Feminism in aSoIaF MAJOR SPOILERS

[The Imp]

Noobs, read at your own peril. You'll wish you didn't

I guess the one good thing that came out of that horrible Bellafonte review is it caused me to think about females in the series.

At first blush one could say that it's a series that is mostly about empowering women. Examples would be

Sansa's development over the course of the series is remarkable. She goes from fantasizing about marrying "her prince' to matching wits with Little Finger. She literally becomes a different person, going from Sansa to Alayne.

Dany goes from being traded as a piece of property to being one of the most powerful people in the Free Cities

Arya goes from being a powerless orphan to a cold-blooded killing machine (that now needs a seeing eye dog, more on this in a bit)

Catelyn goes from being the dutiful wife and mother to being the powerful and cruel Un-Cat

Cersei manipulates her way into being the real ruler of the 7 Kingdoms

Brienne has consistently been a strong female character, probably the match of almost any man in the series.

Asha Greyjoy is a VERY strong woman who commands the respect of the Ironmen who barely respect men, let alone women.

Arianne is a very strong character, as are the Sand Snakes.


It's not as simple as that however. GRRM gives women power, but also takes it away.

Arya becomes a killing machine and wakes up blind. That's almost as bad as what happened to Gregor Samsa, the protagonist in The Metamorphosis who has a name that is eerily related to aSoIaF.

Cersei becomes the not so irresistible force as she meets the immovable object of the High Septon

Arianne's plot fails, but daddy forgives her (imagine a fatherly pat on the head here)

Cat becomes more powerful at the cost of her humanity.

Asha misplays her cards and fails in her bid to become Queen. A large part of her failed attempt was the introduction of "feminine ideals- peace, harmony, food, growth, etc.

Brienne takes a pounding throughout the entire series. She lives as a man in a man's world, but pays the price. She may not live to tell about it (sure )

Dany's power is consolidated in part through "black magic" and at the cost of her beloved Drogo and also at the cost of never being able to bear a child.

Sansa gains power, but has to pay the price of giving up the child in her, and her dreams.

Overall, one could say that GRRM gives women power but there are always strings attached. i guess that mirrors real life fairly well. You could probably analyze the men in the series and say very similar things about them as well. in the end, GRRM is pretty fair about the way he uses both women and men. He is certainly not afraid to empower women, but might be afraid to let them keep it once they have it.

 

[TK-421]

Your analysis is interesting Imp. I don't know if he's afraid that the female characters keep the power. The jury is still out on that one until we know what will really happen to Dany, Cersei, Melissandre, Sansa, Arya, Arianne and Asha.

GRRM conveys loud and clear that these women have to fight like hell, perhaps even more so on other levels than the men to gain some power. Cersei's example of her wishing she was a man so that Tywin trusted her over Jaime or even Tyrion is a good one here. If you were to draw parallels between the world of ASOIF and Earth in the Middle Ages, that message from GRRM goes to that period in time when few women truly gained power and those who did, did so at a hefty price. Think Anne Boelyn or her daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.

Is this any different from more modern times? The price paid may have changed but, generally (please don't kill me for speaking generally) women have always paid a price, different from men.

A critique of ASOIF based on one episode of the HBO show is unfair reflection of the themes explored in GRRM's series. I believe that, when one dives into the series and discovers the true nature and struggles of the female characters, it opens a better understanding.

That's my layperson's viewpoint.

 

[The Imp]

TK

Thanks for reminding me about Melisandre. There's also Lady Olenna.

My assumption is that Dany will continue to consolidate power and grow stronger, at least through ADWD. She's paid her "iron price" though.

Cersei is not going to rot away in some dungeon. I'm sure we've not heard the lst of her.

I have a feeling that Asha will have a major role to play in ADWD.

Sansa will also grow more powerful. The interesting thing will be, is she a Stark, or has GRRM already forever taken away her "Strakness" by transforming her into Alayne Stone?

Arya will not be blind for the rest of the series, and i think her true power will emerge when she has the training of a Faceless Man and is reunited with Nymeria. A FM that can warg sounds fairly impressive

Melisandre? Hmmmm. Certainly powerful, but in a cheesy, manipultive sort of way. I don't see a good end for her, or for Stannis for that matter.

 

[Delran Stark]

Imp, Sansa's marriage with the heir of the Vale is based on the fact that she is a Stark. I do not think that she will remain Alayne for long. Littlefinger plans the wedding for her as a Stark. He said something about Winterfell in his plans for Sansa.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Sansa will also grow more powerful. The interesting thing will be, is she a Stark, or has GRRM already forever taken away her "Strakness" by transforming her into Alayne Stone?

This is an interesting question, but the fact that she's lost her dire wolf bodes ill for her Starkness I'm afraid.

I think about Ned advising Arya (I'm paraphrasing here), "when the winter comes the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives." The Starks are pretty well dispersed at the moment, but I imagine they'll be back together at some point. But I really do wonder if Sansa will be one of them at that point.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Ok, that last bit was a digression from the topic at hand, so let me just add that I think Lady Olena is really important here. There are lots of examples of women who are poisoned in one way or another by the Westerosi culture.

Cersei can't really get over her bitterness that she can't just take power in her own right. Lysa has basically never been able to make her choices and is a mess for it. Sansa has a very difficult time seeing the world for what it is. The Queen of Thornes, on the other hand, seems to have settled into her role pretty well. She knows she's the one running things and it's not important at all to her that she 's seen as the one in charge.

 

[The Imp]

Imp, Sansa's marriage with the heir of the Vale is based on the fact that she is a Stark. I do not think that she will remain Alayne for long. Littlefinger plans the wedding for her as a Stark. He said something about Winterfell in his plans for Sansa.

Things don't always go as they are planned

Sansa losing her name may mean nothing or it may be proof that the Stark link was broken when she lost Lady.

 

[The Imp]

This is an interesting question, but the fact that she's lost her dire wolf bodes ill for her Starkness I'm afraid.

I think about Ned advising Arya (I'm paraphrasing here), "when the winter comes the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives." The Starks are pretty well dispersed at the moment, but I imagine they'll be back together at some point. But I really do wonder if Sansa will be one of them at that point.

Sansa will become Dany's lover and get her own dragon, enabling her to warg and join forces with the Starks to defeat the Others

 

[Boaz]

The word feminism to me describes the advocacy for women to have the same legal and political rights as men... or maybe that's suffrage and not feminism. Feminism has become the term for equal social footing between genders.

In ASOIAF, I don't believe there are any areas where women are given the same benefits as men. Among the nobles of Westeros, it seems that male primogeniture is the preferred method, but it's not as rigid as medieval English inheritance. For example, after Tywin's death Cersei inherited Casterly Rock since Jaime renounced his claim and Tyrion was stripped of all rights. But Cersei inherits over Kevan, Tywin's younger brother... which is interesting to me that female do possess that amount of rights.

Also among the nobles, women are not allowed into knighthood. This may be called discrimination, but it may also be called a privilege in that women are not forced nor expected to die upon the battlefield. Jaime complained to Catelyn of his numerous oaths, but male knights were expected to defend all rights of noble females before their own.

Among the poor, it seems there was no suffrage at all. Neither men nor women have any say in the government.

There are too few instances of jurisprudence to get a good picture, but both men and women participated in the testimony against Gregor Clegane and Tyrion Lannister. And it seems that both Lysa Arryn and Cersei were able to bring legal cases against Tyrion and even name their own champions for their slain husband and son.

With her father's blessing, Asha became a ship's captain and thus gained equal social and martial status with the males of the Iron Islands. Once a captain, only her ability kept her there. It seems that fleets of the Ironborn operate as a meritocracy... and Asha has proved her worth. It seems that she must work very hard to maintain her respect, but she's not above working hard.

Social standings are not equal in Westeros, but there are opportunities for women. They can own businesses (Masha Heddle, Chataya), they can rule (Cersei, Maege Mormont), they can fight (Brienne, Asha, Obara Sand, Dacey Mormont, Chella), they can command soldiers (Catelyn, Maege, Asha, Chella, Nym), they can participate in politics (Cersei, Olenna, Margaery, Arianne, Sybell Westerling), they can spy (Taena, Shae, Sarella), they can run services and households (Mya Stone, Amarei Frey, Genna Lannister), they can teach (Septa Mordane), they can serve as ambassadors (Catelyn), and they can work in the church (Septas and the Silent Sisters).

It seems conversely, that the Wildlings have more freedoms for women than their southern neighbors. Wildling women can more easily work, fight, lead, and excercise freedom of speech. Ygritte, Harma Dogshead, and Val seem to be the obvious examples. But the Wildling women are also freer to be raped by their own fathers, have their children sacrificed to demons, and to be kidnapped under threat of death.

 

[The Imp]

The word feminism to me describes the advocacy for women to have the same legal and political rights as men... or maybe that's suffrage and not feminism. Feminism has become the term for equal social footing between genders.

In ASOIAF, I don't believe there are any areas where women are given the same benefits as men. Among the nobles of Westeros, it seems that male primogeniture is the preferred method, but it's not as rigid as medieval English inheritance. For example, after Tywin's death Cersei inherited Casterly Rock since Jaime renounced his claim and Tyrion was stripped of all rights. But Cersei inherits over Kevan, Tywin's younger brother... which is interesting to me that female do possess that amount of rights.

Also among the nobles, women are not allowed into knighthood. This may be called discrimination, but it may also be called a privilege in that women are not forced nor expected to die upon the battlefield. Jaime complained to Catelyn of his numerous oaths, but male knights were expected to defend all rights of noble females before their own.

Among the poor, it seems there was no suffrage at all. Neither men nor women have any say in the government.

There are too few instances of jurisprudence to get a good picture, but both men and women participated in the testimony against Gregor Clegane and Tyrion Lannister. And it seems that both Lysa Arryn and Cersei were able to bring legal cases against Tyrion and even name their own champions for their slain husband and son.

With her father's blessing, Asha became a ship's captain and thus gained equal social and martial status with the males of the Iron Islands. Once a captain, only her ability kept her there. It seems that fleets of the Ironborn operate as a meritocracy... and Asha has proved her worth. It seems that she must work very hard to maintain her respect, but she's not above working hard.

Social standings are not equal in Westeros, but there are opportunities for women. They can own businesses (Masha Heddle, Chataya), they can rule (Cersei, Maege Mormont), they can fight (Brienne, Asha, Obara Sand, Dacey Mormont, Chella), they can command soldiers (Catelyn, Maege, Asha, Chella, Nym), they can participate in politics (Cersei, Olenna, Margaery, Arianne, Sybell Westerling), they can spy (Taena, Shae, Sarella), they can run services and households (Mya Stone, Amarei Frey, Genna Lannister), they can teach (Septa Mordane), they can serve as ambassadors (Catelyn), and they can work in the church (Septas and the Silent Sisters).

It seems conversely, that the Wildlings have more freedoms for women than their southern neighbors. Wildling women can more easily work, fight, lead, and excercise freedom of speech. Ygritte, Harma Dogshead, and Val seem to be the obvious examples. But the Wildling women are also freer to be raped by their own fathers, have their children sacrificed to demons, and to be kidnapped under threat of death.

Thanks for your thoughtful and well thought out response Boaz.

I'll just make this short point in response- It's BECAUSE of how lopsidedly the scales are tilted in the favor of men in aSoIaF that I find the journies of the women i mentioned to be remarkable. Brienne won a tourney and became a member of Renley's kingsguard, and did so depsite the fact that women traditionally can't become knights or serve in that way. Arya is allowed to train in sowrds by her father, quite visionary and contrary to conventional thinking that would have her doing more traditional 'needlework". Dany in effect becomes Khal and is followed by males that probably never imagained that such a day would ever pass. cersei outmanuevers Ned and beats him in their personal game of thrones.

My idea of feminism is not necessarily about equality as much as it is about a woman taking control of her own life and being more powerful than she "should" be. In that regard, Cersei is probably the quintisential feminist, given what her role as queen should have been and what she turned it into.

 

[Boaz]

I am definitely not saying that the professions of tourney champion, soldier, and ruler are there for all women. Even the more (relatively) basic professions of businesswoman and guide are only undertaken by more adventuresome women.

You contend that Cersei represents the feminist ideal more than any other character. I'd not gainsay that. But let me be play devil's advocate...

Cersei gets what she can on her own terms. She's saddled with an abusive husband... so she gets her loving where and when she can. She's got political enemies who want to tear her down (Jon, Eddard, Stannis)... and yet she's ruling in KL after all them are dead or gone. She rules Westeros... and will not accpet less remuneration than Robert. She is still her father's daughter... yet she fights him over another marriage, except upon her terms. She expresses her desire to have her kids dependent upon no one... except herself.

And yet, Cersei is not fully trained in economics, leadership, military strategy, religion, or diplomacy... and she is not aware of this. Her inability to see her own deficiencies has beggared the realm, caused a leadership vaccuum, divided the military, allowed the church to rebel, and alienated most of her allies.

Cersei's overwhelming desire to be a man will destroy her... and the realm.

 

[The Imp]

I am definitely not saying that the professions of tourney champion, soldier, and ruler are there for all women. Even the more (relatively) basic professions of businesswoman and guide are only undertaken by more adventuresome women.

You contend that Cersei represents the feminist ideal more than any other character. I'd not gainsay that. But let me be play devil's advocate...

Cersei gets what she can on her own terms. She's saddled with an abusive husband... so she gets her loving where and when she can. She's got political enemies who want to tear her down (Jon, Eddard, Stannis)... and yet she's ruling in KL after all them are dead or gone. She rules Westeros... and will not accpet less remuneration than Robert. She is still her father's daughter... yet she fights him over another marriage, except upon her terms. She expresses her desire to have her kids dependent upon no one... except herself.

And yet, Cersei is not fully trained in economics, leadership, military strategy, religion, or diplomacy... and she is not aware of this. Her inability to see her own deficiencies has beggared the realm, caused a leadership vaccuum, divided the military, allowed the church to rebel, and alienated most of her allies.

Cersei's overwhelming desire to be a man will destroy her... and the realm.

I agree, so I'll say in retrospect, i think using Cersei was a bad idea. I'll now say Dany is a much better example.

 

[Wiggum]

I simply have a hard time seeing any gender qualification within the series.

Both males and females rise to great heights, and suffer great lows.

Any base born male suffers from the same social maladies as his female counterpart, as any woman born to high birth can achieve as much power as her male comparison.

It's the person and situation of the birth, not the genitalia, that determines the end result.

 

[The Imp]

I simply have a hard time seeing any gender qualification within the series.

Both males and females rise to great heights, and suffer great lows.

Any base born male suffers from the same social maladies as his female counterpart, as any woman born to high birth can achieve as much power as her male comparison.

It's the person and situation of the birth, not the genitalia, that determines the end result.

Except the story take place in a world where very often might makes right, and men are mightier than women. There is no ERA in aSoIaF

 

[Wiggum]

No ERA, but there are the Sand Snakes, Mel, the wilding women, the Queen of Thorns, female faceless men, a defacto female ruler of the seven kingdoms, Mother, Maiden, Crone,a knight of the Rainbow Guard, the Mother of Dragons.....

I've never caught the idea in the series that men inherently mightier.

More prone to slinging steel at each other perhaps.

For all it's a patriarchal society, a lot of womenz are calling the shots.

 

[Boaz]

Both males and females rise to great heights, and suffer great lows.

It's the person and situation of the birth, not the genitalia, that determines the end result.

Now we're down to the meat of the argument. Ambition... that can be a virtue when it drives us to excel. Oboy. Did I just quote Commodus? I probably just shot myself in the foot with that kind of supporting remark.

We may try and try again in every time and society to legislate gender and social equality, but it cannot be done. You can only level the playing field so much... the ambitious will always lead. Even when the rules are unfair, the ambitious break them and rise to power. It may happen for everyone, but gender, race, and birth will not hold them back.

Some people have always been and always will be objectified. Women, orphans, children, the elderly, foreigners, handicapped, dwarfs, etc...

But what is GRRM trying to say? Does might make right? Is there room for nobility? Is evil real? Can there be atonement for injustices? Every time I think he's making a statement, he comes back with a counter argument... or else he just likes to pull my chain.

For example, Eddard tries mightily to keep his promises to his family and friends, even the dead ones. These are secret vows and no one is aware of them except Eddard. No one will hold him accountable for these oaths... except himself. He strives like Valjean to be honorable in his own eyes. And Eddard dies a traitor's death and his family is scattered, hounded, and killed for this.

And Jaime is a bad man. A very bad man. He sins seem beyond atonement, but Jaime is now trying to find redemption. Really? Will it be possible.

If might does make right, then Cersei is the most righteous person in Westeros. Now that's a scary thought. Self-righteous maybe. She personifies the maxim about absolute power.

So how do women specifically succeed? Well they can work within the rules (Olenna, Margaery). They can do what they are physically and intellectually capable of doing (Shae, Brienne, Amarei, Lysa). They can break the rules and push the boundaries (Catelyn, Arianne, Asha). They can use their female charms (Cersei, Arianne, Shae, Chataya, etc.).

Just like men, they must use their particular gifts. The Clegane brothers have a place in Westeros because they're good at killing. Kevan, Randyll, and Brynden have places because they are dutiful. Middlefinger and Doran have places because they plot and execute plans.

 

[TK-421]

Does anyone know if GRRM has ever been asked in an interview or by readers of his portrayal of female characters and what was his answer?

 

[the smiling weirwood]

One thing I always loved so much about the books is that, unlike a lot of authors, I could never detect any sort of personal judgment about types of people. I never thought while I was reading, "My god, how sexist, George must be a misogynistic pig" like I did with Robert Jordan or "What is this moralizing ********?" like when I was reading Orson Scott Card or "This man is ****** up in the head, it's like he's got Ayn Rand's hand up his ass working him like a puppet" like I did when I read (which I now regret) Terry Goodkind.

Even GRRM's depiction of Renly and Loras isn't judgmental or demonizing. They aren't the smartest guys, but he treats them just the same as any of his other characters.

That's something that's endeared George to me as an author, and something that allows me to enjoy his books.

I think he must be a very good man. I was reading this one series by R. Scott Bakker, maybe you know it, and while it was such a good read, I thought the aggressive misogynism a bit much, even for a fantasy. It was so extreme, I thought surely it must be some sort of reflection of the subconscious at the very least, and given free reign by the excuse of a fantastical setting. More than that though, and what really turned me off was the whole premise of the man philosopher guy, the darkness that comes before *****. That exact kind of pseudo-philosophical thinking was discredited in the real world ages ago, and yet he proceeds to amp it up to 11 and set his main character, who is really just a vessel for the plot and possibly the author's own power fantasies and lacks any personal dimension whatsoever, on god mode. I had a hard time enjoying those books after I realized the author must be an idiot.

Okay, so I guess the point of that rather rambling aside was that I've never gotten that feeling from GRRM.

 

[philyra]

I remember at some point there was a comment made about Lord Varys - 'more dangerous for having no sexual desire' or some-such - that him being a eunuck and not driven by his sexuality and base desires making him more adaptable and good at what he does - then the Unsullied are also portrayed as a proper bad-ass elite force, again suggesting that the removal of gender (or the male genitalia) at any rate, makes you AWESOME in GRRM world. (Not that being a spider or a slave is something to be super-thrilled about)