Writing is fun, redrafting is a killer

Philosopher

Philosopher
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So, I wrote a novel without revising it much. 120k words seemed to flow and flow naturally during the year it took. I asked a few friends, and my most feared critic: my mother (who happens to be a writer / literature enthusiast and a damn good one at that), what they thought. The general gist was that the story was very good but the writing raw with potential. I can live with that. I would have liked to be a pro without practise, but I'm not sure thats possible. So now I am learning and practising.

Wow I babble when foruming.

My question is, how many times do you redraft? I seem to want to make changes every damn time I reread the novel. The novel changes with my mood. Ive changed the first part (around 50k words) over what seems like a 1000 times (counting smaller changes like the odd sentence rejig). Will I ever be happy? Have you any advice as to when to stop, and admit that changing it will only make it worse? They say an artists work is never finished (dont ask who 'they' are, I couldnt tell you)... but what is the surefire sign that signifies you are 'happy' with the writing you have produced?

Apologies for the lengh of the question, but context is key to inducing good response ;)
 
I stopped counting the number of drafts on my first novel"* at six or seven. Some people will write three or four novels before they finally write something publishable. I put all of that effort into one. I don't think it matters, so long as you pay your dues in time and words written (counting major revisions).

I should mention that this was in the days before I had a computer. I couldn't drive myself crazy obsessing over minor details. When I wrote a new draft, it incorporated all the little changes that would have slipped in between drafts had I been using a computer. It did teach me to be ruthless about cutting out large portions that weren't working, rethinking them, and writing those parts over from scratch, not to mention all the changes that would be necessary to bring the rest of the book into line with the rewritten parts -- since I had to retype everything anyway.

Anyway, it paid off, since I sold the book to a publisher very quickly. Could I have done so if I had stopped one or two drafts earlier? Naturally, I will never know the answer to that question. But I am sure there were things I cut out near the end that I would be cringing over now if they were in print.


*By which I mean the first novel I was really serious about finishing. The first one that I did complete to my satisfaction.
 
So were you 'completely' happy with your final first novel? the first one you published... or are there things, when you re read it after it was published or even now that you would change?
 
Well, you have to remember that nothing is perfect. You are right about redrafting being a killer, but the true frustration is knowing what sounds weak in your work but not knowing what could strengthen it. I've had to let too many pieces go by the wayside because I don't know how to improve anything....I think I'd be best off as a poet and perhaps coauthoring. *sigh* I think I can come up with basic rough ideas, but I lack the polish.
 
Twenty-one years later, there are a lot of things I would change. I'm not the same person, let alone the same writer, that I was when I wrote it. But I was satisfied with the book when it was published.
 
Im doing the same at the moment... although i did about 118k words for first novel without really adding description so now im setting scenes and adding it where needed rather than the other way around.

TE - although you never had a computer this could have been a blessing in disguise; for i would imagine that scanning over words on a computer would make me more lazy compared to if i had to re wite it from scratch. Plus that would take another level of determination... makes me want to pen to paper, but am i brave enough?
 
You will likely drive yourself nuts trying to make it 'perfect.' It helps, at least in my own experience, to abandon this notion of perfection, and simply be content with doing the best you can at the time. Inevitably you will look back on earlier work and wish some things were different. That's natural, and it is a sign of growth, or that your aesthetic tastes have changed.
 
So say I have drafted a version I am content with, but then two months later I want to change alot of it and then some weeks later I want to change it again, do I just keep changing and changing it until I do not want to change it much anymore? will that point ever come?
 
I wrote my first draft in 2006, and was very happy with it. (Now I look back embarrassed at how bad it was...). Went the same route as you, and then got professional input. Rewrote it at least 9 times in the next three years. Then joined a writers' group, and rewrote chapter by chapter. Then won an auction for Patrick Rothfuss to critique and edit it (which was phenomenal and it's on a thread here somewhere...) and did another rewrite after that. I had two major agents request the whole thing, and both liked it a lot but didn't love it enough to take it on. So there are more re-writes ahead...

Boring, I know, because I repeat this one fairly often, but: James Michener said 'I'm not a very good writer, but I'm an excellent re-writer'.

Sums it up pretty well, I guess. I'm trying to be an excellent re-writer.:)
 
So say I have drafted a version I am content with, but then two months later I want to change alot of it and then some weeks later I want to change it again, do I just keep changing and changing it until I do not want to change it much anymore? will that point ever come?
It depends on how big the changes are, I suppose. Really large additions or deletions, or dramatically altering the story structure, I can't imagine happening more than a few times. But there's probably a good reason behind edits of that size.

On the other hand, if the edits are small -- changing a word or a sentence here and there -- then it's probably done, and you're just nitpicking. At that point it's best to move on to something new.
 
Now im getting it. Make major changes until I am happy (makes sense), but do not nitpick. Got you, thanks.
 
Now im getting it. Make major changes until I am happy (makes sense), but do not nitpick. Got you, thanks.


You can nitpick as you go along, if you're just editing, on a daily basis, but the story's the thing - get the first draft done and then look back again... and again.... and again...
(and see the thread 'Lacking in Detail' - some excellent words by The Judge.)
 
I love redrafting. I love it when I come across a scene I haven't read in ages, the words fit perfectly and I remember why I spend ten times as long re-reading. Neil Gaiman has some great quotes that apply:

"Write your story as it needs to be written. Write it honestly and tell it as best you can. I'm not sure that there are any other rules. Not ones that matter."

"I don't know if proud is the right word, but I am somebody who does not, on the whole, have the highest regard for my own stuff in that when I look all I get to see are the flaws."




 
Do any of you find a point where you feel that the re-drafting just isn't work it anymore and you should be putting all the energy and effort into writing a different, new story?

Or do you just feel that you just can't let go of some stories?
 
Do any of you find a point where you feel that the re-drafting just isn't work it anymore and you should be putting all the energy and effort into writing a different, new story?

Or do you just feel that you just can't let go of some stories?

I think that if i did that then i would just come full circle and end up having to re edit the second book. That would leave me with two books un polished. Unless you can get it damn near perfect first time :O
 
It's a hard one. I find that I'm in a state of constant re-drafting, but I can see that it is getting better and better as I go. These are substantive story elements and absolutely necessary. However, at other times, as I fine-tooth-comb my wip, I find it can be discouraging when I think a scene is finished and then I see other ways to improve it. Is that because I am training myself to be a better writer with every word I read and write? Quite possibly. However, my wip is constantly improving, so I don't think I have chronic edititis. The energy drain is sometimes a discouraging element, but I just keep telling myself I'm improving.

Secondly, I couldn't let go of this even if I wanted to. I might put it in the drawer and focus on soemthing else, but once I have started something I just keep coming back to it, whether it is a novel or a short story. Every time I read my work I change at least something.

I suppose the aim is to come up with something I am happy to put my name to and send into the wide world. Could something be improved? Always. However, a point must be reached where one is happy to sign off on it and be published, or else nobody will ever see it...and unless you're Gorge Lucas, we can't go back and make changes to our published work...
 
Do any of you find a point where you feel that the re-drafting just isn't work it anymore and you should be putting all the energy and effort into writing a different, new story?

Yes, quite often. Sometime I have to do the redrafting (all authors either know how to do this, or should know), other times I know it's just not going to work. It's not a science. You have to have a subconscious voice in your head - more often it's a vague feeling - and you have to listen to that voice/feeling. Fortunately, writing novels isn't a science; if it was it'd be very boring for all concerned...
 
Have you ever tried nitpicking a story that wasn't your own? It totally sucks the fun out of reading the story so I don't recommend trying it with something you haven't already read. But if you were to nitpick your favorite book, I'm pretty sure you would find a lot of "imperfections," especially if you copy and pasted it into a word program and read it in a way you could easily make changes to it.

Something I got into the habit of doing only recently: reviewing more read-only files (like pdfs and epubs) of my story. Ideally, you want to work on paper as much as possible, but that gets expensive. I found I track down mistakes I never even noticed on the hard copy when I read it on my Nook and my phone. That way I'm less likely to nitpick because it's such a pain in the neck getting up, going back to my computer, finding the mistake a second time, changing it, re-saving it to my Dropbox, making copies, etc. So try exporting to .pdf; you'll probably see it in a whole new light. When the cursor isn't blinking at you, you forget that it's your own story and you have the power to make changes... unless an issue is really glaring.

My logic is most of the writers who influenced me wrote on typewriters, often under tight deadlines, and I don't think they changed every little thing that bugged them (like Teresa seems to be suggesting). Yet their work doesn't seem lousy just because they didn't nitpick as much as we can today. Although it's at odds with the advice from writers I've never heard of, it seems to me many of the writers I love (Asimov, Ellison, Pohl, Bester, PKD) actually wrote more than they rewrote. I think Heinlein said to refrain from rewriting unless an editor asks... sure, it's a different time, but I don't think many people look at his stories and say, "Gee, I wish he had nitpicked more." (Just for the record, I'm not a huge Heinlein fan.)

I say work on the next story. It's good to let the current one sit for a while. Come back to it when you have learned more. And if you never come back to it... so what? That only means you got better. Personally, I've learned not to over-think anything when it comes to writing. I can't remember one time over-thinking anything had a good outcome.
 
My logic is most of the writers who influenced me wrote on typewriters, often under tight deadlines, and I don't think they changed every little thing that bugged them (like Teresa seems to be suggesting). Yet their work doesn't seem lousy just because they didn't nitpick as much as we can today. Although it's at odds with the advice from writers I've never heard of, it seems to me many of the writers I love (Asimov, Ellison, Pohl, Bester, PKD) actually wrote more than they rewrote.


Yes, many writers who wrote in the days of typewriters did produce fine work on short deadlines. Whether they were forced to pass over things that bothered them, in order that they might meet those deadlines, or whether they had learned their craft so well that they were able to produce work that satisfied them without the necessity of writing numerous drafts (as a writer less experienced and skilled would need to do in order to produce work of similar quality) ... that's another matter. But the truth is that many of those same writers wrote, along with the good books we remember today, any number of books that were so mediocre (or worse) that they are mercifully forgotten. This, along with all of the trunk novels some of them wrote while they were learning their craft, bad books that were never published at all. And, of course, the pseudonymous potboilers some of them wrote on even shorter deadlines in order to support themselves in the intervals between working on the books that really mattered to them.

So the question is: How many bad books would each of us be willing to write before finally writing one that is good enough to be published and fondly remembered, or would we rather work on fewer books and try to make each one the best that it can be? For each writer the answer will be a different one, and either way may lead to success ... or failure ... depending on talent, luck, the ability to keep learning from each new effort, and dedication. Even the best books may never be published if the timing isn't right, and even mediocre books may be published and even, perhaps, successful, if the timing is perfect. But with the books that are never published, or if published never find favor with readers, how do we know if this was because of poor timing or because we stopped one draft short of the book that would have been successful? We can't know. All we can know is whether we had set high standards for ourselves and did everything in our power at the time to try and meet them.

And here is another thing to consider: Back when we were all writing our books on typewriters, it took an immense amount of dedication even to write a bad book and finish it. As a result, the number of books being written at all were fewer. There was less competition, and along with that, there were editors willing to work for months or years helping a writer to polish something that was rough but showed promise. Now that just about every living person on planet Earth has access to a computer and word processing program, the number of novels being produced each year is stupendous. Some of those books will be so bad, they can't really be counted as competition. Others will be mediocre, but the writer will, either by luck or inspiration, have latched on to an idea that hits just exactly the right chord with the public at that moment in time, so that the flaws won't matter. And other books, or course, will be very, very good.

The books in those last two categories are our competition. I've said this many times before (so those who have been there when I said it, please bear with me): We can never depend on writing that lucky book that is the one the public is secretly longing for. To hang our hopes on writing that book is not realistic. Realistically, we need to write books that can compete with the very best. And those very best books are not going to be novels where the writers left things in that bothered them because they didn't think it was worth their time to go back and fix them. Those books are going to be highly polished.

That is the reality in the 21st century. And since we are writing our books in the 21st century, we need to be aware of those realities and not look for career advice to writers who established themselves more than half a century ago.

I think Heinlein said to refrain from rewriting unless an editor asks

But there, you see, is one of the differences between then and now. When a book is submitted by a debut author and the book needs work, the editor almost certainly won't ask. The editor will just reject the book, usually without commenting on where it needs work. If a new writer makes a practice of waiting for an editor to ask before doing revisions, he or she is likely to be kept waiting forever.
 
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