High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledore

[Uptheirons5150]

Let me start out by saying that I have scoured the Internet trying to find intellectual comparisons and there are none; I have found, what seems, no better place than this forum here to ask my questions. I am posting in the Tolkien forum because you guys seem smarter. If this is in the wrong place and there is a better place, please tell me!

Second, I must say, this is not a "Who would win in a duel?" argument. If so, I would go to Yahoo answers. Also, this is not a "Who is the better author?" argument. Both writers are drastically different and lived in different times periods and both had different target audiences.



I am a junior in the I.B. (International Baccalaureate) program at my school (Southeast High School). Over the summer of 2011 I will be writing my EE (Extended Essay) which will be between 3,000 and 4,000 words; I'm going to shoot for 3,600, but this is beside the point. For those unfamiliar with EEs, it is an essay based on anything you want it to be (History, Language Arts, Biology, etc.). I am doing a character comparison between beloved Gandalf and Dumbledore, the most fitting. I am certainly not ask anyone to do my homework for me. I can certainly do it on my own, but I am sadly not as knowledgable (though a huge fan) of Middle-Earth and all of its peoples as I am with the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. I am asking for a peer review and clarification of my loose ideas. Please try to clarify any information that is factually wrong, and feel free to throw in your own ideas. Cheers.

These are in no particular order:


The animals associated with the wizards. Fawkes is Dumbledore's pet and symbolizes his fire (more on this later). I was thinking about his role in HP:2 and then how he laments and is shown to fly away (at least in the movies) at Dumbledore's death. [Right now I am 150 pages into LOTR:1 and have read The Hobbit already. Actually, all this reading the last week. I plan to finish as quickly as I can, but it will still take some time to complete the task.] I have seen all the movies of LOTR and have read many tellings of history and events in Middle-Earth. The role of Shadowfax, as he is linked more to Gandalf than any person else, I was thinking about including this.

I have noticed that Gandalf and Dumbledore have very important leadership roles. Leader of the Fellowship of the Ring and Leader of the Order of the Phoenix, respectfully. Specifically, I am thinking about how they orchestrate missions. In The Hobbit, Gandalf brings the dwarf clan to Bilbo's house and tells him he is going to be their burglar. Gandalf organizes "the Burglary." I'm thinking how Gandalf plans the mission to dispose of the Ring in Mordor, but I have not read that far yet. In HP:6, Dumbledore teaches Harry about horcruxes and organizes "The Cave," which is the chapter name where they go to Voldemort's cave to rescue the locket.

Their resurrections. Gandalf's side is obvious; Gandalf the Grey's body dies and he is resurrected as The White. Dumbledore's argument would be how he lives on in the portraits and the chapter in HP:7 entitled "Platform 9 3/4." This is the dream-like apparation that Harry sees and is real (I need to reread this to give myself better understanding because it has become a little foggy).

The most obvious similarities are in age and appearance. This is one of my hazy Tolkien bits, how old is Gandalf? 2,021 before he sailed to the Undying Lands (with Shadowfax?)? I have The Silmarillion which I will be reading after the trilogy, then The Forgotten Tales 1 & 2. But I do know that Dumbledore was 115-116 years old when he died, I need to find the interview of Rowling where she says this. Appearance is bluff. Robes, hair, etc. Gandalf has his special staff and Dumbledore has the Elder wand. On page 61 in my Fellowship book, it says that Gandalf's eyes glinted at Frodo. Dumbledore's eyes are permanently glinting at Harry. I know Gandalf is always shown with his walking staff, and the idea of him being old is persistant, but do any of you know when he is particularly nimble? I'm thinking of HP:6 when Harry and Dumbledore are going to the cave, they have to swim and Dumbledore surprisingly has a perfect breaststroke.

Nature is more of a fun one.

• They both share a very relaxed lifestyle and will tell what needs to be told when they are ready. In HP:1, on the first day of school, Dumbledore before letting everyone eat has to say four words. He says, "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" Gandalf does something very similar in The Hobbit. At Beorn's camp, Beorn transforms and goes off for 2, or so, days and Gandalf disappears for nearly 24 hours. When he comes back the dwarves are desperate to know where has been but before telling them he has to sit down, smoke his pipe and blow smoke bubbles, changing their colors.
• They both resist power for they know it would be bad to the rest of the world. Gandalf never touches the One ring because if he becomes attached, he would be unstoppable. Dumbledore falters once with the Gaunt's ring/ horcrux (of course it is a ring, but the connection is Voldemort's soul in the ring), but he resists the Minister of Magic position because he is fearful power will take him over.
• Gandalf is the only Wise that knows Hobbit-lore. He is accepting that they are different and likes them. Dumbledore saves Buckbeak the hippogriff from being killed (an oppressed animal) and he allows Lupin to teach at his school (a werewolf).
• They both have secrets of dark magic that only they know. Gandalf has discovered that the Baggins' ring is the One Ring. Gandalf knows the most recent happenings of the the Ring (from Smeagol thru present) and tells all this to main character, Frodo. Dumbledore is the only person to discover Voldemort's secrets and he tells them all to Harry. This would be the full Gaunt story, the orphanage story, and all the other horcruxes.

Now, one I need definite support. Is it safe to say that Gandalf shares a close connection with fire like Dumbledore does? Dumbledore was a Gryffindor in his time while attending school. His last glory moment is using a vast amount of fire to protect Harry and himself so to escape the Cave. Don't forget Fawkes. I need to think of more for Dumbledore. Gandalf posesses Narya, which is fire, right? I could say that his nature is lively, but I would rather not.



If you are brave enough to read it all, I am desperate for answers (the essay isn't due for four monthes, I need the answers!). If my poor writing has confused any matter, or my arguments simply do not make sense, please tell me! I beg of you.

 

[Clansman]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Uptheirons, first things first: finish reading LOTR, and especially read the appendices to The Return of the King. That part is full of stuff you need to know about Middle Earth. Also, read the Silmarillion next, and Unfinished Tales if you can get your hand on it. You mention Forgotten Tales. Do you mean the Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2, the first two volumes of The History of Middle Earth ("THoME")? They won't be of any help, as those are the oldest writings of Tolkien about Middle Earth, and are solely focussed on the elves. However, you could read volumes 6 through 9 of THoME (The Return of the Shadow, The Treason of Isengard, The War of the Ring, and Sauron Defeated), which will give you a lot of detail.

The short answer to the above, Gandalf is of the Maiar, one of the lesser immortal spirits of the world which were involved in its Creation through the Creator Iluvatar. To help you further, Gandalf is one of the Istari, five maiar who were sent to Middle Earth in the Third Age to help against the evil of Sauron. These included Saruman, who turned to the Shadow, and Radagast, who chose the natural world over the world of elves and men. There were two others who went into the east and who were "lost to the Shadow", and no more mention is made of them.

Gandalf, in short, is immortal, akin to an angel of the Judeo-Christian theology. He has been in Middle Earth thousands of years by the time of LOTR, and has existed since the dawn of time.

But, GO READ! And good luck on your paper. Feel free to ask more questions, but I suggest that you do some more reading of Tolkien first.

 

[Uptheirons5150]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Trust me, I have read articles about Gandalf (such as Wikipedia and most of the links there). I know about the Istari and whatnot. Why I have concluded from the books is that whole reading I learn physical attributes of Gandalf (as in Gandalf has very flowing handscript much like Dumbledore. Now, I may not be adding this into the essay, but it is in my planning sheet).
As you are inferring, it should be stated that Gandalf has no age in terms of a number? Now then, a more pressing question I have. Can you tell me what you think of Narya? I know it is one of the three Elf Kings' rings and all that jazz. Besides making the person wearing it less likely to fall to tyranny, do you feel as if it makes the wearer linked to Fire? Because if it is...that's half my essay. Also, in which book(s) can I find Narya mentioned?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Narya is the ring of fire. It is the ring that kindles hope, not in the one who wears it, but in those he inspires to fight against tyranny.

But even before he took the form of Gandalf the Grey, Olórin the Maia was known for his ability to walk unseen (but not unfelt) prompting the hearts of those who would otherwise despair with fair visions. Narya, then, seems only to have enhanced one of his primary characteristics. I think this is why Gandalf is able to stand against the Witch King at the gates of Minas Tirith. The Nazgûl are the very essence of fear. They are not frightening because they are terrible; they are terrible because they inspire such deep fear that it saps the will. Fear doesn't work very well against Gandalf, because by his very nature, and by the ring that he carries, he is the antidote to fear. That is his mission. The fire (although he certainly does use ordinary fire for his purposes on occasion) is largely symbolic of something else, something greater but intangible.

Gandalf also proclaims, when he stands against the Balrog, that he is a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. This is never explicitly explained, but Anor is the sun and the Secret Fire is the animating power of life which belongs to Ilúvatar (which is to say, God) and it not only imparts life but grants sentience to Men, Elves, Dwarves, Ents, etc, so that they operate according to their own intelligence and choices, rather than by instinct as animals do, or according to the overpowering will of another, as the servants of Sauron do. So Gandalf states that he is a servant of the light, and the powers that grant life and free will.

You are going to have a difficult time drawing any true comparisons between Gandalf and Dumbledore, because Gandalf is an incarnation of an angelic spirit older than the earth, and Dumbledore is ... just a wizard.

 

[Clansman]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Uptheirons, read TOLKIEN. Read ROWLINGS (though there is notably less of her around than Tolkien). Never mind Wikipedia and all that jazz. Go to the source and make your own conclusions. Teachers and Professors demand primary sources, not secondary (and Wikipedia is really tertiary, and therefore not entirely reliable). Tolkien is the primary source on Gandalf, and none other. The secondary sources are helpful and provide some guidance, but your teachers want to know your ideas and conclusions. They don't want some mindless repetition of internet sources that anyone with a computer can find.

READ, grasshopper. Read.

 

[digs]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

I wouldn't advise to ignore Wikipedia, though obviously it can't be used as a source. It's a great way of getting a general idea for specific things as well as collating other primary or secondary sources. It's an important initial step in pretty much every research essay I produce.

Uptheirons, even if you can't find any major connections of Gandalf with fire (apart from Narya, of course), you could also link fire and light. Dumbledore and Gandalf both serve as guide/mentor characters - a major part of their role is to provide knowledge that illuminates the darkness of the ignorance/inexperience of the protagonists (for Dumbledore, Hogwarts students, especially Gryffindors, and most especially Harry; for Gandalf, the Fellowship, especially the hobbits). Dumbledore's affinity with fire could arguably be read as symbolic of this, and off the top of my head I can think of a few scenarios where Gandalf is the bearer of light, if not fire - his sword, Glamdring, glows when orcs are near; he uses his staff as a light in Moria; in The Hobbit he can summon lightning and set pine cones on fire; and, at least in the films, he uses light from his staff as a weapon when riding into battle (I'm not sure if this is mentioned in the books).

Also: this is much more tenuous, but one of Gandalf's names is Mithrandir, which means 'White Pilgrim' or 'Grey Wanderer'. Dumbledore's name is an Early Modern English name for 'bumblebee', because J.K. Rowling 'imagined him walking around humming to himself'. Maybe you could make some kind of case for them both being sorts of wanderers, though this may be more difficult in Dumbledore's case (could possibly relate to your first point of 'leading relaxed lifestyles').

 

[Uptheirons5150]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

digs, thank you very much. I will make note of what you have said.

Clansman. I am not making a simple research report. I am writing an investigation. My whole 3,500 word essay is dependent on sources. I may be wrong, but it may even be safe to reference forum-based websites. I know they are not 'scholarly,' but I amgoing to argue for them because they are opinions, what I need.
I also think finding your own conclusions are important, but I think being told the real answer, or at least some of the answer let's you tackle the issue in a different light. I would not have guessed that Dumbledore is gay if Rowling did not tell me so. But since she has revealed the truth I have fit it in my mind and it makes since. Dumbledore values love able all else, a feminine trait. No one believes Dumbledore when he said Voldemort has been reborn. They make excuses like, "He's off his rocker" and that "He's old." I think they do not believe him because he is gay and do not want to believe him because of it.

Teresa Edgerton, I love it. I am letting what you say ferment.

 

[The Procrastinator]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Hmm you have a lot of words to fill, hope the topic is complex enough. Maybe also try looking into the origins of both. I think Gandalf as a character (Gandalf the Grey, not the White) owed something to old Norse tales of Odin, giving him a mythological pedigree of sorts. Does Dumbledore have one?

 

[PTeppic]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Hmm you have a lot of words to fill

Really? - some of my letters to the folks get to 3600 words...

 

[Grimward]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Just going to give a couple pointers in response to your questions, Up.

1.

I know Gandalf is always shown with his walking staff, and the idea of him being old is persistant, but do any of you know when he is particularly nimble?

See previous comment where Gandalf first stands down (in Fellowship), then defeats the Balrog (in Two Towers), his capture of Sam after eavesdropping (in Fellowship), his slaying of the Great Goblin (Hobbit), and tree climbing (Hobbit), to name a few.

2. Regarding Gandalf's connection with fire, I think you have enough material from Teresa and Digs to work with. Should you need something more mundane, however, the fireworks in the first Chapter of Fellowship might be useful.

I would agree with both Clanny and Digs here in that you shouldn't ignore Wiki and other web sites as sources for ideas, but definitely take your references from the works and authors themselves (much more fun that way too, at least IMHO).

I like the topic; great idea.

 

[digs]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Just had another thought: both Gandalf and Dumbledore had to face former friends and allies who turned evil; Gandalf with Saruman and Dumbledore with Grindelwald. In both cases they overcame their opponents but were arguably too good to kill them. Saruman and Grindelwald were both eventually killed by their own brand of evil - Saruman by Wormtongue and Grindelwald by Voldemort. Grindelwald and Saruman, because they're so similar and so close to Dumbledore and Gandalf, essentially illustrate what would happen to the two good wizards if they gave in to the temptation of power.

In the end it falls to the pupils, Harry and Frodo, to defeat the main antagonists - demonstrating, in both cases, that 'from little things big things grow' (having a powerful, experienced wizard defeat a great evil is less potent than having a 17 year-old student or a hobbit do it).

 

[Boaz]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Uptheirons5150, my apologies for not noticing this thread three months ago. I realize that you've only got a month left, but I'd like to make a comment or two.

First, Gandalf was the leader of the Fellowship, but I'd say the Fellowship is less analogous to The Order of the Phoenix and more analogous to Hogwarts. The Fellowship is the classroom where Gandalf teaches and finalizes his lessons to the members. Aragorn gets his final lessons in leading and decision making. Legolas and Gimli learn how to improve race relations. Boromir learns to follow. And the Hobbits all learn to lead their people out of their isolationist policies.

The White Council, a group of powerful Wizards and influential Elves, is more akin to the Order of the Phoenix. The White Council was formed sometime in the two thousand years before the events of the War of the Ring. Saruman was the leader, against the wishes of Galadriel and Cirdan.

And I'd say that Merry, Pippin, Sam and Frodo end up being the core of Middle-earth's equivalent of Dumbledore's Army. Are the Hobbits really ready to go to war? No, but they take on a great challenge in removing Saruman and his ruffians from the Shire.

Second, both Dumbledore and Gandalf are the most formidable wizards for good in their respective worlds... but their real strength lies in how they encouraged others to stand up to evil. What they both did was bring information to the decieved, strength to the weak, and hope to the hopeless.

Third, both men were the prime movers against the evil of their time. They coordinated communications and efforts of their allies. They planned attacks and defenses. They prepared for their wars over years and years.

Fourth, both lived to protect the weak and the innocent. Both gave up their lives to save others. Both had anticipated this by passing on as much instruction as possible. Neither regretted that decision.

Fifth, both of their personalities changed over time. We know Dumbledore started as an idealistic, brilliant, and arrogant young man... and he learned sorrow and wisdom from his mistakes. Although he carried the weight of the world upon his shoulders, he constantly looked for joy and wonder. Gandalf was almost the opposite. He loved joy and wonder from the beginning because he was a Maia, i.e. an Angel. Through the two thousand years of his stay in Middle-earth, he became worn down by the cares and concern of his mission. It was only after his rebirth that he resdiscovered deep joy.

Sixth, Gandalf is an angelic being serving on the mortal plane and Dumbledore is a man. Gandalf's perspective is neccessarily much wider and all encompassing than Dumbledore's.

Seventh, both Dumbledore and Gandalf were forced to study the black arts of the enemy. They searched the mysteries of the ages. They found the lost weapons that their enemies lusted after. Both were tempted by the power these ultimate weapons offered. Importantly, both men refused to justify taking up these weapons and using dark magic to defeat the Dark Lords that assailed them.

I know I've not really offered any contrasts between Gandalf and Dumbledore... only comparisons. But in my opinion, they perform the same function in their respective stories. 1. They bring hope. 2. They shun evil. 3. They teach others to follow their example. 4. They see the danger years in advance and prepare against it. 5. They are willing to lay down their lives for their beliefs.

I hope you let us know how the paper turns out. Best wishes!

 

[Peter Graham]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Hmm you have a lot of words to fill, hope the topic is complex enough. Maybe also try looking into the origins of both. I think Gandalf as a character (Gandalf the Grey, not the White) owed something to old Norse tales of Odin, giving him a mythological pedigree of sorts. Does Dumbledore have one?

I think they both do. The character of the wise old magical guardian goes back to the earliest British texts and quite possibly crops up in other cultures too. The wise old magical guardian is usually accompanied by a wet-behind-the-ears stripling who is forced to accept a destiny which they feel singularly ill equipped for.

The start point in British writing is Merlin, who (as Myrddin), crops up in a number of very old Welsh poems which were written down in their current form 800 or more years ago but which are likely to be much older - some of it may go back to the 6th and 7th century. Merlin started out as the bard of King Gwenddoleu but was soon brought in to the Arthurian canon where he became the wierdie beardie wand-twiddler and Arthur-coddler of later literature. Both Gandalf and Dumbledore owe a great debt to the Merlin figure, as does the character of Ben Kenobi.

The role of this character is to give the young buck (and the reader) a heads up on the world they are entering, whilst at the same time providing initial protection for said buck against the usually far more powerful Dark Lord figure, at least until the young buck has mastered their sword swishing, at which point the guardian dies or otherwise is removed from proceedings, leaving the young buck to fend for himself. The early Merlin goes mad in the Caledonian forest, whereas his later incarnation is bewitched in a cave. The resurrection of Gandalf is a motif with clear links to Tolkien's Christian faith and was used overtly for that very same purpose by Tolkien's equally religious chum, C S Lewis. To confuse things further, the notion of death and rebirth is not an exclusively Christian motif and also crops up in pagan Norse mythology - as Tolkien would have known very well, being something of an expert on the topic.

JKR is a tremendous absorber of material and athough I have seen debates about her own religious views, I'd guess that Dumbledore is primarily a deliberate mash up of Gandalf and Merlin.

Regards,

Peter

 

[WizardofOwls]

Re: High-level school paper: comparison of Tolkien's Gandalf with Rowling's Dumbledor

Perhaps a comparison between Merlin and Gandalf would be more appropriate? Or Merlin and Dumbledore depending upon one's view of just who Merlin was?