The King is Dead, Long Live the King!

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

So, here's a new little thread that I decided to put up.
The thing is that I had a conversation with a friend about how Robert was really a bad king, and that the Seven Kingdoms should have had a different king. We both agreed that Ned would have been a better choice, but I added the caveat that he would be too naive, too trusting. Then, my friend suggested Renly. He reasoned that Renly was loved by all, which I countered by saying that Renly was not a martial leader at all.

I would like to hear some of your voices in this. Who do you think would have been a good king of the Seven Kingdoms?

Would Tywin Lannister have been a good choice? Maybe you would've liked to see Stannis. Hey, maybe it was good as it was and you wanted to see Aerys sit out his time while Rhaegar was being groomed for kingship. So, who's first?

 

[summeriris]

So, here's a new little thread that I decided to put up.
The thing is that I had a conversation with a friend about how Robert was really a bad king, and that the Seven Kingdoms should have had a different king. We both agreed that Ned would have been a better choice, but I added the caveat that he would be too naive, too trusting. Then, my friend suggested Renly. He reasoned that Renly was loved by all, which I countered by saying that Renly was not a martial leader at all.

I would like to hear some of your voices in this. Who do you think would have been a good king of the Seven Kingdoms?

Would Tywin Lannister have been a good choice? Maybe you would've liked to see Stannis. Hey, maybe it was good as it was and you wanted to see Aerys sit out his time while Rhaegar was being groomed for kingship. So, who's first?

I think Tyrion would make a good king. Intelligent, brave and a wicked sense of humour. He also has compassion.

 

[Boaz]

Warning! There are a tremendous number of SPOILERS in my post.

Sy, as Stannis told Davos, it's not about whether someone wants to be king... it's about rights of inheritance. So is the conversation about anyone or only those from the Baratheon line of succession? It seems you'd like to include powerful lords in the discussion as well. I'm up for all of it...

But what makes a good king? I think we know the obvious traits that define a bad king. But what defines a good king? What should the Seven Kingdoms look like under a good king? Financial prosperity? National peace? Civil justice? Access to education? Lower taxes? Freedom of religion? Free speech? Abolition of slavery? Building the Wall? Free market economy? Bigger or smaller military? Healthcare?

Upon Robert's death the Seven Kingdoms were brought into another age of the Game of Thrones. Joffrey, Stannis, and Renly all claimed the throne for themselves. Joffrey and Renly are dead. Tommen has taken Joffrey's place while all of Renly's power was divided amongst Stannis and the Lannisters. Robb Stark and Balon Greyjoy proclaimed themselves kings of independent realms, yet both of them are now dead. The Kindom of the Iron Islands is now lead by Euron Greyjoy... with a possible minority under Queen Asha Greyjoy, but this is not definite... and the Kingdom of the North and the Riverlands might have completely dissolved back under Lannister leadership... with a chance that Robb's wife, Jeyne, is pregnant. There was also an unsuccessful coup attempted in Dorne to make Myrcella Baratheon Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. And the realm survived two potential invasions... one by Mance Rayder, King beyond the Wall, and one by Khal Drogo of the Dothraki. Drogo's plan was to seat his son upon the Iron Throne... his son by Daenerys Targaryen, daughter of the king deposed by Robert. Dany is still out there being courted as an ally or outright queen by both the Greyjoys and the Martells... if not also Lord Baelish, Lord Varys, and the Tyrells. Lord Baelish might also have a plan to form a breakaway combined Kingdom of the Vale, the Riverlands, and the North. But he most likely seems to be planning to rule the entire Seven Kingdoms as the power behind the throne. Oh... I almost forgot Aemon Targaryen. As a the eldest surviving son of King Maekar, Aemon was offered the crown once upon a time... Dany is his brother's son's son's daughter. But mayhaps his brother's son's son's son's son is still alive... his name would be Aegon... VI.

Did I mention everything? So who are the candidates as monarchs in this topic of "Who do you think would have been a good king of the Seven Kingdoms?

Assumed Baratheon line of succession: Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Stannis, Shireen, Renly.

Actual Baratheon line of succession: Robert, Stannis, Shireen, Renly.

Public Targaryen line of succession: Viserys, Daenerys.

Hidden Targaryen line of succession: Aegon, Viserys, Daenerys, Aemon.

Royal bastards: Gendry Waters, Edric Storm, Mya Stone.

Potential royal bastards: Jon Snow, Bella Rivers.

House Arryn: Jon, Robert.

House Greyjoy: Balon, Euron, Victarion, Aeron, Asha, Theon.

House Lannister: Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Kevan, Tygett.

House Martell: Doran, Arianne, Quentyn, Tristayne, Oberyn.

House Stark: Eddard, Robb, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Benjen.... Robb's unborn son.

House Tully: Hoster, Edmure, Brynden... Ed's unborn son.

House Tyrell: Mace, Willas, Garlan, Loras, Margaery.

Others: Littlefinger, Varys, Jeor, Mance, Tormund, Roose Bolton, Jon Umber, Lord Farwynd, Erik Ironbreaker, Dunstan Drumm, Walder Frey, Black Walder, Randyll Tarly, Mathis Rowan, Alester Florent, Axell Florent, Kevan Lannister, Khal Drogo, Khal Ogo, Khal Pono, Khal Jhaqo, Illyrio Mopatis...

I think this is a fairly comprehensive list of claimants, lords, powerful people, leaders, office holders, and capable men. I'll leave listing the qualities or vices of each of these characters for a later date... or for everyone else.

 

[The Imp]

Tywin Lannister is the sociopath that raised Cersei and Jaime, used gregro Clegane as his surrogate to rape, pillage, kill, loot, plunder, burn and intimidate, and who cared most about gold, not the good of the realm. Tywin would have been a strong king, but not a good one, at least not if you care about anyone other than upper nobility.

Although I dislike him, I think that Stannis would do a decent job. He'd be just, and would probably be strong enough to unite the seven ikingdoms.

Tyrion has already shown he can rule, and do a good job

Littlefinger loves Littlefinger too much.

I'd be fine with the current incarnation of Jaime ruling.

Just for fun, I'll throw someone out that i doubt will get much support, and is certainly quite inlikely. i think Varys would be a great king

 

[Needle]

SPOILERS BELOW







I wouldn't know where to begin here, so I won't! Boaz has given us a very comprehensive list to work with, I would add that we should stick to those remaining (just my thought don't know if that's what you wanted summeriris) that will eliminate Robert, Joffery, Renly, Viserys, Tywin, Eddard, Drogo and Hoster.

 

[Ursa major]

The trouble with Varys, TI, is that he has a very low seeding....


*cough*







(Sorry for the tennis talk, but Wimbledon is almost upon us. )

 

[Needle]

Just for fun, I'll throw someone out that i doubt will get much support, and is certainly quite inlikely. i think Varys would be a great king

Never would really thought about it, but you could be right! Varys has stated many times to several people that his goal is peace in the realm. And I think I believe him!

 

[Koopa]

Boaz that's quite a list.
still think you missed a few though
For instance the leader of the Golden Company, probably a descendant of one of the great Bastards.

 

[Boaz]

SPOILERS!

Ursa, with Varys' medical condition, I doubt he'll do any seeding in the future.

Kiwi, Young Griff, aka, baby Aegon, aka mayhaps the future Aegon VI is on the list. But, no doubt I've missed others.

How bad of a king was Robert? Militarily, he was undefeated. He overthrew the cruel and unjust Aerys II Targaren. He put down Balon Greyjoy's rebellion... he personally kept the Seven Kingdoms united.

Fiscally, Robert was atrocious. Not only was he inept, but he was apathetic about the Crown's finances. Even with a miracle worker as his Master of Coin, Robert plunged the realm into debt.

Robert's charisma is what held the contentious lords and power brokers in check. Their personal loyalty to him ensured their cooperation with each other... but it also made them blind to Robert's faults. Of Robert's Small Council, almost every member was personally beholden to him. Jon, the Hand, was Robert's foster father and mentor. Eddard, the second Hand, was Robert's closest friend, foster brother, brother in arms, almost brother in-law, and they engaged their children to be married. Stannis and Renly, the Master of Ships and the Master of Laws respectively, were Robert's brothers. Barristan, Varys, and Pycelle, had all served Aerys II... and only royal pardons from Robert kept their heads on their shoulders. Only Petyr Baelish got his appointment from someone else than Robert. Because they held their lands and titles directly from the King, these men were unable to reign in Robert's excesses. Robert spent lavishly; Robert whored nonstop; Robert beat his wife and eldest son... none of these men did anything to put a stop to his behavior. But mayhaps that is the nature of the game... if the King is your boss, your employer, your judge, your relative, and your executioner, then it is highly dangerous to upset him.

So would any of these men have made better kings than Robert? They were unable to positively influence him in matters of justice, the economy, border security, or international intrigue.

 

[devilsgrin]

Of the front runners still alive (as of AFFC) the most capable candidate to Rule AND LEAD the Seven Kingdoms (As painful as it is to admit), would almost certainly be Jon Snow. He does have all of Ned's flaws (the honour thing in particular), but Ned would have been a great king. Even Robert acknowledged he would have been a better king than him.

Several options could RULE well, Tyrion for instance, but he simply CANNOT LEAD men (the only loyalty anyone ever had to him was through his father's purse strings). Whilst I have always believed he lacked this ability, having watched Game of Thrones and actually seeing his stature, I cannot, as much as he seems decent enough, envision either the nobility or smallfolk ever uniting around him. Even in our world, he couldn't inspire a nation. And this is a medieval world of brutality, raw power and naked ambition, where physical strength and mental strength seem to be needed in equal measure. Tyrion's mental strength does not make up for his physical deficiency, see how easily his own soldiers turned on him after the battle at king's landing. And that was Robert's strength, he kept the masses entertained with all that lavish spending. Petyr Baelish goes into this category. A ruler, not a leader.

Personally, i'd list Robert as a Leader and not a Ruler. He was incredibly fortunate that Jon Arryn was as adept at ruling as he was, or certainly there would have been a new king long before Robert met his death.

Stannis is an interesting character. As the character i HATE in this series more than any other, his ability to rule and lead is considerable. His blind adherence to the "letter of the law", rather than to the "spirit of the law" is his undoing, imho. The analogy of Robert being true steel - capable of bending, whilst still being strong, and Stannis being cast iron, strong, but brittle - more likely to break before bending is a flawless one.

Renly would have been another good choice. He knew that the strongest power in Westeros was the Reach and the Tyrells - their support all but guaranteed the throne. He knew that public support of the masses was vital. He knew how to Rule. And seemed to be an inspiring leader.

 

[Corn! Corn! Corn!]

Hodor!!

 

[summeriris]

~Interesting points, all of them. And it's quite correct that Tyrion, however much he uses the brain of his, is at a disadvantage when it comes to leading troops. That would take me to my second choice then, Daenerys. She has proven that she can lead men. She has charisma in bucketfuls, and lastly but IMO very much importantly, she has realised that she has to learn how to rule. Daenerys has never made the same mistake twice. She has made mistakes, but they have been her harsh teachers, not her downfall. Also she has learnt the hard way that she has to have men by her side that she can trust. And she has dragons, that is cool.

 

[Koopa]

Kiwi, Young Griff, aka, baby Aegon, aka mayhaps the future Aegon VI is on the list. But, no doubt I've missed others.

Wow, i had no idea people where calling him baby Aegon.
I always thought that with baby Aegon they meant Rhaegar eldest son.
You learn something new every day.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Nice thread My choice would remain Jaime. I think the Ruling Queen or King should have some knowledge or ties to the prior regimes past mistakes and sucesses. As mentioned in another thread, Cersie made such rash self (family) serving decisions that have undone things that have been put in place for centuries.

To add a caveat, The following would be my (living) dream team, with obvious conflicts of interests if they were to all be in the same room .

King: Jaime
Hand: BFS

Kings guard:
Kevin Lannister (LC)
Raymar Royce
Victarion
The Martell (The Galant??) Danced with Sansa at Tyrions wedding
Blackfish
Stannis
Loras Tyrell (If he survives and is able)

Or

King/Queen: Dany, Jon, Tyrion
Kings/Queens guard: Three fire breathing dragons

I should also add that The Mad King had the best Kings guard IMO

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

The thing with Tywin is that he has a lot of experience already. I know that as per the current state of affairs, Tywin is no longr a contestant but he would've done well.

Something bothers me about Rhaegar, though. Aerys II was sane when he first sat on the Iron Throne, but got insane later on...Who says the whole thing with Lyanna were not the opening shots of his insanity?

 

[Koopa]

Added a bit

King: Jaime
Hand: BFS

Kings guard:
Kevan Lannister (LC) --> Would you take the LC spot from BFS then?
Robar Royce (or Waymar? Waymar was the cheeky lordling in the NW.)
Victarion --> That man would make one awesome kingsguard
Ser garlan the Gallant, Danced with Sansa at Tyrions wedding, he's a Tyrell who are usually not so fond of Martells, seems like an upgraded version of loras. A loras power up.
Blackfish : perfect kingsguard material
Stannis --> Haha stannis as a kingsguard, too amusing. He'd be so funny without intending to be.
Loras Tyrell : backup? or kingsguard personnel increase to 8th? God knows they could do with better security, with kings dieing left and right.

Or

King/Queen: Dany, Jon, Tyrion
Kings/Queens guard: Three fire breathing dragons. What about Ghost?

I should also add that The Mad King had the best Kings guard IMO

Something bothers me about Rhaegar, though. Aerys II was sane when he first sat on the Iron Throne, but got insane later on...Who says the whole thing with Lyanna were not the opening shots of his insanity?

Whilst rhaegar seems absorbed with the prophecy he once read, i don't think he'd ever become truly mad. Aerys showed signs of true madness at an early age. And ended up falling entirely to it after being kidnapped by a rebel lord.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Added a bit

King: Jaime
Hand: BFS

Kings guard:
Kevan Lannister (LC) --> Would you take the LC spot from BFS then?
Robar Royce (or Waymar? Waymar was the cheeky lordling in the NW.)
Victarion --> That man would make one awesome kingsguard
Ser garlan the Gallant, Danced with Sansa at Tyrions wedding, he's a Tyrell who are usually not so fond of Martells, seems like an upgraded version of loras. A loras power up.
Blackfish : perfect kingsguard material
Stannis --> Haha stannis as a kingsguard, too amusing. He'd be so funny without intending to be.
Loras Tyrell : backup? or kingsguard personnel increase to 8th? God knows they could do with better security, with kings dieing left and right.

Or

King/Queen: Dany, Jon, Tyrion
Kings/Queens guard: Three fire breathing dragons. What about Ghost?

Thanks for the correction on the Martell/Tyrell mixup, i was shooting off the hip pretty quick with my lineup.

I was going back and forth with the Kevin/BFS switch, but i think BFS would be a better Hand.

The Royce i was thinking about was Yohn Royce, older but a good strong man.

Thinking more about Loras, i think we should avoid the seriosly maimed. The choice that i would prefer is currently hanging on for dear life whose nickname is "The Beauty"

The list was actually seven.

Oh my, how did i forget about Ghost. He's so quiet and so absent from the TV Series i forgot about him.

While we're at it we might as well add the three eyed crow

 

[Ursa major]

I can't see Jaime as king. I think he'd like to win the throne but, like Robert, that would be the end of his interest in it.






Note to TK: Is there a thread that matches the characters of the various players to one or other of the seven aspects of the southron's religion? (I'd put Jaime's and Robert's behaviour as representing the Warrior, and Cersei's and Catelyn's as representing the Mother, for instance. Tyrion (and Theon?) might represent the Stranger, as both think of themselves as outsiders.)

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I can't see Jaime as king. I think he'd like to win the throne but, like Robert, that would be the end of his interest in it.

The Jaime at the end of AFFC wouldnt be so apt at pulling a Loras Tyrell. With his Golden hand he is forced to think more which makes him a more well balanced character perfect for Ruling, IMO. You are correct though in regards to a young Jaime's ascent to the throne would be to win it, but the new Jaime is more mature and aware. Not to mention no longer living for Cersie.

 

[Boaz]

Huge SPOILER Alert for ADWD!!! If you've not read the preview chapters then do not highlight the following...

KiwiBird... I am talking about Rhaegar's eldest son, Aegon. I think he is now the adopted/pretended son of Rhaegar's best friend, Jon Connington. Connington's family heraldry involves a Griffon and so Connington calls himself Griffon and leads a mercenary company. Aegon goes by the moniker, Young Griff. To whom are you referring? Is there another Targaryen out there? If there is, I'm dying to know! Or are we just misunderstanding each other?

I've never lived in a monarchy. I like the idea as long as there is a strong sense of meritocracy in public service. So, I like Kiwi's suggestions of highly capable men serving as Hand and LC of the Kingsguard... Kevan, Brynden, Victarion, and BFS. BFS and Victarion are more suited as field commanders than politcal plotters, but they'd do in wartime.