Sfumatura (Don't worry -- it just means nuance)

The Judge

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Well, there's nothing like sharing a house for a week with someone for whom English is a foreign tongue to get one thinking about language!

I've always been interested in nuance and shades of meaning and a conversation we had about beautiful/handsome reminded me just how important it is. Apparently in Italian the same word does for both with just a change of ending to signify masculine/feminine so bello/bella. Our houseguest had been taught that when translating and speaking of people, beautiful could only be used for women and handsome only for men. A good rule of thumb I suppose, but how much it misses!

It's perfectly possible to speak of a handsome woman, but to me that means she probably isn't conventionally beautiful, ie not pretty-pretty, but she is stately, imposing, well-dressed, probably aristocratic, and not in the first flush of youth. It's harder perhaps to speak of a beautiful man. Someone like Tadzio in Death in Venice is definitely beautiful, though he's a boy rather than a man, and there are one or two faintly androgynous statues (?of David?) which would fit the word. However, I recently read an article by a woman who used it of her lover and it made a big impact on me purely because it was so unusual. Instantly, I understood he might not have been good-looking in the accepted way, but his manner, his manners, his voice, his kindness, everything about him was beautiful. That told me far more than a common-or-garden "handsome". It also told me more about the writer and her feelings for him.

The same occurred when we discussed the word "gorgeous" as a synonym for lovely. Fabric can be gorgeous, but to me that means it's luxurious, deep-dyed, expensive -- silks or velvets. A view gorgeous? Perhaps, but not easily for me. Food? Probably not. But it was when applied to people we had problems. To me, using the term about another adult would usually imply a level of sexual attraction. Girls giggling over a picture of Daniel Craig might say it, but they wouldn't use it in connection with Rachel Weisz, though their brothers might. But as a result, a man calling a child gorgeous would have me looking at him through very narrowed eyes, because it would feel inappropriately sexual, yet a woman could describe a young (ie pre-teen) boy as gorgeous without any of that baggage somehow.

When we're in everyday conversation we drift along on auto-pilot using our common expressions without thought, and probably using "nice" more than any other word, but as writers we need to be aware of these subtle differences and the baggage that words carry. I suppose what I'm whiffling on about is that when we come to write we have to think about the words we use to ensure we employ the most appropriate ones.


Arrivederci!



NB Interestingly, sfumatura doesn't only mean nuance in language, it (or sfumato) is used in art to describe shading techniques and according to wikipedia it's a traditional way of obtaining essential oils from citrus fruits!
 
Beautiful men. My favourite topic. ;) I tend to use the words 'beautiful,' 'pretty,' and 'foxy' for men, even though they're usually associated with women, as that's the type of guy I go for. (Look at Ben Barnes and tell me he's not beautiful!) If I ever say a man's handsome, it'll mean that I think he looks nice enough, but he's not attractive to me.

Reading your post, TJ, I'm surprised that you think 'beautiful' is rarely used for men. Maybe it's just my use of it that makes me think it's not unusual (Tom Jones get out of my head!), or maybe it is becoming more popular now to describe men?

And now that I've said that, I'll read the read of your post. Got distracted...

edit: Finished reading, I agree with what you say about 'gorgeous.' Also it just occurred to me that one of my WIPs is called The Beautiful Man. (Provisionally, anyway.)
 
I find careful word choice is important in defining characters. If you get it right; a reader should be able to know who is speaking/thinking without being told.

Word choice can be used to quickly to identify a class structure; even gender.
 
I think simply put, for me, beautiful in reference to a man mean there is some measure of femininity in his (physical) appearance. And the opposite is true for handsome and women.

And complicating the matter we have words which can sometimes take on different meanings, either as the result of context or slang/colloquialism or just time. IE- anxious or wicked or bad or crafty.

I notice that when I'm composing my challenge entries I will often spend ages tweaking and adjusting words because they don't convey enough or they convey too much.

In addition, I very recently began to read for pleasure/my leisure time in Spanish, my second language, and I'm am getting a serious chrash course in nuance! Its amazing!
 
Reading your post, TJ, I'm surprised that you think 'beautiful' is rarely used for men. Maybe it's just my use of it that makes me think it's not unusual (Tom Jones get out of my head!), or maybe it is becoming more popular now to describe men?
Very possibly it could be a generational thing -- we shall have to see if many of the younger members weigh in on that.

I think simply put, for me, beautiful in reference to a man mean there is some measure of femininity in his (physical) appearance.
I think the same for me, hence Tadzio, which is what made that article I refer to so striking, because it was clear that the woman's lover wasn't effeminate-looking. Perhaps there the difference was she called him "My beautiful lover" (or "man" I can't now recall) not "He is beautiful" which would have indicated some feminine characteristic.

And Glitch, you're right. One of the other conversations we had in the week was the social minefield (probably only in England, however :eek:) of calling the midday meal lunch or dinner, and the later meal tea/dinner/supper!
 
As a non-native speaker and as a writer I know how hard it is sometimes to find correct choice of words. It is because your vocabulary is limited to the words you know, or that you have canvassed from the social media, and before you start really thinking about the choice of wording, you use them because you don't know any better. Therefore, it might be an innocent slip when you suddenly slip out a toad and call a child gorgeous as you know nothing better.

So, afterwards you receive a poke in your ribs or even at the event, a slap across your face. And as an example, I can give you this. When I was younger, and still with my first girlfriend I let out from my mouth a real toad that got my ears ringing. The reason was that she had been to a hairdresser and came with her beautiful blond hair colour to a bright orange. So when she asked, "what you think about this?" I answered without thinking, "It looks a bit carrot-y."

Man was that a mistake or what? But thing is that should really illustrate that a speaker might not be even aware of how offending their wording can be to another. Then again, in same time as a listener or as a reader, we should stand back for a moment before we give out a punishing judgement on these things.

Another example is my wedding speech that TJ has very kindly edited. In there was a bit that I had through my previous drafts to illustrate how I was feeling about the whole marriage tradition. And now as The Judge removed the thing, I'm very glad that I'm not going to deliver toads out from my mouth at the big day.
 
when you suddenly slip out a toad

I assume "slipping out a toad" is a Finnish expression? This is the wonderful thing about non-native speakers not speaking English perfectly (as in not adopting wholesale the stock phrases used by native speakers): we'd miss out on these unfamiliar and colourful sayings. "Slipping out a toad" is much more vivid than any normal English equivalent I can think of.

I get this as well when speaking to French clients for work. Although their English is very good (about a thousand times better than my French), there's a difference, a non-standardness to it which is very refreshing.
 
I think the same for me, hence Tadzio, which is what made that article I refer to so striking, because it was clear that the woman's lover wasn't effeminate-looking.
Funnily enough, striking is also a word which can be used in this general area.

When used for a woman's appearance, I usually take it to mean a step or so further away from beautiful than handsome, with the addition of attracting more attention (i.e. not being at all plain) and without any indication of the age of the woman.
 
And Glitch, you're right. One of the other conversations we had in the week was the social minefield (probably only in England, however :eek:) of calling the midday meal lunch or dinner, and the later meal tea/dinner/supper!

I thought this minefield was strictly American! As best as I can sort it out here in the states its an urban/rural thing. The more rural you are the more likely you eat breakfast/dinner/supper and lunch is reserved for between meal eating. The more urban you are, the more you are likely to eat breakfast/lunch/dinner with between meal eating called snacks.

I would also agree with the way you interpret the synonyms for saying someone has a pleasing look. We put so much freight on the nuance of a word we can sometimes forget that it is after all nuance.
 
I thought this minefield was strictly American! As best as I can sort it out here in the states its an urban/rural thing. The more rural you are the more likely you eat breakfast/dinner/supper and lunch is reserved for between meal eating. The more urban you are, the more you are likely to eat breakfast/lunch/dinner with between meal eating called snacks.

It's a historical thing (I keep wanting to write "an historical" - how very Austeneque of me!). Dinner has always meant "the main meal of the day", and used to be eaten around midday, with a light meal (supper) in the evening. Then with better lighting the upper classes started staying up later and later and therefore ate dinner in the early evening, requiring the insertion of a simpler midday meal called "luncheon" and often another in the late afternoon (tea) - the latter particularly for children.

Rural communities tend to stick to older, more practical habits and have kept the old nomenclature, even if "supper" is now the main meal of the day.
 
It's a historical thing (I keep wanting to write "an historical" - how very Austeneque of me!). Dinner has always meant "the main meal of the day", and used to be eaten around midday, with a light meal (supper) in the evening. Then with better lighting the upper classes started staying up later and later and therefore ate dinner in the early evening, requiring the insertion of a simpler midday meal called "luncheon" and often another in the late afternoon (tea) - the latter particularly for children.

Rural communities tend to stick to older, more practical habits and have kept the old nomenclature, even if "supper" is now the main meal of the day.

Indeed, this makes sense. The main meal is indeed "supper" and when you are talking about a really fine evening meal it is nearly always "supper."
 
Indeed, this makes sense. The main meal is indeed "supper" and when you are talking about a really fine evening meal it is nearly always "supper."

Interesting. I come from the North of England, and where I was dragged up, the three meals were always Breakfast, Dinner, Tea (with Supper being a very light addition - maybe only a glass of milk and a couple of biscuits (that's "cookies" to the Parson and his compatriots, btw). This was only added if Tea (the meal) was early for some reason, and by no means a regular addition)

Plus, we used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years...oops, got a bit carried away...
 
Breakfast, dinner and tea for me too, and I idden Northern. I never say 'supper' though. That sounds religious to me for some reason.
 
Those supping ale in your local may find that somewhat strange, Mouse.


But, I suppose, their ale might be chased (and by something altogether more spiritual)....
 
Hmm ... rural western US here, Colorado to be precise, and it's breakfast, lunch and dinner or supper depending mostly on one's roots. I grew up with Okies (my parents were from Oklahoma, which is almost Texas) and it was supper, but I guess I've grown into dinner. And just opposite of Parson, if it's a really nice meal, it's always dinner. Things in between or at midnight are snacks.
 
Hmm, I tend to sidestep the issue when I can, such as "...he had a face that the ladies of the court seemed to like", or some such, or simply address it in some gushing dialogue from a sychophant of the opposite sex.

I have used handsome for women before, generally meaning it as an alternative to the society's ideas of beauty. A warrior maiden for example, may not adhere to the slender rose of beauty archetype, but she can still be a total fox in her leather armour.
 
In regards to the mealtimes : Here in the New England area all of the above are still in regular use*. Supper and dinner are most often used interchangeably. In addition, we generally label the light "meals"(its so hard for me to call them meals!) between meals giving time specific names: brunch (between breakfast and lunch), snack(between lunch and dinner, sometimes jokingly called 'linner') and midnight snack(anything after dinner but before breakfast.)

In addition, I find some words/descriptions/forms of address can be offensive depending on the receiving end's age. Examples: prior to a certain age, some woman take offense from being called ma'am. And after a certain age men/boys take offense from being described as adorable. Is this true elsewhere?

*maybe not 'tea'
 
In addition, I find some words/descriptions/forms of address can be offensive depending on the receiving end's age. Examples: prior to a certain age, some woman take offense from being called ma'am. And after a certain age men/boys take offense from being described as adorable. Is this true elsewhere?

I see myself as "country" which for me means that I "sir" and "Ma'am" all over the place. I greet with "howdy" and leave with "adios." I open the doors for women and men. --- And if anyone is offended, I am not worried. I mean it in the best most polite way.

--- I had to testify in court case a couple of years ago and said "sir' and "ma'am" to the lawyers examining me. The judge said to me "Thank you for your fine testimony." I was too proud of that for my own good.
 
I love how Americans do the whole 'sir,' 'ma'am' thing. When a Brit says it it always sounds vaguely sarcastic.

I work with Americans - it's my 'region' for my job. Whenever the guy I deal with in Illinois talks to me on the phone my typical greeting is 'all right?' His response always makes me smile, as there's a moment of absolute silence as he works out how he's supposed to respond to that.
 

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