Young Griff [ADwD Spoilers]

[IlliferThePenniless]

I was a bit surprised to find that just about everyone in the ADwD discussion thread above seems to be buying Aegon as a Targ, while I find that I'm much more skeptical. So I'm just going to toss a few things out there and see what everyone thinks...

Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning.
Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal

This is where my skepticism started. Most of Quaithe's prophecy is fairly self evident. Victarion, Red Priest, Tyrion, Connington, and Quentyn are all pretty self evident. Mummer's Dragon seems similarly self evident. A fake dragon. Upon consideration, I suppose it could mean "dragon belonging to a mummer (ie Varys)"

except

. . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .
. . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . .
. . . mother of dragons . . . daughter of death . . .
. . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . .
. . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

In the House of the Undying we've got Dany called "the slayer of lies" followed pretty closely by a fake dragon being cheered on by the crowds, which is, at the very least, suggestive.

In ADwD we're also introduced to the idea that Dragon's have affinity for those with dragon blood in them (or at least we have the idea confirmed a bit, Brown Ben Plumm had mentioned it before). That's got to be in there for a reason and if I had to bet I'd say that confirming Aegon's lineage would be the most likely reason there (Boaz, I'll leave it to you to make the argument that this will be mechanism by which we discover Tywin's dark secret)

There's also the meta issue that it just seems like a very strange decision for Martin to introduce the rightful claimant to throne with the series 70% done. On a gut level I just don't buy it.

So why am I the only one thinking this way?

 

[Needle]

ITP, you are not alone here.

I have previously stated that I think the dragons will know if he is false. I too have more than a few doubts about Rheagars son of all people still being alive and just tossed in at the last minute.

I do however think one of Rheagars' sons is still alive, his name is JON!!

 

[Boaz]

His new name is unJon.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

I think he's going to be more SuperJon than UnJon, but we'll see. Cat was cracked when she died, then she stayed dead for a long time before she came back. I rather doubt (hope) that Jon won't stay down nearly that long.

 

[Sarakael]

Another thing that I found interesting, Tyrion only starts saying anything about Griff being a targ after that secrets discussion with Halfmaester. But we don't get to see that discussion, so who knows what was actually said.

I don't remember actually seeing anything in the book where Tyrion confirms to the reader that he actually believes it. Possibly it is an act?

 

[Jaqen H'gar]

could someone clarify who the "Dark flame" is. I thought that is would be maester marwyn, ie the mage, and was named that because of those obsidian candles that he uses. which red priest is trying to find dany?

 

[Bazza]

could someone clarify who the "Dark flame" is. I thought that is would be maester marwyn, ie the mage, and was named that because of those obsidian candles that he uses. which red priest is trying to find dany?

Moqorro the Red Priest, he's described as very dark skinned. He traveled with Tyrion for a while until the boat was crippled at sea and he was thrown overboard. Victarion picked him up and sails towards Mereen.

I don't think we've seen Marwyn yet have we? Do you suppose he's still on his way or disguised as one of the minor characters that we've encountered? He doesn't fit any of the descriptions of those that Quaithe warns about.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Also, after the krakens pluck him from the ocean the new garments they make for him are black.

 

[Ursa major]

I don't think we've seen Marwyn yet have we? Do you suppose he's still on his way or disguised as one of the minor characters that we've encountered? He doesn't fit any of the descriptions of those that Quaithe warns about.

Even allowing for GRRM's blurring of time and the sequence of events, Marwyn is probably the last to set out of the group we're expecting to meet up with Dany in Meereen. And apart from Victarion, who had a fleet convenient to hand, Marwyn has the farthest to go (all the way from Old Town). On top of that, his journey isn't without its dangers, given that he has to pass through or round a** naval war zone.

Given this, I don't believe he's yet reached Meereen. Probably.



** - At the very least.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

One more piece of Aegon is a fake that I neglected...

While fire gazing Moqorro tells Tyrion what he sees..

Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.

So that's more fake dragon imagery...
i'm just saying

 

[Ursa major]

Could Aemon still be alive at that point in time (and so be the old dragon)? And if not (or if it wasn't him anyway), who would it be?

(Jaime and Cersie aren't that old, are they? )

 

[Koopa]

BloodRaven is pretty old.

 

[Culhwch]

And there's always Aurane Waters, who has from time to time been suspected of being the mummer's dragon. I like the idea, though, of Aegon quite literally being the mummer's dragon, with Varys pulling the strings.

 

[viZion]

Upon consideration, I suppose it could mean "dragon belonging to a mummer (ie Varys)"

In this case, I think the simplest explanation is the best. It's the real Aegon.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Yeah, it would be one thing if we only heard references to Connington as rumors/stories told by others, but both Tyrion and Jon as POV characters are sure its Aegon. The false dragon might yet make an appearance. Also - Aegon could be who he's claimed to be but still be "false" to Dany. She considered herself to be a "true" dragon and not her own brother.

Im going Occam's razor on this one.

 

[cape_royds]

When Arya witnessed the secret conversation between Varys and Illyrio in the bowels of the Red Keep, neither of them made any reference to a son of Rhaegar's. Only the Targaryen princess is mentioned. Both Varys and Illyrio would have known all about Aegon. Neither had any reason to suspect their discussion was being overheard. Aegon would be the true heir, is older than Dany, and would have been more ready for the rigours of war. So why would there not be even the breath of a shadow of a hint in that episode?

Besides, if Aegon is truly the heir, it would seem to me to somewhat denigrate the extensive backstories given to Danaerys, Viserys, and Lyanna.

So to my mind, either Aegon isn't for real, or it's a rather crude retrofit to the storyline.

 

[viZion]

When Arya witnessed the secret conversation between Varys and Illyrio in the bowels of the Red Keep, neither of them made any reference to a son of Rhaegar's. Only the Targaryen princess is mentioned. Both Varys and Illyrio would have known all about Aegon. Neither had any reason to suspect their discussion was being overheard. Aegon would be the true heir, is older than Dany, and would have been more ready for the rigours of war. So why would there not be even the breath of a shadow of a hint in that episode?

Besides, if Aegon is truly the heir, it would seem to me to somewhat denigrate the extensive backstories given to Danaerys, Viserys, and Lyanna.

So to my mind, either Aegon isn't for real, or it's a rather crude retrofit to the storyline.

This is a good point. I went back and read their discussion and it's a bit weird that they don't mention baby Aegon. I guess it could be that Arya missed that part of the conversation. At that point in the series Dany is the one with an army so that could be why they are focusing their conversation on her. Plus, Aegon would have been a few years younger and so possibly not ready, either. I still think this will turn out to be the real Aegon.