So much to resolve (SPOILERS)

[The Imp]

GRRM has a LOT of paring down to do if he's going to finish this series off in 7 books. The list of characters/plot thereads that are still in play is almost mind-boggling. I had expected that the end of ADWD would have left us with a funneling effect- where lots of plot lines were either combined or finalized, and we'd be going into TWOW with a much clearer path to the finish. that clearly hasn't been the case.

POVs and/or major characters that still remain are

Bran (along with the Reeds)
Rickon (Osha), Davos to join?
Arya
Sansa (LIttlefinger)
Jon (in some form)
Cersei (TOmmen, Myrcella)
Jaime
Brienne
Theon
Asha
Ramsey/Roose
Stannis (?)
Dorne
The Late Lord Frey
The un-Cat
Loras (Highgarden)
Melisandre
Dany (BFS)
Tyrion (Ser Jorah, Penny)
Aegon (John Connington)
Victarion
Samwell
Varys (Illyrio)
The Wildings
Coldhands (Benjen?)
The Wall (will fall?)
The Direwolves


That's 17 former POVs left (if i counted correctly), plus other major characters that will still have a large role to play. We're either going to see a blood bath, maybe courtesy of The Others, or perhaps GRRM will have to resort to a time gap (as he had peviously planned, then decidded not to implement)

Would such a device work, or would it destroy the story? I haven't given it a lot of thought, but my gut instinct is that a big time gap(anything more than between 6-12 months) wouldn't work.

I don't see a cleaqr path, but that's why GRRM makes the big bucks

 

[Needle]

I will attempt to make this as coherent as possible, but as Imp said I don’t get the big bucks.
I too do not see how GRRM can finish in 2 more, not well anyway.

Don’t think a time gap would work very well for me either, earlier I thought it would be the only way for some of the major players to have the time they need, to learn, to grow up a little, ie. Bran, Arya even Rickon. I think it’s too late for that now and obviously Bran and Arya at least don’t need much time.

While I am sure there will be bloodbaths involved, as spread out as everyone is there would need to be several of them!! This is certainly possible especially if the Wall falls, yet if it does GRRM may really need some deux a machine, because how in the world do you stop the Others then!!

My prediction (or maybe just my hope!) is that TWOW will do the combining of forces we expected from ADWD, but it with some hints from ADWD we know some splitting of current forces may well occur also. Ie. Aegon will find supporters, many of them possibly from Highgarden.

Combinations I see:
Bran, Theon, and Asha will join up with Jon, and Mel. The wildlings, led by Tormund while Jon is down will rally the Wall!!

Dorne will join Aegon, how can they not assuming Aegon is the real deal, even if he isn’t they can’t risk that can they? At least part of Highgarden will join him also, probably led by Loras.

Don’t ask why, not sure myself! But still think Arya will get with Sam after that who knows!!

Sansa must dispose of Littlefinger so she is free to reclaim Winterfell and the Vale!

Jaime and Brienne are already together, and although I liked Cat, Un-Cat has got to go! That is there first task.

Tyrion will FINALLY get to Dany! Probably to later join with Aegon. Jorah also.

Dead list for TWoW:

The late Lord Frey (somebody in his family will snap!)

Victarion (Dragonfire)

Un-Cat (Jaime)

Both Boltons!! (So help me I’m rooting for Theon here!!)

Anyway for what there worth those are my thoughts!

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I felt the self-same way. I made up a list of all the dangling plot lines and came up with a list of 70. Now some of those are VERY minor, like "what become of Gendry", but even at half (35) Im not seeing how this gets wrapped up in a way that is satisfying in just two books.

What I would LOVE is for him to leave the Rickon plot-line open and at some point do a one-off of Davos' adventures on Skagos to rescue Rickon and the survivors of the recent shipwrecks, while battling cannibals and exploring ruins and such. But you know what they say, wish in one hand and read a GRRM novel in the other - see which gets tired first

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I'm pretty sure Jaime is about to get hanged. Surely what happened is that Brienne told unCat she could deliver Jaime Lannister to her. So they cut her down and sent her on her way.

 

[Darth Gregor]

I'm pretty sure Jaime is about to get hanged. Surely what happened is that Brienne told unCat she could deliver Jaime Lannister to her. So they cut her down and sent her on her way.

While I suspect you're right that Brienne is luring Jaime into unCat's trap, I'm pretty sure they'll find a way to escape (with Podrick Payne).

Jamie, still has a part to play as Cersei's valonquar. We could interpret valonquar as a younger brother, or her younger brother. Jaime, who is the younger sibling, will probably be the one to strangle Cersei in the end (Tyrion may not even be a full brother). The two of them occasionally mention that they came into the world together and will leave the world together. I suspect it'll be a murder, suicide in the last book.

However, I doubt they'll escape by murdering unCat. I think she still has a part to play - probably to eventually get revenge on Walder Frey and/or Littlefinger.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Someone better get revenge on Walder Frey! I am eagerly awaiting that day, whoever it might be. But I do hope it is a Stark who does the deed.

 

[The Imp]

Someone better get revenge on Walder Frey! I am eagerly awaiting that day, whoever it might be. But I do hope it is a Stark who does the deed.

There are 3 certainties- death, taxes, and Walder Frey dying a horrible death in a way that will avenge the Starks

 

[viZion]

Actually, I think Walder Frey lives. At the very most he dies of old age. But I'd bet on him surviving past the end of the series. It's just not a series of clearly defined good and evil where the "bad guys" get their comeuppance. Some will, but not Walder.

 

[Mesanna]

Yeah, I agree. I don't think Walder Frey's death is set in stone. There is a certain irony in that conniving old git outlasting many younger, stronger people that might appeal to GRRM.

Though the idea of a wight grasping him by the throat and choking the life out of him has a certain appeal!

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Actually, I think Walder Frey lives. At the very most he dies of old age. But I'd bet on him surviving past the end of the series. It's just not a series of clearly defined good and evil where the "bad guys" get their comeuppance. Some will, but not Walder.

I think he might out live the rest of his family, which would be fitting as the one thing he cares about seems to be his progeny.

 

[The Imp]

Actually, I think Walder Frey lives. At the very most he dies of old age. But I'd bet on him surviving past the end of the series. It's just not a series of clearly defined good and evil where the "bad guys" get their comeuppance. Some will, but not Walder.

That's a bet I would take in a second. While you're correct in saying that there is very often a blurring of the line between good and evil, and characters do get redeemed, some lines are crystal clear, and some characters are unredeemable. To not resolve Walder's crimes would be to leave a major plot thread hanging, given how much of an impact TRW had on the story. it's inconcievable to me that Walder won't pay for his crimes

I just hope that it's Arya who gets to "pull the trigger". Nymeria ripping his throat out would be really sweet.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I'm with Imp on this one. Walder Frey needs to get what's coming to him (preferably by a Stark). Same with Ramsey Snow...I'm sorry, Ramsey Bolton.

I do agree with Viz that its not a series of clearly defined good and evil where the evil characters get what they deserve. But some of the 'evil' characters have to get their comeuppance, they can't all escape what they deserve.

 

[Mesanna]

Well, as IlliferThePenniless says, he seems to care about his family, though I would say more that he cares about his lineage than the people themselves. Perhaps he will survive, but every single member of his family will wiped out and he has to live with that, and with the knowledge that his actions precipitated their deaths.

Imp, I agree that he needs punished, but that punishment doesn't have to be death. For instance, having his lands and titles stripped and becoming little more than a beggar, dependent on others for charity, might be a good punishment also? Doesn't Jaime or someone say that there are far worse things than death? I think I would like to see Walder Frey squirm, because a sword through the heart seems too quick, clean and honourable for him.

 

[The Imp]

Well, as IlliferThePenniless says, he seems to care about his family, though I would say more that he cares about his lineage than the people themselves. Perhaps he will survive, but every single member of his family will wiped out and he has to live with that, and with the knowledge that his actions precipitated their deaths.

Imp, I agree that he needs punished, but that punishment doesn't have to be death. For instance, having his lands and titles stripped and becoming little more than a beggar, dependent on others for charity, might be a good punishment also? Doesn't Jaime or someone say that there are far worse things than death? I think I would like to see Walder Frey squirm, because a sword through the heart seems too quick, clean and honourable for him.

Great point. Something horrible, either death or worse, has to and will happen to Walder.

 

[Gry Wnd]

While I suspect you're right that Brienne is luring Jaime into unCat's trap, I'm pretty sure they'll find a way to escape (with Podrick Payne).

Jamie, still has a part to play as Cersei's valonquar. We could interpret valonquar as a younger brother, or her younger brother. Jaime, who is the younger sibling, will probably be the one to strangle Cersei in the end (Tyrion may not even be a full brother). The two of them occasionally mention that they came into the world together and will leave the world together. I suspect it'll be a murder, suicide in the last book.

However, I doubt they'll escape by murdering unCat. I think she still has a part to play - probably to eventually get revenge on Walder Frey and/or Littlefinger.

Just occurred to me that Un-Cat is about to have both halves of Ice. Perhaps that's what she said "Ice" or wait Brienne didn't know they were Ice. Right? Oh well maybe Un-Cat will do something of note with those swords.

 

[The Imp]

Just occurred to me that Un-Cat is about to have both halves of Ice. Perhaps that's what she said "Ice" or wait Brienne didn't know they were Ice. Right? Oh well maybe Un-Cat will do something of note with those swords.

Interesdting thought. We WILL need the REAL Lightbringer at some point.

 

[Needle]

Just occurred to me that Un-Cat is about to have both halves of Ice. Perhaps that's what she said "Ice" or wait Brienne didn't know they were Ice. Right? Oh well maybe Un-Cat will do something of note with those swords.

Interesdting thought. We WILL need the REAL Lightbringer at some point.

Although I have no idea how it will get where it needs to go, this is a very interesting thought. Literrally Ice and Fire as one !

 

[Seferbo]

incoming wall of text despite my best efforts

...or perhaps GRRM will have to resort to a time gap (as he had peviously planned, then decidded not to implement)

Would such a device work, or would it destroy the story? I haven't given it a lot of thought, but my gut instinct is that a big time gap(anything more than between 6-12 months) wouldn't work.

I agree a time gap wouldn't work. From what I heard the reason he didn't do the original time gap was because he kept going back in time with flash backs to explain things and ended up doing it so much he figured to just keep on after the last book (err 3rd).

At the moment everything is on the verge of, for lack of a better term, going down. I agree there are quite a bit of POVs and loose ends that need merging at some point soon, but thats what so awesome about these books.
1. I can't wait for Jon to mess up Arya's hair once more and see how bad a@# she has become (assuming he lives somehow).
2. I'm looking forward to the remaining Targs learning of one anothers existence and reuniting.
3. Looking forward to Tyrion meeting up with just about anyone haha.
4. Jaime etc. etc.

My thoughts, should you care to read, on how some of these items you listed may converge (please excuse my grammatically butchered english as I try my best to avoid a wall-o-text <---which didn't happen...):

North - Wildlings flip out, lots of commotion at wall. Mel knows Jon is significant in some way, saves him barely, very slow to recover, Bran reaches out to him and keeps him alive via wolf mode talk etc. Stannis knows of the Karstark betrayal obvi from banker, uses it as advantage, Freys ride out and find camp with bunch of frozen bodies/horse bones etc BAM! ambush. ******* Bolton does have Mance but is bluffin with the letter. The **Others already demonstrated their prowess as swimmers at the ruins of Hardborne so they swim around the wall and start ravaging south. Davos finds Rickon being a brat on Skagos, finds salvageable ship from last storm n sails to white harbor, announcement to North bout Stark alive.. Boltons in more trouble. Sis takes Theon back to challenge uncles rule of Iron Isles as suggested by historical stories. Eventually supports Stark. Oh and Bran will head back with Reeds (or Reed) and Hodor when they get xportation. Ice dragon or something, maybe he will snag a dragon in Mereene, if Arya can skin change across the sea I don't see why he can't.

Mid- The sickly Robert killed/dies someway clever, Sansa gets married (again) to boy next in line to ?? house, reveals identity, more trouble for Boltons/Throne. Lil'Finger--no clue, wants power and likes to play games, gotta be in league with someone. Zombie Cat wants Jaime dead but learns hes a good guy and/or can be of more use (killing W. Frey finding daughters). Regardless Brienne and Jaime team up, some point along journey he gets "half in his cups" and finally relieves that exorbitant amount of sexual tension (what a fighter that kid will be!). Howland Reed will eventually come into play with cragnonmen and that northernmen host that went to seek them. Saving the day at some critical moment at the twins or Winterfell.

Throne - Cersei relapses into female dog mode after Kevins death. Tons of tension turmoil with Tyrells but his daughter gets off scot free so he goes to capture Storms End "again". Learns that a Targ now has it, sides with him. Loras is alive but probably wont come into play for another book. Robert Strong wins Cersei's battle. She is going to have to make friends with someone, too much going on and too many foes. Should be interesting. Maybe she will flee.

Dirty South- Dorne sides with Aegon...His daughter and sand snakes lock down the Iron throne/side with Varys. Darkstar does something good. Umm...

Middle-East - Victorion takes out remaining fleet, commotion brings dragons about, tames 1, or maybe 2. Danny comes back with more Mongolians and smashes armies surrounding Mereene (obviously riding dragon). Tyrion and Second Sons flip sides, Tyrion delivers the Bear, tells her he's help killed most Lannisters even Gregor indirectly, about her long lost nephew etc. Vict has gotta die tho, Voltanis fleet approaching, maybe Dannys gold tooth lover fights him, both end up dying (yay real deaths, i dont need them though Neds/Robs/Cats are enough...). Time to bounce, dragons burn approaching fleet, pretty easy. Time to go home and burn white walkers.

Lastly Arya still does more training but eventually takes a ship to the Fingers (idk why but its pretty close, maybe she dispatches lil'finger?).

-----
Those are just a few thoughts. And judging by the amount of time it took me to cover the very basics, while still leaving out some people, these next 2 books better be long. Going by the titles we know the next book will be very dark, not with ***deaths of main characters so much but with the state of the realm itself. Save for Dorne, Westeros is bloody and beaten nearly to death, especially the north. There is snow in King's Land, and we all know what brings the cold..


**The Others - I recently reread the first book and I noticed how much personality these people (or whatever I should call them) displayed. I wish I could quote it but they even laugh at one point as they stand around and watch the duel. To me this means they posses much more organization than one would think. Makes me wonder what else is up there, and why such a huge wall is needed. I mean, one builds giant gates and giant fences/walls to keep giant things out no?..."What do they got in there, King Kong?". (eh! who knows that quote!?)

***Deaths- I've heard so many complaints (not entirely from here) about people in the books not dying enough. People say "its not what it used to be", or "I hope Jon is really dead". Though I agree death in a novel, particularly that of a main character, adds realism / takes away that invincibility attribute present in so many fictional characters, I strongly disagree with its excessive use. Early on they were well used, they really mixed things up and tore the realm apart. I experienced such strong emotional suspense afterwards with many of the POVs because I didn't know if they'd make it through the chapter. Yet at this point in the game we've lost enough pieces, too many more may take away. You can only shut so many windows before you lose sight of your interest. Jon Snow, Jaime, and Arya I can't bare to lose, each for my own reasons. If any of them must perish it better be towards the end and for something substantial, like a sacrifice for a loved one and/or for the survival of the realm.

Congratulations if you made it through all that! Air-five coming your way!

 

[Eulalia]

Nicely done, Seferbo.

Yes, I also wondered if Bran could call a dragon, with or without a rider.

Do you suppose Jaime could actually join the Brothers without Banners with Brienne and become a Robin Hood character? (if they will overlook the whole Lannister thing)

I still think Cersei may go the other way and become a Silent Sister, after her shock.

Arya dispatching Littlefinger would be an interesting outcome. Arya rocks. It would give Sansa and Arya a chance to work together, something Ned thought they needed to do to survive.

Don't have any idea what will happen to Jon, but I don't think he is dead. He could sacrifice himself to the realm, sacrifice someone he loves to the realm, be changed and duped--can't see happily ever after. As a wild speculation, it would be interesting if he lost his voice, a la Ghost, but gained skill in being a warg.

 

[The Imp]

Nicely done, Seferbo.

Yes, I also wondered if Bran could call a dragon, with or without a rider.

Do you suppose Jaime could actually join the Brothers without Banners with Brienne and become a Robin Hood character? (if they will overlook the whole Lannister thing)

I still think Cersei may go the other way and become a Silent Sister, after her shock.

Arya dispatching Littlefinger would be an interesting outcome. Arya rocks. It would give Sansa and Arya a chance to work together, something Ned thought they needed to do to survive.

Don't have any idea what will happen to Jon, but I don't think he is dead. He could sacrifice himself to the realm, sacrifice someone he loves to the realm, be changed and duped--can't see happily ever after. As a wild speculation, it would be interesting if he lost his voice, a la Ghost, but gained skill in being a warg.

I'm not sure if this is what you meant exactly, but the dagger in the middle of his back could certainly sever the spinal cord and paralyze him. He may not be mute, but he might be alive and crippled.

Cersei becoming a Silent Sister seems as unlikely as Lindsay Lohan becoming an FBI agent. i'm curious as to what your reasoning is here? I'm not being critical, just curious