Game of Thrones HBO - Disappointments, discuss.

[Ursa major]

Making Cersei two-dimensionally evil would have gone against the spirit of the books. ASoIaF is a series of studies in shades of grey, some very pale, others quite dark**.

In the early books, Cersei's character looks darker than it probably is because we see her only through others' eyes, most of them unrelentingly unsympathetic from the first time they mention her. I'm not a fan of hers, but when we see her, she's playing for high stakes: her life, those of her children, that of her twin brother. Yes, she brought this on herself (and, later, she let Joffrey sit on the throne***). But what was the alternative? Littlefinger had it right****: Stannis would have been just like Robert, only less sympathetic and more single minded*****, to the extent that he'd tear the kingdom apart, starting with those Cersei most loved.

In the TV series, we're in the world of third person omniscience: so while we have even less insight into Cersei's thinking (because we can no more look inside her head than in those of the book's POV characters), we see more of her as she acts in private, because viewers expect a more rounded view of the show's world. We thus see the scenes that may have played out unseen in the books.


** - Given that the author is GRRM, I wouldn't be completely surprised if we got to see some understandable logic behind the behaviour of the Others.

*** - Though I don't know what else she could have done: we know, as she must have, that Ned was going to relinquish his stewardship of the throne to Stannis, so she had to tear up Robert's letter giving Ned that authority. She probably saw that her only way to get her hands on the reins of power was through Joffrey as King. Tragic, really.

**** - Did I just type that?

***** - Didn't Ned say that Cersie should take her children and run, and added that Stannis's agent would scour the world looking for them. (Talk about forcing the issue. Silly Ned.)

 

[Lyanna Stark]

Thanks for the warm welcome TK-421!

I did not mean to say that I felt Cersei should be two-dimensional. I know she's a mama lion when it comes to her children, and she has a lot more dimension then we're otherwise led to believe, especially when we only see her through the eyes of others in the books. As I said, I adore Cersei; she is incredibly complex. I think that's the beauty of her character, she is cunning, manipulative, self-serving, but she's also fiercely loyal to those she loves, and I believe wholeheartedly that she would do anything for Jaime or her children.

But for example in AFFC, when Cersei gets her own POV chapters, we get to see into her on a level we don't see in the first three books, so we see a bit more of what makes her tick, her motivations for doing certain things, and her motivations are nearly always self-serving, and by self, I mean Cersei herself and her children. She is power-hungry; that cannot be denied.

She does have her moments when she's human, but in her own POV chapters, even Cersei admits that the moments in which she finds herself sympathetic, and at times even empathetic, are very far a few between, and make her grossly uncomfortable.

I don't believe any of these things make her two-dimensional; I see it rather as her "tragic flaw." It's one of the things I find most fascinating about her.

As for the direwolves, yes, they were present for the major scenes, birth, Bran's attack, etc. And I do understand why they've made the decisions they've made; from a practical filmmaking standpoint, it makes perfect sense. And yes, they appeared more in the latest episode. Even so, I just feel that the direwolves are such an important and integral part of the Stark children, (their importance is reiterated countless times in the series) I wish that importance was emphasized a bit more in the series, even if they aren't always present.

 

[Lyanna Stark]

Additionally, how did everyone feel about Sansa learning the truth of Sandor's burn from Littlefinger and not Sandor himself? I always kind of thought that Sandor telling Sansa was fairly important as he doesn't speak of it much (if ever) and is one of the first major interactions between the two of them. Am I being overly critical? Thoughts?

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I'm with you Lyanna, I thought Sandor delivering that speech to Sansa was more powerful because he revealed it himself. I'm not sure why they had Littlefinger explain it.

 

[X'Nedra]

I agree also - it seemed important in his character development that he divulged that info himself.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Anyways, how does one put a 694 page book into 10 hours of TV screentime? By making choices about what scenes are important, how they are portrayed, how the story flows to ensure it's comprehensible and not disjointed, what characters does one focus on, how does one not lose the audience given the depth and complexity of GRRM's world, and how do you put all that written description, back-story and internal dialogue onto a TV screen while still making sense and not losing the audience.

Given all of this, I think it's quite a feat that they manage to condense hundred of pages into a couple of hours without the whole becoming disjointed. So of any nit-picky purist complaints I might have, this will never be one of them.

I don't believe any of these things make her two-dimensional; I see it rather as her "tragic flaw." It's one of the things I find most fascinating about her.

I agree. But she has a far more interesting tragic flaw than, say, Ned Stark did. Also, welcome to this happy board.

 

[Eulalia]

I agree with Lyanna and Messana that they lost a powerful interaction between Sansa and the Hound.

Here's why they may have moved the explanation to Littlefinger. Those of us who have read the books can easily identify Sandor. He has a Hound Helm and half a burned face and he kills Micah, etc. However, those viewers who have not read the books need a lot more in the way of an introduction. The characters in books, pretty much have name tags when they speak and move. In a TV show, they need to be introduced. So they probably didn't want the Hound (a guy with half a burned face) running around for many episodes without an explanation. The dialogue was necessary to avoid a lot of "whaaaaahhht, ehhhh" from the viewers. (not good)

That is also probably why they did the sex scene with Littlefinger directing. They want to establish him as a player of the game of thrones as an unscrupulous puppetmaster with a sentimental weakness. Without a pop up that says, "here is Littlefinger an unscrupulous puppetmaster with a sentimental weakness." Those things are developed much more slowly in the books, but they have to show it quickly. Why not.

These characters must be established before significant events.

I agree that Cersei (and Catelyn and Jaime)is more sympathetically portrayed. There is more to sympathize with her in the books, but it is overshadowed by her character. Perhaps GRRM listened when people complained that they didn't like enough of his characters. He also does like his shades of grey and messing with our certainties.

It would be hard, I imagine, to get a dog actor, to fake a bond with the actors if it is not there. I suppose they could have a trainer stand in. They are working on the set, as well so usual dog exhuberance may not be there. It may be wise not to push the direwolf bond more, (and have they on screen more) if they can't deliver that feeling on screen. Also, ghost has a deep and complex character, and I don't know how they would audition the dog. In these cases, I bet an animated version would be more successful, but that is not what they have to work with.

Wiggum, special delivery, of course! One can imagine the casting requirements with the words "well, endowed", giant, and willing to go the full monty.

 

[Lyanna Stark]

Eulalia, I do understand the need for changing a few things up by way of practicals, specifically the dire-dogs. Having worked with animals both as a pet owner and as an A.D. on film sets, certain alterations are necessary. I don't take issue with the size of the dogs, and honestly with the last episode, a large part of my concerns were erased.

I personally thought the Littlefinger directing porn scene was absolutely brilliant. As you said, it conveys everything you need to know about Littlefinger in a totally raunchy HBO way. Not that the raunchy makes it better, mind, but it was just so spot on in introducing us to the *real* Littlefinger.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I personally thought the Littlefinger directing porn scene was absolutely brilliant. As you said, it conveys everything you need to know about Littlefinger in a totally raunchy HBO way. Not that the raunchy makes it better, mind, but it was just so spot on in introducing us to the *real* Littlefinger.

You mean that he is a player of the game, directing people without getting his own hands dirty? This is true. But I'm afraid that the people not familiar with the books will just see him as a pervert. Especially when we get to the part where he makes a move on Sansa. Weirdo.

However, putting this on HBO was a great move.

 

[Lyanna Stark]

You mean that he is a player of the game, directing people without getting his own hands dirty? This is true. But I'm afraid that the people not familiar with the books will just see him as a pervert. Especially when we get to the part where he makes a move on Sansa. Weirdo.

However, putting this on HBO was a great move.

Touche.

 

[Eulalia]

Petyr does seem to have a wee kink, so it's not too far off. He can be very cold hearted as well.

I suppose another problem, if they had too much dog in the series, is that it might end up seeming like Lassie x5, well, x4. Could be really awful.

I'm sad too, that they don't really do the direwolf/Stark bond justice.

I imagined Cersei as being more blonde, buxom and bad. Interesting what they've done, different, but I do like the Series Cersei, and that they have highlighted her most sympathetic motivations. They are there.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

What bothers me about Cersei is that she's not wholly pretty. Rather, she's specifically pretty. I know I'm not making much sense but what I'm saying is, I guess, that I pictured Cersei as someone who is attractive to everyone. Maybe I did expect her to be more blonde and buxom, like Eulalia described it.

 

[Lofwyr]

What bothers me about Cersei is that she's not wholly pretty. Rather, she's specifically pretty. I know I'm not making much sense but what I'm saying is, I guess, that I pictured Cersei as someone who is attractive to everyone. Maybe I did expect her to be more blonde and buxom, like Eulalia described it.

I think we all imagined the series with a more modern tint on it. It's only natural, that's what we deal with every day. That being said, the Cersei in my imagination was always more supermodel-esque. That wouldn't really fit with the show and setting though. I think Lena Headey is a very good fit really. She's very attractive (especially relative to most of the other women) without breaking the look of the setting.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I think we all imagined the series with a more modern tint on it. It's only natural, that's what we deal with every day .

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, Lofwyr. Could you explain?

 

[Koopa]

He probably means the clothes look ragged and medieval, the buildings and props (tables, walls, goblets, ...) look like half-ruins/things you'd find at old wreckages. The fighting is realistic, instead of over-the-top-kungfu-like-fighting. And the persons themselves look like they wash once every two weeks or so whilst doing their hair, .... in strange ways.

Me, i like it though, it's the way i wanted it to be, and the way i was expecting it to be. Since it's on HBO.

Speaking of looks. So far i found sansa a dissapointment. She was supposed to be a budding young girl in the mids of blossoming into a red-head beauty. All i saw was a pale-faced woody expressionless girl. Okay, i'm exagerrating it's not that she's not beautiful she was just lacking appeal. I just wasn't feeling her (or whatever the term).
To my utter surprise, she actually looked beautiful near the end of the last episode.

It's a bummer really that 5 seconds later she was doing the scene with Joffrey. the acting during it was well done, those scenes are just not my cup of tea. I've always find stuff like that draggy.

 

[Lofwyr]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, Lofwyr. Could you explain?

He probably means the clothes look ragged and medieval, the buildings and props (tables, walls, goblets, ...) look like half-ruins/things you'd find at old wreckages. The fighting is realistic, instead of over-the-top-kungfu-like-fighting. And the persons themselves look like they wash once every two weeks or so whilst doing their hair, .... in strange ways.

I basically meant what Kiwi said. Rationally, I know the characters, clothes and buildings are going to look something like Kiwi describes. Even so, my mind's eye envisions things in a somewhat more modern light. It's not intentional it's just instinctive...in my imagination things look more polished and clean, the descriptions of beauty conform more to my images of modern standards, etc.

 

[Needle]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay I feel very slightly better now. Just watched the Baelor episode. I shall now go off to cuss, rant and cry some more. Will get back with you fine people when I can think straight!

 

[The Imp]

Really, really, REALLY disappointed that we won't see the TOJ flashback

 

[Conor]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay I feel very slightly better now. Just watched the Baelor episode. I shall now go off to cuss, rant and cry some more. Will get back with you fine people when I can think straight!

Keep us posted after youve had some coffee or tea.

 

[Bazza]

So I'm not a fan of this thread, because I think the show does so many wonderful things from the book that a lot of the little details seem petty compared to what they have truly accomplished bringing this epic to the small screen.

That being said though, I do agree with the Imp and regret that the Tower of Joy scene was cut ( and Bran's falling dream was cut). I do feel that these are integral scenes introducing or hinting at the monumental importance of the two characters involved. To me they were very powerful scenes and drew me into the series much farther than the political intrigue ever did.

But from what I have seen so far, I am fully confident that these missing cogs will reveal themselves later in the series, at the very least, in a newly creative way. I believe that this is all due to time constraints which I fully understand, that some things must be sacrificed. I also understand that in the series we have moved away from the first person POV perspectives described in the books and introduce a 3rd person POV description in the show.

....but still! TOJ come onnnnn next season!!! Maybe a prologue for one of the new seasons? Yes? Best scene ever. I predict Ser Barristan describing some reason why the Lord Commander of the kingsguard was guarding some wayward Stark girl on the borders of Dorne in the Dance of Dragons!