The broken sword

[alchemist]

Fantasy writers,
My character's sword has broken in two, due to the evil creature he's fighting having a tough hide. However, he has managed to pin the baddie to the ground, and he is about to drive part of the broken sword through it's gaping maw. Which half of the sword does he use, assuming they're of roughly equal length?

Option one: the hilt end. Advantage - he has a good grip. Disadvantage - the end may not be very pointy.

Option two: the tip end. Advantage - pointy end. Disadvantage - hard to get a grip of, as the edges are sharp, and the broken surface may be quite jagged.

The critical thing appears to be, how does a sword snap; a smooth clean break, or does it leave jagged surfaces? I've tried to look it up, but to no avail. Does anybody have any idea of this, or even better, any experience (swords snapping, not taking on malevolent demons)? If it's of any consequence, the sword would be your standard Fantasy straight-edged blade, not a scimitar, katana, or anything exotic.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Interference]

At the end of the Vikings (Kirk Douglas, Tony Curtis) .... actually, this may be a spoiler if you haven't seen it.

Use the grip bit and put a lot of wellie into it.

 

[alchemist]

It seems the safer option, but maybe a bit cliched. I think it happened in Rob Roy too (Neeson version).

 

[The Judge]

I'd go for option one.

Firstly, he's already holding it, and isn't having to scrabble round for something, which to me is a big advantage in the demon-slaying stakes. (Or are you thinking both bits were hurled aside and he has the option of picking up either end?) Secondly, trying to grip the broken pointy end with enough power to drive it home sounds dangerous to me -- we wouldn't want him to cut himself. Thirdly, I wouldn't have though you needed a point to inflict heavy damage when the blade is going inside the demon's mouth.

However, my experience of blades is limited to my avatar wielding her sword, so my opinion is probably of minimal help.

 

[Arkose]

I would think that the blade would break closer to the tip giving your hilt more blade length than the tip. I have never seen a sword broken (in enough detail to tell if its a smooth cut or rigid) but I would think that it would be like broken glass, were the broken area is still sharp enough to be thrust into something.

I would think though that if you want to show the strength of both individuals than a clean break would mean more than a jagged break. Unless you want to show the difference in strength until the man kills the beast.

I just remember that Mythbusters did a episode on samurai swords cutting through other swords. You might be able to find it online.

 

[Interference]

Perhaps the drama of the moment can divert people from thinking it cliched.

 

[Arkose]

Here you go judge. Mythbusters testing to see if a sword can really cut through another sword. You might be able to get some good ideas from this.

MythBusters: Slicing a Sword : Video : Discovery Channel

Looks like a sword might just break above the hilt.

 

[alchemist]

Thanks Arkose. Thanks to my work's firewall, I'll be chacking out the video from home later.

TJ: he does indeed lose both halves. Before having enough time to think "Bugger", he's disarmed and there's some, er, scuffling, before the hero regains the upper hand. I had thought that with the demon down and pinned, he could put enough power behind the tip end, assuming the broken surface is smooth, to do the job. But, yes, it's awkward.

Interference: the image of a hilt sticking out of a demon's mouth certainly has more going for it than the alternative.

It looks like option one. Thanks folks.

 

[Interference]

You're welcome and good luck

 

[Sleepless]

Defo option one. Grabbing the sharp end of a broken blade with enough force to thrust it into flesh would = you losing most of your fingers... especially if the hide was tough enough to break the sword in the first place!

 

[Sapheron]

A sword is more likely to snap off at the hilt than half way along the blade. That's just a question of chance though; it's entirely possible to snap half way down. So let's ignore that point.

Have you ever had someone jab you with a ball point pen or a blunt pencil? Most likely you have, and you'll probably remember it hurting. Both of these are blunt objects, but the force behind the small area means that they can draw blood with a little force. In comparison, said hero is likely using one hell of a lot of force behind his broken sword if he's in a fight to the death with a demon. As such, even if it should break into a blunt end (which again, is possible, though less likely than a sharp break), then the force behind the weapon would be plenty enough to drive it through something squishey like a living thing.

Anywho, the question of which to use (logically speaking); the hilt end will give you better grip, less injured fingers and you're less likely to mess it up, so it'd be the better choice. The blade side you could use, but it'd be harder to hold and you couldn't get the same force behind it as a result (though not far off). Unless the sword is ridiculously sharp, it would be very difficult to actually cut yourself by holding it though. My katana is sharp enough to use, but I could hold it quite tightly by the blade without it cutting so long as it didn't slide.

Swords, you see, break things in one of two ways. Some of them slice, by dragging a narrow edge along things. Others crush their way through using momentum and a small surface area. So during the swing, the blade has no relative momentum against the hand, and shouldn't be sliding as long as you grip it tightly enough, and should do no damage behind digging in a little.

The problem there is when you actually make contact. If this demon's skin is so very tough and you ram the blade part into its mouth, the blade can only go so far before it hits bone and/or the inside of the creature's skin. At that point, chances are it's going to stop or slow down very suddenly (assuming it doesn't break again). At that point, there's a high chance of your hand sliding down the blade and, as a result, being sliced open right down all those nice and difficult to heal tendons that cover the insides of your palm and fingers. Bad news for any fantasy hero.

So, practically speaking, the hilt end is by far the best option. In terms of 'awesome factor', I've got to say the idea of the hero grabbing the broken blade and ramming it down the demon's throat sounds quite dramatic. If he cuts his hand in the process... that might even make it more so.

 

[chrispenycate]

How the sword breaks would depend a lot on the metal, and the forging. An older "bog iron" blade, containing a lot of carbon from the smelting (no convenient way of burning it off at the time) and maybe triple forged, would have quite large crystals in it, and would shatter into a jagged end. A late steel blade would never break from impact; the only convenient way for it to go would be by metal fatigue, multiple bending back and forth. This would be a multiply folded, multi steel weapon, with just the cutting edge(s) in hard, brittle steel, while the body of the sword was in low carbon, relatively soft metal. Tougher, but incapable of holding such a good edge.

Between the two are many, many generations of Smiths' art; improved bellows, iron ores imported from different regions for different purposes, different tempering, charcoal, case hardening, and ceremonial swords, bejewelled and gold embossed that neither got very sharp nor were particularly resistant. Some of those might have snapped straight across, with a dull grey surface of small crystals. There is also the question of how far along the blade was sharpened; it didn't always extend to the quillions, certainly not along the rear edge. A stabbing sword, like a Roman legionnaire's, only needed the first third really sharp. Thickening the blade towards the hilt made it stronger (so as not to shatter on demons) and the balance closer to the hand made it more manoeuvrable (but not as massive an impact, with a slashing sword).

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

If he's been bashing at this creature with the tough hide for a while, the edges of his blade might have dulled to the extent that he could grip the blade without slicing open his hands. It would hurt, of course, and leave marks, but what is that beside being killed by a malevolent demon?

On the other hand (as it were) the hilt end would give him a place to take a firmer grip and he could put more power into jabbing with it. My husband says that where the blade would break would depend on two things: which part of the sword has the poorer quality iron, and what part of the blade is striking against the surface of the creature's hide when it breaks. The break would be at least somewhat jagged.

 

[Glitch]

How about the hero ripping some clothes for a makeshift hilt on the pointy end. He could still cut his hand for dramatic effect, but a healable wound - as far as the story anyway.

 

[The Judge]

How about the hero ripping some clothes for a makeshift hilt on the pointy end.

Er...

"I see you managed to get your shirt off."

 

[alchemist]

The problem there is when you actually make contact. If this demon's skin is so very tough and you ram the blade part into its mouth, the blade can only go so far before it hits bone and/or the inside of the creature's skin. At that point, chances are it's going to stop or slow down very suddenly (assuming it doesn't break again). At that point, there's a high chance of your hand sliding down the blade and, as a result, being sliced open right down all those nice and difficult to heal tendons that cover the insides of your palm and fingers. Bad news for any fantasy hero.

So, practically speaking, the hilt end is by far the best option. In terms of 'awesome factor', I've got to say the idea of the hero grabbing the broken blade and ramming it down the demon's throat sounds quite dramatic. If he cuts his hand in the process... that might even make it more so.

I did actually think about what happened when the blade went out the back of its head. Theoretically, the demon is covered in scales, tough because of the way they overlap. However when you try and penetrate them from behind, *cough cough* they don't form as much of a barrier.

The "awesome factor" (well-put) is the one thing going for that option, but I think practicality will win out.

An older "bog iron" blade, containing a lot of carbon from the smelting (no convenient way of burning it off at the time) and maybe triple forged, would have quite large crystals in it, and would shatter into a jagged end.

This hero has very-much bog-standard equipment, so the jagged end sounds pretty authentic.

On the other hand (as it were) the hilt end would give him a place to take a firmer grip and he could put more power into jabbing with it. My husband says that where the blade would break would depend on two things: which part of the sword has the poorer quality iron, and what part of the blade is striking against the surface of the creature's hide when it breaks. The break would be at least somewhat jagged.

Adding to the authenticity.

How about the hero ripping some clothes for a makeshift hilt on the pointy end. He could still cut his hand for dramatic effect, but a healable wound - as far as the story anyway.

I'm glad to say that I considered this option too, but the demands of the situation will dictate that he doesn't have enough time.

Thanks again, everybody. That's more opinions than I was expecting.

 

[MstrTal]

The only down side I see with the Hero nobly grasping the bladed portion regardless of any damage to his/her own hand is the question of the Demons Blood. Is the demons blood poisonous and will gashing, slashing opening the palm of the hero's hand or loosing a finger or two cause the hero to risk a slower more agonizing death? Which leads me to the question. . . would that possibility further the plot even more?

 

[Jake Reynolds]

I'd go another way- can he simply draw his boot knife now that the demon is prone? Not much good when standing up, but a boot knife comes in handy precisely for these situations. It also lends your hero a bit of badassery, which the other two options may not. Not enough people in fantasy have boot knives- apart from Logen and Ferro, and Logen was a close one.

 

[alchemist]

Ah, Dubrech, good call. He has already stuck his boot knife into the demon's eye, which was what got him to the point where the creature was pinned down and vulnerable. It may not be long enough to kill the demon, though. (He needs the knife for something that happens a few seconds after killing the demon, but the reader doesn't know that yet).

MstrTal: my demon blood goes all fizzy when it meets air, but I don't have it poisonous. Not yet, anyway.

 

[Jake Reynolds]

I think he should yank the eye out, eat it, then use the knife again in its mouth. Yaaaargh! Sorry, doing some berzerker writing at the moment so I'm in that scrappy, messy frame of mind.