More description-y whatsit

[Mouse]

How's the description in this segment? This happens before the other two pieces I posted. (Yes, I'm dithering about editing bits I've already written rather than getting on and writing more of the damn thing...)

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Berenger saddled his blue gelding, tightened the girth and adjusted the stirrups. He thanked the boy holding the horse’s head, gave him a silver coin and dismissed him.

Down the road, at a crossing point where the streets joined, an Elani man was cooking something over a huge metal barrel and calling out to passers-by.

Berenger could smell onions stronger than anything else and had no desire to offer the man his custom.

He mounted his horse and turned the animal the other way. There, in front of him, stood a white mare and her rider cloaked in black.

Berenger clicked his tongue and moved his horse forward, passing the rider. He did not speak.

The street led to a square, a large open area surrounded by buildings, where a market was taking place. There were stalls in rows across the square and both the Elani and the Lamya sold their wares.

Berenger could see stalls selling fabric, jewellery, leathers, weapons, woodwork and stonework. He could see no food produce but he could smell a hog roasting.

It will attract dragons, he thought. He put his heels to his horse and moved forwards.

“No horses here, sir, begging your pardon,” cried a rather portly Lamya man, rounding his stall to confront Berenger. “No horses in the square on market day.”

“I wasn’t aware of the rules,” Berenger said, making no apology.

The Lamya gave a nervous laugh. “Well, and begging your pardon, sir, but can you see any other horses here? No sir. No horses.”

Berenger looked back over his shoulder. In the shadows between two buildings stood Fagan mounted on his white charger.

The Lamya followed his gaze. “Not in the square see, sir,” he said.

“I see,” agreed Berenger, edging his horse forwards.

“Wait!” cried the Lamya. “No horses, I said!”

Berenger took a leather pouch from his trouser pocket and dangled it over the side of his horse. “I’m just passing through,” he said. “Will you clear a path for me?”

“Ah, now if you’re just passing through then I’m sure that’s ok, sir, and begging your pardon if I’ve caused any offense,” said the Lamya, taking Berenger’s pouch and stowing it away inside his jacket.

He moved in front of the horse and started noisily directing people to move aside. Berenger followed.

Back across the square, the horse and her rider left the shadows and disappeared back into the town.

 

[Boneman]

Have you moved? Did it go alright? Or is it upcoming?

So the description. Have we seen this city, this town, this square and this market before? Because you refer to 'a' square, 'a' market, rather than 'the' square etc.

How's the description in this segment? This happens before the other two pieces I posted. (Yes, I'm dithering about editing bits I've already written rather than getting on and writing more of the damn thing...)

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Berenger saddled his blue gelding, tightened the girth and adjusted the stirrups. He thanked the boy holding the horse’s head, gave him a silver coin and dismissed him.that's very generous of him - a silver piece. Or is it a 10p? And since you're asking about description, I'm happy with you moving the action on so quickly, although a lot does happen. You could always just have Berenger mount the horse and flick a coin to the boy, unless it's relevant that he does it all himself?

Down the road, at a crossing point where the streets joined, an Elani man was cooking something over a huge metal barrel and calling out to passers-by. Says who? Sounds like the narrator... but the next bit puts it firmly in Berenger's pov. Maybe combine both bits? Berenger grimaced at the smell of onions the Elani man was cooking. He had no desire to give him any custom, and turned his horse the other way as he mounted. Not sure the exact location of the Elani barrel is relevant, but maybe it is...

Berenger could smell onions stronger than anything else and had no desire to offer the man his custom.

He mounted his horse and turned the animal the other way.

There, in front of him, stood a white mare and her rider cloaked in black. I'm not sure exactly how far in front, and I feel the mare and rider are both cloaked in black... Maybe 'with' her rider cloaked in black' And I was a little confused that Fagan sat on a white charger, thought maybe this was he, when I got to it. Can mares be chargers? More later on that...

Berenger clicked his tongue and moved his horse forward, passing the rider. He did not speak. Then leave it out... or tell us that he he had no need to speak, didn't want to speak, etc.

The street led to a square, a large open area surrounded by buildings,that's what squares usually are where a market was taking place. There were stalls in rows across the square and both the Elani and the Lamya sold their wares.
Erm, are you looking for more description, or less? Because if you just want to concentrate on Berenger and the action, then you could combine these two paras. The street led to the square where the market was taking place. Elani and Lamya stalls selling everything from fabric to stonework spread in rows across the square. Berenger could smell a hog roasting. Don't need to tell us he can't see it, this way...

Berenger could see stalls selling fabric, jewellery, leathers, weapons, woodwork and stonework. He could see no food produce but he could smell a hog roasting.

It will attract dragons, he thought. He put his heels to his horse and moved forwards. Like this line... focuses us really well.

“No horses here, sir, begging your pardon,” cried a rather portly Lamya man, rounding his stall to confront Berenger. “No horses in the square on market day.”

“I wasn’t aware of the rules,” Berenger said, making no apology.

The Lamya gave a nervous laugh. “Well, and begging your pardon, sir, but can you see any other horses here? No sir. No horses.”This interaction between the two is excellent...

Berenger looked back over his shoulder. In the shadows between two buildings stood Fagan mounted on his white charger. See confusion above. I assume we've already met Fagan, but maybe just change the colour of the horse, or leave it out altogether. And to place it more in Berenger's pov, maybe Berenger looked back over his shoulder at Fagan sitting/mounted on his charger in the shadows between two buildings.

The Lamya followed his gaze. “Not in the square see, sir,” he said.

“I see,” agreed Berenger, edging his horse forwards.

“Wait!” cried the Lamya. “No horses, I said!”

Berenger took a leather pouch from his trouser pocket and dangled it over the side of his horse. “I’m just passing through,” he said. “Will you clear a path for me?”

“Ah, now if you’re just passing through then I’m sure that’s ok, sir, and begging your pardon if I’ve caused any offense,” said the Lamya, taking Berenger’s pouch and stowing it away inside his jacket. So good,the way you've handled this - one of your real strengths, I think.

He moved in front of the horse and started noisily directing people to move aside. Berenger followed.

Back across the square, the horse and her rider left the shadows and disappeared back into the town.Which is okay of you want the narrator to tell us, but switch t to berenger's pov, if you want him to see it.

Nothing else to say. If you look at the section between Berenger and the 'rather portly lamya' man , you can see how good your descriptive bits can be. You've said so much, in that section, by saying so little, yet I have a really clear picture of the Lamya man and Berenger - the way they act, what they think,the way they feel, the sense of intrigue by mentioning Fagan, and then at the end, the white mare going. I think it might be better if Berenger sees it, but perhaps that doesn't fit with your story.

Good stuff, Mouse...

 

[Mouse]

Gah, I suck at writing! Cheers, Boneman. Yeah I find characters, dialogue, all that sort of stuff easy, but describing buildings and that really difficult! I keep stalling in the story whenever I get to something like that.

Yeah, it's not a new town/market/square so I don't think I need to describe it too much. Fagan and the white horse are characters who've been in it from book one, so can't change... But Fagan's gone a bit loopy and is currently sort of stalking Berenger, who's trying to ignore him.

I'm not sure exactly how far in front, and I feel the mare and rider are both cloaked in black... Maybe 'with' her rider cloaked in black'

Yep, as soon as I read it back through after posting I realised it read like both the horse and rider were wearing black! Dipstick. Ta, I'll change that bit.

Note to self: the word is 'descriptive' not description-y.

edit: Ooh. No, not moved yet! It was supposed to be this Friday, but it's all gone a bit weird...

 

[Boneman]

Yeah I find characters, dialogue, all that sort of stuff easy, but describing buildings and that really difficult! I keep stalling in the story whenever I get to something like that.

QUOTE]

You are not alone, believe me... I spend hours staring at a blank screen searching for words to describe the cities/building/rooms. The best help is to google 'medieval building/castle/square' and choose 'images'. Then it's easier to describe what you see, rather than what you're trying to invent. I found an absolutely brilliant picture of an old city wall that was fortified, which was exactly what I wanted...

ps: how was the Chelsea flower show? Hayfever-free?

 

[Mouse]

That's what I do, Google pictures. And it does help (currently working with this for a tavern) but I find it makes me stall as I have to stop writing and go searching on the net... and then I get distracted.

(Hayfever free, but mostly because it was cold and wet and horrible! Good show though.)

 

[HareBrain]

I think the amount of description is about right, since the interest is what Berenger is doing and his interaction with the Lamya, not the niceties of the architecture. I do feel, though, that while this interaction is good, your first four paragraphs are a bit flabby. For example, tightening the girth and adjusting the stirrups are all a normal part of saddling a horse, so why include them? Since this beginning section only exists to get us to the interesting bit, I think you could condense it quite a lot. See below for example.

Berenger saddled his blue gelding, tightened the girth and adjusted the stirrups. He thanked the boy holding the horse’s head, gave him a silver coin and dismissed him.

Down the road, at a crossing point where the streets joined, an Elani man was cooking something over a huge metal barrel and calling out to passers-by.

Berenger could smell onions stronger than anything else and had no desire to offer the man his custom.

He mounted his horse and turned the animal the other way. There, in front of him, stood a white mare and her rider cloaked in black.

Here's my one-para version:

Berenger saddled his gelding, then paid a silver coin to the stable-boy, and mounted. In one direction was a crossroads where an Elani cook was at work over a huge metal barrel, calling out to passers-by. Berenger turned his horse away from the strong smell of onions, only to find in front of him a black-cloaked rider on a white mare.

 

[slack]

I came across a great piece of writing advice the other day. It said, simply, to run at the description. That means instead of prefacing the description with a conscious viewer -- a filter -- you should get to the point.

There were a couple times you did this prefacing -- when you wrote "Berenger could smell" and "Berenger could see". Instead, just get on with it: "The intense smell of onions choked the air, etc."; "Several stalls featured an array of brightly colored fabric, etc."

The idea is to avoid lessening the immediacy -- and impact -- of the description by not filtering it through the viewer.

Also, you need more active verbs. For example, "He thanked the boy holding the horse's head, [tossed a coin in his direction], [pressed a coin into his grubby hand], [flicked a coin at him], etc."

This will make the writing feel vibrant, energetic, and fresh.

Also,

Down the road, at a crossing point where the streets joined, an Elani man was cooking something over a huge metal barrel and calling out to passers-by.

We need to know what this something is. 'something' is so weak it might as well be invisible.

Best of luck with the revision.

 

[Hex]

Description is something I find outrageously difficult as well (which is why I haven't commented on any of your descriptiony bits - I was planning to comment on this one, but Boneman has left me nothing to say, right down to the onions and Berenger's reaction to them).

Part of my problem is that I rarely read description with much attention, so when the time comes to write it I really struggle. I have no difficulty imagining my places, but real problems describing them.

I was given some advice by a really nice novelist I stalked online for a while (Michelle Sagara). She said she sometimes needed to make her characters do something like clean the cathedral floor just so that she'd have a way of forcing herself to write description (I paraphrase, and probably mangle). I found that useful because I always find it easier to write description that has direct relevance to what my character is experiencing. Hence the switching of the sentence about the man shouting at passers-by/ the onions so that you're starting with something that's specific to your character - his reaction to the onions.

I hope that's slightly helpful.

 

[chrispenycate]

I suppose from horseback he would get a visual impression; I've never attempted to ride a horse through a market.

But, being a short-a***d little runt most of my impressions are auditory, or smells. After the onions he doesn't seem to notice the fragrances of the dyed cloth, new, recently tanned leather, tuned wood, more or less clean humans; only the cooking pig.

The "woodwork" I take to be small furniture and household tools (spatular, broom) rather than decorative; but what's the stonework? (and no pottery, pans or glass; things that need constant replacement. Probably another aisle).

 

[Ursa major]

That's what I do, Google pictures. And it does help (currently working with this for a tavern)....

I'm not an expert on modern inns, let alone ancient or fantasy ones, but I suspect they may have covered the floor with something to soak up spilt ale rather than leaving bare stone.

 

[Mouse]

I think the amount of description is about right, since the interest is what Berenger is doing and his interaction with the Lamya, not the niceties of the architecture. I do feel, though, that while this interaction is good, your first four paragraphs are a bit flabby. For example, tightening the girth and adjusting the stirrups are all a normal part of saddling a horse, so why include them?

It was for the flow... Will ponder changing, I like your adjusted para.

I came across a great piece of writing advice the other day. It said, simply, to run at the description. That means instead of prefacing the description with a conscious viewer -- a filter -- you should get to the point.

I kinda disagree with that. The viewer, or 'filter' is the character. A character's thoughts/feelings etc. are far more important/interesting to me than a flat description of what's around him. All right, I don't 'kinda' disagree. I do disagree. Sorry.

Down the road, at a crossing point where the streets joined, an Elani man was cooking something over a huge metal barrel and calling out to passers-by.

We need to know what this something is. 'something' is so weak it might as well be invisible.

Best of luck with the revision.

Ta muchly. Usually, I'd agree with you on the 'something' but Berenger's not a local, so really has no idea what's being cooked. Therefore 'something' from his POV is correct.

Description is something I find outrageously difficult as well (which is why I haven't commented on any of your descriptiony bits - I was planning to comment on this one, but Boneman has left me nothing to say, right down to the onions and Berenger's reaction to them).

Part of my problem is that I rarely read description with much attention, so when the time comes to write it I really struggle. I have no difficulty imagining my places, but real problems describing them.

I was given some advice by a really nice novelist I stalked online for a while (Michelle Sagara). She said she sometimes needed to make her characters do something like clean the cathedral floor just so that she'd have a way of forcing herself to write description (I paraphrase, and probably mangle). I found that useful because I always find it easier to write description that has direct relevance to what my character is experiencing. Hence the switching of the sentence about the man shouting at passers-by/ the onions so that you're starting with something that's specific to your character - his reaction to the onions.

I hope that's slightly helpful.

That makes sense. Thanks!

I suppose from horseback he would get a visual impression; I've never attempted to ride a horse through a market.

But, being a short-a***d little runt most of my impressions are auditory, or smells. After the onions he doesn't seem to notice the fragrances of the dyed cloth, new, recently tanned leather, tuned wood, more or less clean humans; only the cooking pig.

The "woodwork" I take to be small furniture and household tools (spatular, broom) rather than decorative; but what's the stonework? (and no pottery, pans or glass; things that need constant replacement. Probably another aisle).

I used to ride horses, and I'm a short arse... But you're right about the smells. I'm guessing he'd smell more than the pig.

As for 'stonework', you know, I have no idea. I had an idea when I wrote it but now... nothing. So I reckon I'll change that. Ta!

(And now I'm going to puzzle over what the hell I did mean by stonework!)

Ursa: I've gone for rugs in my inn, but I'm pondering changing it to furs. (Don't want hay!)

 

[The Judge]

Ursa: I've gone for rugs in my inn, but I'm pondering changing it to furs. (Don't want hay!)

More likely rushes -- textiles of any kind are expensive in pre-industrial societies, so even rag rugs would be something for a bedroom rather than a common pub. Furs are good for wearing, but I don't think they'd be very effective as floor coverings -- and cleaning them would be a pain. Besides, they'd again likely be expensive. Cow hide might be better, but not sheepskin -- though I imagine both would be used for clothes which are far more important. Rush mats are possible, but actually I think they might well leave the floor pretty bare, or with a sprinking of sawdust at the most. Spilt liquids (drink, blood, worse...) can be cleaned off stone tiles or the equivalent pretty easily. Or it could just be stamped earth, in which case the liquids would soak in.

 

[Mouse]

It's a stone floor, so do you reckon I should leave it bare? Or go for the rushes.

 

[The Judge]

Does it matter? I mean, if the POV character is used to pubs would he notice what the floor covering was? And what kind of pub are we talking about? Very rough and ready in the worst part of town? If so, then probably nothing on the floor since there's not a lot of cash to spend on it. If it's in a market place and trying to attract a better class of clientele, then perhaps rushes.

NB Just read a very interesting piece about how in the home the strewn rushes were much more likely to be rush mats, because of the problem of long dresses sweeping all the loose rushes everywhere, otherwise. Of course, no lady is going to be in a pub so that isn't necessarily a factor here.

I dunno, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to say bare stone. I was wondering about sawdust again (just as butchers' shops had until recently) but then I started to wonder how much sawdust was produced in an average village/town and whether it would be sold and how much it would cost... and I'm tying myself in knots here!

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Hi,

Usual do dahs


First off I think Slack has it right. The Berenger this and Berenger that is getting tiresome.

How's the description in this segment? This happens before the other two pieces I posted. (Yes, I'm dithering about editing bits I've already written rather than getting on and writing more of the damn thing...)

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Berenger saddled his blue gelding, tightened the girth and adjusted the stirrups. He thanked the boy holding the horse’s head, gave him a silver (way too much - Even in 2011, that's a king's ransom) coin and dismissed him. (I think wouldn't hurt to have a 'thankee mister' type line, just to break it up a bit)

Down the road, at a crossing point where the streets joined, an Elani man was cooking something ( a dead rat, or something we can get our teeth into) over (? in maybe or over a huge brazier maybe) a huge metal barrel and calling out to passers-by. (Just to pass the time of day?

His shouting would wake the dead: they would probably have lept at the foul smelling rancid meat. Berenger thought better of it and only managed to prevent himself retching up his breakfast by the presence of the garland stall strategically placed nearby. The girl selling them had nearly sold out and he suspected the two stallholders were related)

Berenger could smell onions stronger than anything else and had no desire to offer the man his custom.

He mounted his horse and turned the animal the other way. As he did so he couldn't help noticing a white mare; the rider dressed, all in black. At the time he thought nothing of it other than the heat of the day and the inappropriate garb. There, in front of him, stood a white mare and her rider cloaked in black.

Berenger clicked his tongue and moved his horse forward, passing the rider. He did not speak.

The street led to a square, a large open area surrounded by buildings, (I think we know what a square is) where a market was taking place. The stalls were arranged in what would have been neat rows earlier in the day. Now however, they had all suffered from the bustling attentions of the mass of customers. Goods were strewn across the stalls and some were piled high in the alleyways between. Traders seemed to be from a mix of There were stalls in rows across the square and both the Elani and the Lamya sold their wares.

Berenger could see stalls selling fabric, jewellery, leathers, weapons, woodwork and stonework. He could see no food produce but he could smell a hog roasting.

It will attract dragons, he thought. He put his heels to his horse and moved forwards. (seems unlikely, this seems to be a well established affair held regularly. If dragons were a threat they would be attracted to the smells of the men as much as the hog.)

“No horses here, sir, begging your pardon,” cried a rather portly Lamya man, rounding his stall to confront Berenger. “No horses in the square on market day.”

“I wasn’t aware of the rules,” Berenger said, making no apology. (sounds apologetic though - If you want indignant get him stuck into it with a vengence - Shut your peasant mouth or I'll have you flogged, you insolent dog)

The Lamya gave a nervous laugh. “Well, and begging your pardon, sir, but can you see any other horses here? No sir. No horses.”

Berenger looked back over his shoulder. In the shadows between two buildings stood Fagan mounted on his white charger.

The Lamya followed his gaze. “Not in the square see, sir,” he said.

“I see,” agreed Berenger, edging his horse forwards.

“Wait!” cried the Lamya. “No horses, I said!”

Berenger took a leather pouch from his trouser pocket and dangled it over the side of his horse. (doesn't read as though he's offering it as a reward - I think it would be better to throw a few gold pieces at the fellow) “I’m just passing through,” he said. “Will you clear a path for me?”

“Ah, now if you’re just passing through then I’m sure that’s ok, sir, and begging your pardon if I’ve caused any offense,” said the Lamya, taking Berenger’s pouch and stowing it away inside his jacket.

He moved in front of the horse and started noisily directing people to move aside. Berenger followed.

Back across the square, the horse and her rider left the shadows and disappeared back into the town. (how did it/they get to the other side of the square first? If there's a quicker way wouldn't he have gone that way too. Plus what's the point of going into the square if all he wants to do is see this person across the square?)

Hope I helped

TEiN

 

[J Riff]

Good one. I like 'It will attract Dragons'... of course...and 'offer the man his custom'
Stonework? What else would you call it?
Rockwork, pebblework, boulderwork..... .. )

 

[Cavalry]

Mouse and Boneman,

Been away for a while but always interested in equestrian stuff. Been working on my book...lots of horses in that.

If your caharcter had ridden the horse before its unlikley he would be adjusting the stirrups. The rest is fine, though for me a blue horse is fine but it provides less contrast to the rest of your fantasy - there already a host of horses of unusual colours.

It is not possible to sex a horse from the front and indeed not while on another horse - However a stallion will always detect a mare, if thats any help.

White horses in this world are called grey - do not ask me why...

Boneman - Chargers in the army were usually the best horses ridden by and bought by officers . They were usually called charges because they would go away from the other horses easliy ( when under pressure) or were brave enough to advance on the enemy. A charger would always be sold at a premium by a seller.

I have two chargers

Hope this helps.

Cav

 

[Mouse]

White horses in this world are called grey - do not ask me why...

It's because (if I remember rightly) greys have black skin. You can get white horses, with pink skin. They're albinos.