What did we learn from ADWD? (MAJOR SPOILERS)

[The Imp]

I'm hoping there are going to be things i missed that I can think about before i do a re-read

Prince Aegon MIGHT be alive, unless it's a trick. I think it's the real Aegon

Arya will make a fine Faceless Prepubescent Girl

Jon is dumber than we all thought. After seeing his own Lord Commander murdered, and knowing that there were at least a few that really hated him, he did everything in his power to Marsh and Co. to try to kill him.

Dany is also dumber than we thought. Truning down the 30 ships was remarkably stupid. Marrying Hizdar (did I get the spelling right) was even more stupid. A guy promises to make the killings stop, but then you must marry him. DUH. i guess we have to remembert she's still a girl. You know NOTHING Daenerys Stromborn.

Tyrion now knows how to ride a pig. I'm sure that will come in handy at some point. Maybe it's a precursor to riding a dragon.

Jorah still loves Dany.

Melisandre REALLY beleives in what she preaches. Melisandre isn't as good at reading the flames as she would have people believe.

GRRM can redeem ANYONE. If he can make me even kind of like Theob/Reek he's a magician.

Varys still has a huge part to play. He told us the plan and it will work perfectly.

Coldhands is very likely Benjen. Bran is very likely on his way to becoming a God?

Martells don't make good dragon tamersI really feel as if GRRM wasted a whole lot of time and accomplished little if anything with that entire plot thread.

GRRM is not above using Deus Ex Machina. Maybe it was the only way to finish the book. Aegon, Dany iexcplicably staying in Meereen and Varys showing up out of nowhere are 3 instances i can think of.

The odds do not appear to be really good for wrapping this up in 2 books. Fingers crossed, bets hedged.

 

[Needle]

We learned (I think!) that Eddard did have a child with Ashara Dayne. A girl.

Davos lives (for now!)

 

[chairface]

Rickon, Shaggydog, and Osha are likely on Skagos

Brienne is alive

We're more certain that Gregor has been undead-ed.

edit: oh, and Wyman Manderly is awesome.

 

[The Imp]

We aslo learned that Melisandre saw Jon Snow very clearly in her fires when she was asking to see Stannis/Azor Ahai.

 

[chairface]

I've also heard talk of prophecies being (almost) fulfilled in unconventional ways. I think someone mentioned this on another thread on this board, but I can't find it. For instance Mirri Maz Duur's "prophecy" (if you can call it that): "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

sun rising in the west, setting in the east = Quentyn Martell
seas go dry = the Dothraki sea is drying in Dany's last chapter
mountains blow = some pyramids of Meereen are now ash and rubble
womb quickens = all that blood

next step, zombie Drogo?

There was another, along a similar vein about Jon fulfilling most of the Azor Ahai prophecy. All I can remember at the moment is that Ser Patrek of King's Mountain may count as a bleeding star.

 

[Gry Wnd]

We learned the red priests can heal rotting/wounds with a lot of pain and turning them black. May come in handy (pun intended)

Dany is into some freaky ****. (night before her wedding)

Loras, is still alive..

More about grayscale. Interesting what Val thinks about the princess...

Heart trees have a whole "avatar" thing going for them with dead spirits. They remember..

things about horns but not sure what.

Those brovasi bankers don't play around.

Winter is coming

 

[Brian G Turner]

Martells don't make good dragon tamersI really feel as if GRRM wasted a whole lot of time and accomplished little if anything with that entire plot thread.

I can sympathise with GRRM using them - there weren't many POV's, and they were an interesting addition to the mix at Mereen.

GRRM is not above using Deus Ex Machina. Maybe it was the only way to finish the book. Aegon, Dany iexcplicably staying in Meereen and Varys showing up out of nowhere are 3 instances i can think of.

I think claiming Deus Ex Machina is a little unfair - isn't that where a story cannot proceed without the intervention of the gods? In the case of ADWD, I think some of the characters lost their character to work as plot devices (ie, Jon and Dany) to further the story.

Considering that it has been running dangerously loose, I can forgive that if it speeds up events instead of GRRM allowing characters to write him into a corner.

Also, would class Aegon as a wild card - it makes the mix interesting, though how much of a part is to be played remains to be seen.

The odds do not appear to be really good for wrapping this up in 2 books. Fingers crossed, bets hedged.

I think it's possible - though next book is going to have to wrap up a lot. When Dany lands in Westeos there's going to be a helluva lot to cover.

 

[svalbard]

Prince Aegon MIGHT be alive, unless it's a trick. I think it's the real Aegon

I agree with the above.

What else did we learn? Winter is here and not a lot more.

The descriptions of what is happening with the Wildlings at Hardhome were really chilling and give a nice teaser as to the horror about to be unleashed by the Others.

 

[devilsgrin]

We learned (I think!) that Eddard did have a child with Ashara Dayne. A girl.

Davos lives (for now!)

i read this to mean that Ashara's stillborn baby girl was Barristan Freakin Selmy's. And thats why she turned to Eddard.

 

[devilsgrin]

The whole Quentyn thing really annoyed me. I tried SO hard to like him, but he reads like early Sansa... Romanticising the whole adventure. Was actually glad (though annoyed at the wasted time reading him) when he died.

Jon IS as dumb as Eddard. It proves to me, that he IS not R+L=J, since only a son of Ned Stark could be so stupid, whilst trying to hold to honour.

I really agree that Dany and Jon became vastly more stupid in this book. And it was clearly intented to make ADWD meaningless. The ONLY real things that happens are Bran finally meeting the 3 eyed Crow, Theon's "return" and Winter's Arrival. Aegon was long expected, so i suppose confirmation counts as an event.

 

[devilsgrin]

Rickon, Shaggydog, and Osha are likely on Skagos

Brienne is alive

We're more certain that Gregor has been undead-ed.

edit: oh, and Wyman Manderly is awesome.

agreed with Rickon most likely on Skagos.

Agreed Ser Robert is Gregor

DEFINITELY AGREED on Wyman Manderly. I really expected him to be as cunning as he turned out to be. Just because he's a glutton, doesn't make him stupid. Loving his anti-Bolton stance, and his comments about Freys.

Brienne however... she may not be ALIVE as such... she could be as dead as stoneheart...

 

[Gry Wnd]

Who was the girl who helped Catyln up the mountain in AGOT? That's Neds *******
girl. Boooo yaa!!!

 

[The Imp]

i read this to mean that Ashara's stillborn baby girl was Barristan Freakin Selmy's. And thats why she turned to Eddard.

I thought BFS was still thinking that had he won the tourney he could have made her Queen of Love and Beauty and she wouldn't have turned to Eddard. It seemed pretty clear that he saw this as a missed opportunity and she never knew who he was.

 

[Jaqen H'gar]

Who was the girl who helped Catyln up the mountain in AGOT? That's Neds *******
girl. Boooo yaa!!!

Haven't we been told that Mya Stone is Robert's *******, not Ned's? She has the classic baratheon black hair.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I thought BFS was still thinking that had he won the tourney he could have made her Queen of Love and Beauty and she wouldn't have turned to Eddard. It seemed pretty clear that he saw this as a missed opportunity and she never knew who he was.

I agree with Imp. In BFS's chapter, he states that she did not know he loved her and what might have been different if he had won and told her how he felt. Ashara's child was not Selmy's.

 

[All Men Must Die]

The main thing we learned is not look weak and like a girl in the Iron Fleet. Or you will be raped by the sailors.

 

[garion77]

I learned ADWD didn't move the story at all... It was a waste of 5 years... He talked more about spiced snails and chess games then moving the story... At least we know not to eat boiled boar with sweet wine...

The Tyrion chapters was painful to read knowing how interesting the character could be. But GRRM made us watch Tyrion become a tour guide telling us how beautiful the hills and trees are...

Everything that happened all happened within the last 20 pages of the book... It took him almost 6 years to write 20 pages...

I could have just went to the last 20 pages and would not have missed anythings and knew just as much as a person who read the entire book.

In other words in my opinion, ADWD stunk...

What I learned? I should have waited for the paper back... Or borrowed it from the library...

 

[viZion]

At least we know not to eat boiled boar with sweet wine...

Hahaha....yeah, Tyrion's chapters were painful. Kind of like how Bran's used to be before ADWD. Somehow, Bran became interesting in ADWD and Tyrion became a total bore. There was one entire Tyrion chapter that could have been cut completely with absolutely no change to the story. There was one entire Daenerys chapter like that, too. Oh well, it's been fun discussing Jon at least.

 

[Nerds_feather]

I learned ADWD didn't move the story at all... It was a waste of 5 years... He talked more about spiced snails and chess games then moving the story... At least we know not to eat boiled boar with sweet wine...

The Tyrion chapters was painful to read knowing how interesting the character could be. But GRRM made us watch Tyrion become a tour guide telling us how beautiful the hills and trees are...

Everything that happened all happened within the last 20 pages of the book... It took him almost 6 years to write 20 pages...

I could have just went to the last 20 pages and would not have missed anythings and knew just as much as a person who read the entire book.

In other words in my opinion, ADWD stunk...

What I learned? I should have waited for the paper back... Or borrowed it from the library...

I wouldn't go so far as to say it stunk--GRRM's worst is still better than most people's best and I did enjoy it while I was reading it.

That said, I have to admit I was greatly disappointed.. It wasn't really much different from Feast for Crows in terms of quality. Nowhere near on par with the original trilogy, each installment of which is stunningly good.

A lot of my favorite characters had narratives where nothing happened. Dangers discusses marital options, Jon Snow ponders housing options for wildlings...okay, a few chapters of this would have been fine, but it just went on and on.

I think it's clear that GRRM had a well-thought out plan for the first story arc, and may have a clear one for the second, but did not know how to bridge the gap.

Not that any of this will stop me hungrily devouring the next installment, mind you...

 

[Eversummer]

I was thinking about several things about Ashara Dayne as I reread the series...

that perhaps it was the Mad King who had dishonored Lady Ashara at Lord Whent's tourney...that she might not be dead as they all believed...she might be disguising as Septa Lemore....