Time-overlap between POV sections

[HareBrain]

I have issues with overlapping POV sections, and I wonder what everyone else thinks about these and how they handle them in their own work.

As an example, take two consecutive sections. In the first, the POV is Tashi, the disciple of a monk. His master prepares for, and then enters, a trance-state in which he wishes to find the location of the magician they are hunting. Tashi watches over him to call him out of the trance at any sign of trouble. At one point Tashi is distracted and leaves their tent for a few minutes. When he returns, his master has been pulled into a ‘dark-flight’ state from which he can’t be awakened, and the section ends.

In the other section, the main female character, Cass, goes to the magician’s camp. During their conversation, the magician seems to sense that something elsewhere requires his attention, and leaves her. Cass then talks to others and leaves the camp.

Whichever order I put these two sections in, the start of the second will go back to some time before the end of the first, but there is no way for the reader to know this except with hindsight. Having the Tashi section first makes it obvious what the magician is doing in Cass’s section; having the Cass section first makes it immediately obvious what has happened to the monk.

But is the time-overlap itself an issue? As a reader, when a change of POV (and location) takes place in a novel, do you assume that the start of the new section takes place after the end of the previous one, or do you keep an open mind about that until you have evidence?

 

[Hex]

As a reader, I'd say I would probably default to thinking the POV sections follow on from each other rather than overlapping, but it wouldn't take much of a cue to change my mind. I think the point I'm trying to make, though, is that I would like some clue if you can provide it.

 

[Arkose]

Doesn't the Lord of the Rings do this same thing 3 different ways? Frodo and Sam, the other two hobbits and the ents, Aragorn and company. Each gets its own chapter and suppose to be happening for the most part the exact same time.

I guess I could see a problem though if you do this only for one scene.

I am not sure what is the best thing to do, I would hope though that I keep an open mind most of the time.

 

[ctg]

It depends on how you execute it, and at first I would advice you to write it all out so that you as a writer know who's doing what and when. Now when it comes to time to time them together, you need to decide who's starting and as you spell it out, you might want to do POV shifting (in lose terms) to give the reader a full picture, or as you very well know, leave much of it out and assume that the reader can figure out what happened. If you choose the latter option then use your wits, like in your example, if the monk comes into the dreamstate, you leave what happens there out and just continue with the other two POV's and when you come back, you use dialogue to drop in the information.

However, if you don't want to do that, and you think that the reader needs to see all three POV's then decide the points that are common to all of them. And you then use these points to clear any confusion that might otherwise drop in the prose.

So, don't be afraid to write it all out and then refine it with a clever trickery.

 

[RJM Corbet]

I have issues with overlapping POV sections, and I wonder what everyone else thinks about these and how they handle them in their own work.

As an example, take two consecutive sections. In the first, the POV is Tashi, the disciple of a monk. His master prepares for, and then enters, a trance-state in which he wishes to find the location of the magician they are hunting. Tashi watches over him to call him out of the trance at any sign of trouble. At one point Tashi is distracted and leaves their tent for a few minutes. When he returns, his master has been pulled into a ‘dark-flight’ state from which he can’t be awakened, and the section ends.

In the other section, the main female character, Cass, goes to the magician’s camp. During their conversation, the magician seems to sense that something elsewhere requires his attention, and leaves her. Cass then talks to others and leaves the camp.

Whichever order I put these two sections in, the start of the second will go back to some time before the end of the first, but there is no way for the reader to know this except with hindsight. Having the Tashi section first makes it obvious what the magician is doing in Cass’s section; having the Cass section first makes it immediately obvious what has happened to the monk.

But is the time-overlap itself an issue? As a reader, when a change of POV (and location) takes place in a novel, do you assume that the start of the new section takes place after the end of the previous one, or do you keep an open mind about that until you have evidence?

Hare, I tried that and I can tell you now, if it's part of your intro first few pages, you're likely to have trouble.

From my experience it may be ok later on, when you have earned the reader's confidence and he/she has made a commitment to the story -- but even then you need to tread carefully and tell the reader exactly what you're doing, mate. But in the intro, they won't like it much at all.

It's different in a movie, where the audience is captive and passive, and simply react to the images on the screen. Also a movie lasts a couple of hours, so the viewer is prepared to invest that long and if it's time wasted, well no great loss.

Reading a book takes much longer, and the reader has to turn the pages. This is really true.

Be careful about timeline in the intro. I suggest you try to solve the problem somehow, rather than hoping the reader will stay with you to work it out.

 

[alchemist]

I don't think I'd be bothered about the overlap, but the easiest thing is to have a clue, like a camel wanders into camp and collapses dead. Put it in both scenes and you have a reference point.

 

[HareBrain]

Like this?

‘Master!’ said Tashi, shaking the monk’s frail shoulders. ‘Wake up, wake —’

His heart jumped into his throat and stopped his words, as from far away over the humid island air came the unmistakeable thud of a humped quadruped hitting the dust.

…

‘I would talk with you longer, my dear,’ said the sorceror, twirling his mustaches, ‘but I have to answer a call of super-nature, bwahah.’

‘Wait,’ said Cass, ‘aren’t you going to do anything with that camel?’

‘Hardly,’ said the fiend. ‘It looks likely to collapse soon anyway.’

Cass stood around, waiting. Three minutes and twenty-eight seconds later, the magician was proved right.

Thanks for the comments so far. This example comes quite late in the novel. There are no time-overlaps for the first several chapters, and then only one every few chapters until the end, when the nature of the story means they become more common. So by this stage I'll hopefully not have put people off by the first occurrence, and they will be open to the idea that they happen.

I appreciate the desirability of clues, i.e. common experiences between the two POVs, but in this (and other) examples I can't think of any. They are separated by some distance; no one has a timepiece; there's nothing that can be heard from both locations, e.g. the passing-by of the 8:43 stopping service. Introducing something like an exploding volcano in the distance would seem to be a little excessive.

Anyone else found this problem when writing?

 

[alchemist]

But is the time-overlap itself an issue? As a reader, when a change of POV (and location) takes place in a novel, do you assume that the start of the new section takes place after the end of the previous one, or do you keep an open mind about that until you have evidence?

Assuming you're not going with the excellently-written camel episode, I don't think the overlap is an issue. Many novels have finales where different POVs occur concurrently, e.g.

Tom sees the flying saucer land.
***
Ann sees the flying saucer land.
***
Tom gets shot by aliens
***
Ann runs away from other aliens

This is quite acceptable, and you can't tell the difference between a complete overlap, or one of a few minutes.

 

[Chaoticheart]

Honestly, if they're separated by a fairly large distance, just write the scenes and don't attempt to match up the times. If eventually the characters from the parallel time-scenes meet, then the readers should gain a general idea that what happened to a was happening at the same time as what happened to b.

When I'm reading and there's a pov and locale change, I tend to assume it is parallel unless the evidence clearly suggests otherwise.

uggh @ having to rewrite posts due to exhaustion. Damn my sporadic train of thought! OK now im going to bed.

edit: actually, since you said that there are only a few parallel scenes it may not work. Then again if there are two different paths being taken is it really necessary that the reader know these scenes happen at exactly the same time?

and I apologize if I'm not making much sense at the moment. CBF organizing my thoughts into a coherent strain. Also wtf I had to respell almost every word I typed in this post :O

and I'm not drunk, just tired!

 

[RJM Corbet]

Well, there you can introduce the second POV thus:

At around the same time as this was happening (or shortly before/shortly after, etc), but on the other side of the island (or the hill or wherever), the sorceror twirled his mustaches: "I would talk with you longer, my dear, but I have to ... bwahah."

There's no need then for 'he said' after introducing the speech with a colon, because there's no doubt about who's talking?

But anyway, if this is later into the novel, when the reader is acclimatized, it shouldn't need even that much explanation, because one also has to take care not to insult the reader's intelligence.

It's quite a fine line.

 

[Ursa major]

I don't think that the time overlap is a problem. If it was, we'd be in trouble if any interesting scenes (and we don't have any other sort in our manuscripts, I hope) happened to be, in part, simultaneous.

What can be a problem (to me as a reader, at any rate) is providing a resolution to something that later in the text is the culmination of something you want the reader to invest their emotions in. So if you the reader sees X avoiding being executed, it rather destroys the tension in a later scene whereby Y is hoping to prevent that very same execution. (I suppose it's less of a problem where the reader doesn't know X is the subject of the Y's plans, but even then, the reader may feel that they've been unfairly tricked and that the author has been two clever by half.) Then again, you sometimes see books where the author has written something along the lines of:

Joe Bloggs avoided the guillotine by the skin of his teeth. His first lucky break came as the gaoler delivered what was meant to be his last meal....

Even this can work, although I don't really like seeing it unless the author does something really clever, completely subverting my expectations. I'm not sure that many authors are clever enough to pull this off, though.

 

[RJM Corbet]

While we're here, I don't like 'heart jumped into his mouth'. It's a cliche that could be replaced by something more original?

 

[Ursa major]

...while remembering that this is a family-friendly site (just in case our imaginations run away with us)....

​

 

[HareBrain]

While we're here, I don't like 'heart jumped into his mouth'. It's a cliche that could be replaced by something more original?

But you're happy with the nefarious magician twirling his mustaches?

Now I think about it, spinning his bow tie might be better.

Oh, I forgot this:

Well, there you can introduce the second POV thus:

At around the same time as this was happening (or shortly before/shortly after, etc), but on the other side of the island (or the hill or wherever), the sorceror twirled his mustaches: "I would talk with you longer, my dear, but I have to ... bwahah."

This is a useful way of getting round it with an omniscient-style narrator. Sadly, aiming for a close third-person POV makes this impossible.

 

[The Judge]

I'm with Hex in that my default position is consecutive scenes occur consecutively. If, instead, they are meant to be running concurrently, then it helps if clues are given early on in the scene.

If the early clues just aren't feasible because of the needs of the plot -- and the absence of sky-diving ungulates -- but you feel it is important the reader understands that the scenes are happening simultaneously, then you just have to make the thing that links the two scenes happen as early as possible and the linkage must be as clear as possible.

When I have two (or more) continuing scenes which are happening at the same time then, when I can, I cut back and forth like a demented barber, rather than have the first scene play out in full to its otherwise natural ending. I say "when I can" because sometimes that isn't possible without disrupting the flow of the chapter or breaking tension. But it might be worth experimenting.

When it comes to it, most readers are accommodating, especially late on in the book. So if there's no other way around it, and the overlaps are only of a few minutes, then they'll cope.

And in this particular instance I'd say it has to be Tashi's scene first and the magician/Cass second, unless you cut when Tashi goes outside for a few minutes, so it's Tashi-Cass-Tashi-Cass (which admittedly may become very messy...).

 

[Oxman]

I had the exact same problem with overlapping POVs in my current WIP. Even worse, mine occurs very near to the beginning of the novel. I’ve dealt with it in the best way I can, and it seems to work for me, though others might disagree...
Basically, I have a battle viewed by a cavalryman, waiting for his infantry to break the ranks of the opposing side. We see events unfold from the cavalryman’s perspective, including his charge when the opportunity arises. THEN, I switch to the POV of an infantryman, already in the fray...
As the reader, we know the infantry are driven back, but the arrival of the cavalry causes the enemy to eventually break and retreat. So, won’t the infantryman’s perspective be a little predictable and redundant? Hopefully not. There’s no interaction between the cavalryman and infantryman, so the reader isn’t sure if the infantryman gets wounded, even though his unit – as a whole – is rescued. I’d like to think this keeps the reader hooked, as well as once the overlap is over, the story is carried forward by this new perspective. Of course, others might think this is completely unnecessary.
Rather than have the switch between POV’s feel jarring, I’ve put the infantryman’s perspective at the point where the POV’s change. Then, I’ve used a flashback technique, bringing it back to the present. I think it works (in this very rough draft I’ve included):

POV(1): ...

the order came to charge again.

#​

POV(2):Boris, bent double, wheezed heavily, his hands on his knees. Thank the Gods, he thought, trying not to be sick. His jack felt tight on him and he stood and fumbled at the buckles on his side, to loosen the restricting, padded shirt.
It had started well enough. Watching the enemy tumble from a shower of arrows, he had sprinted forward to meet them, surprised at how firm the sand felt under his feet...

 

[RJM Corbet]

But you're happy with the nefarious magician twirling his mustaches?

Now I think about it, spinning his bow tie might be better.

Oh, I forgot this:



This is a useful way of getting round it with an omniscient-style narrator. Sadly, aiming for a close third-person POV makes this impossible.

Sorry, I missed the point there, that you have used the camel as a time link. It works fine, that's quite ok.

Anyway, it shouldn't be a problem, if the reader has come this far with you.

This isn't crits, you're asking for comments in a particular area, not for everyone to go through it with a (fine tooth comb) nano-sieve ...

 

[MstrTal]

I was wondering about this as well on a piece I was working on and have since scrapped. One solution I came up with was that since both scenes where set in relatively the same geographic setting to use subtle environmental clues. Having the characters notice the position of the sun, time of day, how the weather is starting to turn or how they do not like the sudden onset of rain and or noticing a particularly odd shaped bolt of lightning. I may be off base but to my mind even though the scenes are separated by location some sort of concurring event witnessed or experienced by the characters simultaneously, though from their own perspectives, establishes a parallel timeline.

 

[RJM Corbet]

I was wondering about this as well on a piece I was working on and have since scrapped. One solution I came up with was that since both scenes where set in relatively the same geographic setting to use subtle environmental clues. Having the characters notice the position of the sun, time of day, how the weather is starting to turn or how they do not like the sudden onset of rain and or noticing a particularly odd shaped bolt of lightning. I may be off base but to my mind even though the scenes are separated by location some sort of concurring event witnessed or experienced by the characters simultaneously, though from their own perspectives, establishes a parallel timeline.

I just think the main thing is not to make the reader have to do the work -- that's the writer's job. Once you have the reader's confidence he/she MAY make an effort to follow, but not early in the book. If it's too difficult the reader is likely to just put it aside, unless stranded with not much to read. Its sad, but its true ...

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

As a reader, when a change of POV (and location) takes place in a novel, do you assume that the start of the new section takes place after the end of the previous one, or do you keep an open mind about that until you have evidence?

As a reader, I keep an open mind. I do assume that there is no large gap in time between the scenes (unless told otherwise), but I wait to see whether the scenes overlap or one follows soon after the other.

At some point, though, I'm going to need clues as to which one it is, or I can get very confused.

I am speaking of POV shifts in a single storyline. If there are subplots playing out with characters as yet unknown to the characters in the main plot, I make no assumptions at all about when things are happening relative to everything else.