but thelu's angels, remember what Skarpi said about them, "Nobody but the most powerful can see them, and only at a great peril". They didn't need to hypnotised him because he couldn't see them, even though he saw them. After that at least one of them has been following him, if you remember in TNOTW there's a time during mdwinter pegeantry when kvothe almost died because of the cold just after he got beatten up by the gard, he said that he was about to die and in is dellirium death took the shape of a uge bird of fire and shadow. That exactly Skarpy description of what Thelu's and his angels look like. Finally in TWMF when they are fighting the rebels, Cinder look at the sky and stay still as if he was listening, that's exactly what the chandrian did when haliaw said they are coming, after that the lightning destroyed the place and Kvothe said that he didn't think he made the lightning stike, so I believe it was Thelu's angels who were called because of kvothe friend who was praying and asking Thelu's to protect him from evil men, it probably work the same way for the chandrian, when you use their names they can locate you, i believe Thelu does the same thing when you use his name in prayer, he locates you, sees if it has to do with the chandrian and those who help them, and if it does, he fight them.
I have another theory about Denah, everybody think she is strange, her effect on men, the fact that she changes her name, she he's a person who can see things others can't, for example she noticed how kvothe eyes change colors according to his mood, and he says few ever notice it, secondly she has some namer ability, when she met simon and wil for the first time she described sim as a youg child playing in a pool and wil as a stone in the middle of a river and kvothe was quite surprised she could describe them so well. If you look at her more closely, you will see that she is a bit like haliax too, she can't sleep a full night because she says she has nightmare (door of sleep and door of forgetfulness) she said she stop breathing when she was a shild and since then she has trouble with her lungs and that's why she keep asking herself what she is doing here (the door of death) she seems to think she diserve whatever happens to her so maybe she did something bad in her past (door of forgetfulness). She is mos definitly Arcanum material and I wonder what is behind the façade.
Finally, there is a thing behind the Arcanum grading system, Elir means seer, Relar means speaker, what does Elthe means? I believe it means "shaper", in the history of the world the first thing that happen was that peaople started seeing things for what they were, after that they speak names, tha names of things and finally, they shaped things, according to Felurian the creation war was betwen the old namers and the shapers. Apparently kvothe got expelled from the university before he got is giller and became a full fleged sympathist (or maybe not he could have stayed as a gilder), so I assumed he will go as far as Elthe and start shaping things, he will probably shape the ever burning lamp Kilvin dreams about, and it could be the secret behind that old and so powerful artefacts Kilvin showed him. There are so many things we can speculate about, only 2 books so far but what a rich univers Patrick Rothfuss has created.

 

[thelostemperor]

No great insights here, but I just have to say I'm relieved that Rothfuss is not one of those 'cruel' writers. I was almost afraid to read this book, knowing that it was 2nd of a trilogy, and that Kvothe was in for a world of hurt - expulsion from the University, probable betrayal of/by Denna, some catastrophic mistake leading to war and his current pathetic condition. None of this occurred in this volume, and I can think of other fantasy writers that would have had all this happen at the end of the middle installment, leaving us readers in the depths of despondency knowing that it might be a few years before we find out how it all works out. I'm glad he left the worst low points for the 3rd book - I don't think I could have borne it otherwise. Not only that, but Rothfuss actually leaves us on a slightly hopeful note, in the scene at the end where Kote takes one perfect step of what is obviously the Ketan. There will be some horrible moments ahead, undoubtedly, but thankfully it appears these will occur and also be resolved in some fashion within the final volume. I don't know if I'm the only one, but I HATE those extremely dark, tragic cliffhangers. I don't mind a writer that goes dark, but leaving me hanging at the worst possible moment for the characters is just sadistic. So, thank you for not doing this, PR.

 

[SuzyBee]

Wow, amazing theories, there's so many things I'd never thought of.

The only things I can add (sorry if they've already been said):

"One a thing held tight in keeping" - this reminds me of a passage written about Kvothe holding desperately tight to his secrets about his parents/his search for the chandrian. I think it was book one. He says something about how he always swallowed the secret, over and over, and that this can become dangerous, it become a part of who he was or something like that.

"Then comes that which comes with sleeping" - as well as the whole dreaming thing, this could also refer the idea of the sleeping mind, which can understand names.

And "the broken tree", part of his Adem name - it was mentioned before that this could mean he somehow defeats the tree of the Cthaeh. But don't forgot the Cthaeh said that he is no more the tree than a man is a chair. So the broken tree might instead refer to the breaking of his cage - by breaking the tree, Kvothe releases the Cthaeh upon the world. This would make him responsible for the war, explain why everything is going horribly wrong in the present.

I love the idea that something's happened to make him need to change his name, and this is why he has lost all his power (he's always referring to being someone else, forgetting who he is, in the present) but I think that the idea that it's all an act is just wishful thinking. He seems too genuinely frustrated, too genuinely weak. He is, after all, just waiting to die. Kvothe can lie, but omniscient narrators can't.

Another thing that's not really been discussed is how does everyone think it's going to end in terms of the Chandrian? I'm sure there was something in one of the interludes which made me think that they're still alive, but I can't remember what it was. In some ways Kvothe not being able to defeat them in the end would be more likely (he's just a guy, after all, and they're all superpowerful) and more realistic. I like the idea that he doesn't defeat them, that they win. A tragedy. Kvothe has already admitted his story is a tragedy. The other thing to consider in this is that the Cthaeh states he doesn't like Cinder, so wouldn't he twist Kvothe's future to end in the Cinder's destruction? But wouldn't Cinder's destruction be a good thing? And if so, how could Cthaeh wish for it?

That's all I've got for now, if I remember anything else I'll drop another post.

 

[Boneman]

Another thing that's not really been discussed is how does everyone think it's going to end in terms of the Chandrian? I'm sure there was something in one of the interludes which made me think that they're still alive, but I can't remember what it was. In some ways Kvothe not being able to defeat them in the end would be more likely (he's just a guy, after all, and they're all superpowerful) and more realistic. I like the idea that he doesn't defeat them, that they win.

Well... in TNOTW, when Chronicler is trying to convince Kvothe to tell his story, he says this:

"Some are even saying there's a new chandrian. A fresh terror in the night. His hair as red as the blood he spills."

Which suggests that the 'old' chandrian has passed - or at least, knowledge of it has become common. And besides, the chandrian don't come in the night...

I think, as has been said before, Pat doesn't waste words - if it's in the book, it's there for a reason. But it occurs to me that he may twist it a little to intrigue us. For instance he's known as Kvothe the Arcane, but says he was expelled from the University at a younger age than most people enter it. Just because he was expelled, doesn't mean it wasn't done as a protection, it may be done with his agreement, to fool others into a trap. Especially since the boy in TNOTW, says:

"I saw the place in Imre where you killed him, By the fountain. The cobblestones are all shattered..... shattered. They say no one can mend them."

And I don't think that's Ambrose - he wouldn't stand a chance against Kvothe, but whatif the chandrian know they'd get their butts kicked in the University, and Kvothe and others know they know, so bait a trap with Kvothe in Imre....?

As has been said, he didn't burn down the town of Trebon (french for 'very good') and so it's entirely possible that his expulsion is referring to the calling the wind incident, which is then repealed, or there's more to it than meets the eye...

 

[SuzyBee]

"Some are even saying there's a new chandrian. A fresh terror in the night. His hair as red as the blood he spills."
QUOTE]

Ah yeah, I see what you mean, though originally I took that line to mean there's an additional chandrian (i.e. an 8th one), "new" doesn't neccessarily mean that the old ones are gone too, just an idea. You're probably right that they are gone though, considering how many times Kvothe has said their names during the story without fear of being tracked down.

What do you make of the red hair? Could Kvothe really have become a chandrian himself? Maybe the rumours just bend that way because he does some bad stuff (like kill a king) later on, or old rumours getting twisted.

Random idea: the Chandrian serve some essential purpose (keeping the doors closed?) despite being evil, and when Kvothe takes revenge for his parents (as the Cthaeh seems to want him to) he actually makes everything ten times worse.

 

[Boneman]

oooh, good point...

I really don't think Kvothe can become a new chandrian, the whole premise is that he's a decent guy, through and through. I fall back on the "I trouped, travelled, loved, lost, trusted and was betrayed"; whatever he did to cause the war and the scrael was definitely not done in anger... only a few years to wait while we find out, eh?

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

And I don't think that's Ambrose - he wouldn't stand a chance against Kvothe, but whatif the chandrian know they'd get their butts kicked in the University, and Kvothe and others know they know, so bait a trap with Kvothe in Imre....?

That ties in pretty tightly with Bredon's (*cough* Cinder *cough*) idea of playing a beautiful game. I don't have the book in front of me but Bredon says something about walking into a trap, knowing it's a trap, and having a plan to turn the trap around being the beautiful thing.

That was actually a big part of what convinced me that we're in for Bredon was Cinder he's going to die at kvothe's hands. I think Kvothe is going to set a trap in Imre, bredon is going to spring it with a plan to turn it, but our favorite red head will be ready for the turn and play the more beautiful game.

On a semi related note, do we actually have any information on where Bredon ranks in Vintish society. He was pretty cagey about it... Any chance we he's the titular killed king?