Is it still worth it?

[biodroid]

I am about half way through A Game of Thrones and it's pretty good so far. I can imagine that the next 2 books will be good according to the reviews but then it drops significantly in A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons. Is it still worth my while to carry on reading this series even though according to most the series actually becomes dull and boring?

 

[Sleepless]

Asking that question on a forum dedicated to the books and therefore not likely to be populated by anyone who thinks the series has become 'dull and boring' is highly unlikely to get you an even handed response. I would be surprised if anyone said stop reading now. I suggest reading until you get bored.

 

[Koopa]

I'm sot sure what to tell you.
I've never read the Wheel of Time series because i couldn't bother with a series that seemed to go on and on without ending. (And ultimately because of the author's death the series did indeed not manage to get an ending). Though i've read somewhere some other chap is gonna finish it, still that 's not the same thing.)

It is starting to feel that ASOIAF is heading into that same direction. The books are still interesting, better then most out there but the flow (and editing) is stagnating which is frustrating to say the least. I'm still not entirely sure what the song is all about.

It feels like it's taking him till now to set up the pieces with which the real boardgame is going to get played, and that in the next book the real game at long last is gonna start. We've not even sniffed the real endgame. If we where playing Stratego, GRRM begun with setting up the board, then weeding out the unwanted distractions (eliminating some sergeants, some scouts, some miners, some lieutenants, a captain and a bomb or two) so as to gaguge your enemy lines, it's setup, as well as to allow for free and quick movement of your own more vital players (so you can redeploy, alter your strategy, and so on) thus setting the play, being ready for the real battle which is about to commence.

There is still the hope that GRRM actually can manage to finish it in the next 2-3 books (i think he'll have to add another volume). if he feels up to it. Which i'm not so sure that he is. ADWD often seemed more like a chore he had to do rather then wanted to do.

 

[soulsinging]

It is starting to feel that ASOIAF is heading into that same direction. The books are still interesting, better then most out there but the flow (and editing) is stagnating which is frustrating to say the least. I'm still not entirely sure what the song is all about. It feels like it's taking him till now to set up the pieces with which the real boardgame is going to get played, and that is the next book the real game at long last is gonna start. We've not even sniffed the real endgame.

What he said. The first three are among the best fantasy I ever read (especially the second half of ACOK and all of ASOS), but there is a big drop off in book for the reasons listed above which seems to carry into book 5. I'd say go ahead and read the first three (it kind of plateaus there and is a reasonable place to end), then wait to go on to see if he ever even finishes. That's what I'm doing.

 

[HareBrain]

Although I was disappointed with the last two, if the rest of the series had already been available I would have kept on reading. I think my disappointment with ADWD is largely because that's all I'm going to get for years.

Your best bet, if you can, might be to wait until the series is complete. Or take SS's advice and read the first three, which end at a point at which GRRM was originally thinking of breaking the story for five years.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

"Yes", for the reasons listed above and "No" for the reasons above as well. I think it's bitter sweet already, before we even get to the "bitter sweet" ending that GRRM has already promised. (at this point, i hate to even think what bitter/sweet means at this time)

I think the last two books (AFFC & ADWD) were a disappointing drop off from the exciting first three. I'm afraid he may be milking the new found fame a bit, being that it should have ended at ASOS as originally planned. With that being said, i'm being somewhat of a hypocrite because who wouldn't want more of ASOIAF?

Ending with "ASOS", this would have been a "Classic EPIC" series.
Ending with "AFFC" would have made it a "Great" series.
Ending with "ADWD" makes it a "GOOD" series.

Do you see the trend?

Let's root for GRRM, to make this a "GREAT" series once again with the last two remaining books.

I have great admiration for GRRM taking on such a huge story arch, but he may have bitten off more than he can chew. He had a good thing going by not forcing the "cheesy" magic down our throats in the beginning books. However, it appears he may begin abusing it and blindsiding the readers with some things that seemed above GRRM in the beggining books, just for the sake of continuing the story.

My dream ending would have been a conclusion to all of the characters already introduced and glossing over the "fluff" that appeared in AFFC & ADWD. If he continues with the overly descriptive details of the land and people going forward we may be in for a longer ride than many realize.

Alot of people are fearing he will pull a Robert Jordon, but i haven't read TWOT series, so i can only compare the direction he's going to the "Dark Tower Series". After a great start, it ended up being a so-so conclusion in the last few books. I will be more interested in a good conclusion and direction to the story rather than GRRM going for the "shock value" death of a favorite character just to keep the fans tuned in.

Is it worth it? Absolutely! Am i getting worried that this great series is becoming watered down? Absolutely!

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

As someone who was disappointed with ADWD, I would still say without a doubt that it is worth it. I agree that AFFC and ADWD were not up to par with the previous 3 books, and there could have been some better editing decisions, but they are still good books. I have read the first 4 books of Wheel of Time and I do believe I am done with that series. In no way would I say that about ASOIAF. GRRM has not yet come close to having me lose interest in the characters and stories.

And lets remember that AFFC and ADWD were supposed to be one book that took place 5 years after ASOS. Perhaps since having them take place immediately following ASOS wasn't in his original plan, he lost focus and direction somewhat.

Even though I was a bit disappointed with ADWD, it is still better than most of the other books I have read this year, if that tells you anything. Again, I say stick with it, especially since you are enjoying it. If nothing else, finish through ASOS. I feel sorry for people who never experience that book, it is just pure awesomeness.

 

[biodroid]

I just got the impression that he mentions food and how it's made a lot in ADWD and the plot stagnates. I will definitely read them I just don't want to be investing time in them and then having to go and hunt down GRRM (and give him a stern talking to course, what else )

 

[The Imp]

I just got the impression that he mentions food and how it's made a lot in ADWD and the plot stagnates. I will definitely read them I just don't want to be investing time in them and then having to go and hunt down GRRM (and give him a stern talking to course, what else )

I've read all but ADWD 4 times. I personally rate the books from best to "worst" as aGoT, aSoS, aCoK, ADWD, aFFC. Having said that, GRRM on his worst day is better than 99% of the hacks that claim to be writing. I think GRRM made a couple of huge mistakes when creating aFFC and aDWD, but they're still damn fine books. The real problem is aGoT and aSoS were masterpieces that make almost anything else pale in comparison.

The series is absolutely worth reading, but since you've read half of aGoT you already know that.

 

[No One]

Switch ASOS with AGOT in the above list of personal ratings, and I agree with Imp 100% on everything he says.

 

[Ursa major]

I'm afraid he may be milking the new found fame a bit, being that it should have ended at ASOS as originally planned!

That isn't right. My understanding is that ASoIaF was intended to be a trilogy, but the first book (which was to be called A Game of Thrones) became far too big during its writing. To resolve this, GRRM agreed to publish the earlier part of the planned novel as AGoT and kept writing, putting the rest of the original Volume One in ACoK and ASoS. Before this splitting up of Volume One, the second book was to have been A Dance with Dragons and the third, The Winds of Winter.)

As you can see, ADwD (now joined by its non-identical twin, AFfC) is at the midpoint of the storyline, which is why, frankly, so little is resolved within them**. That was the job of TWoW (though the original Volume Three is now to be two books, TWoW and ADoS).


So GRRM can be accused of being far too prolix in his documenting of the story, but if he hadn't been, we wouldn't have what is nearly everyone's*** favourite book in the series (so far), ASoS.



** - It would be an odd trilogy if most of the story threads were to be resolved halfway through.

*** - Or, if you like, No One prefers AGoT to ASoS.

 

[The Imp]

Switch ASOS with AGOT in the above list of personal ratings, and I agree with Imp 100% on everything he says.

I'll call aGoT and aSoS a tie. My reasoning is that for me, aGoT was like nothing i had ever read before, but aSoS was probably an overall better book. TRW alone..............

Talking about this series is kind of like talking about the best season of The Sopranos. In the end (hopefully) it's going to be about the quality of the stroy and maybe more importantly, the story-telling.

 

[biodroid]

Ok, ok, ok you have all convinced me to stick to it and that's what I am going to do. Thanks for the motivation guys

 

[Overread]

I think its very normal for a series to somewhat slow in the middle - I see it with a lot of book series where book one blows you away - book two trudges along and then book three blows you away again for the ending. With trilogies its not so apparent, but with a longer series like ASOIAF (esp when the time between books is long) the slower middle ground appears to be far more extended as it just has more ground to cover - although longer series can also throw in a middle peek book (eg look at Malazan Book of the Fallen and Memories of Ice)

Of course the risk is that the author gets stuck in the middleground rut and fails to fully pull themselves out of it. I think GRRM really recognises this problem however and I think he will pull himself out of the doldrums - we just have to let him get through it.

 

[biodroid]

Overread - I thought so, I also heard authors complain that the middle books are always the worst to write

 

[Clansman]

I think its very normal for a series to somewhat slow in the middle - I see it with a lot of book series where book one blows you away - book two trudges along and then book three blows you away again for the ending. With trilogies its not so apparent, but with a longer series like ASOIAF (esp when the time between books is long) the slower middle ground appears to be far more extended as it just has more ground to cover - although longer series can also throw in a middle peek book (eg look at Malazan Book of the Fallen and Memories of Ice)

Of course the risk is that the author gets stuck in the middleground rut and fails to fully pull themselves out of it. I think GRRM really recognises this problem however and I think he will pull himself out of the doldrums - we just have to let him get through it.

This is a point worth exploring. Personally, I never complain about a middle book (I liked AFFC a lot), because I am always good at seeing the big picture in a long series like this one (my favourite three series of all time (in order): Wars of Light and Shadow (9 volumes as of this fall, projected 11, all big and fat); ASoIaF, currently 5 fat novels, with at least 2 to come; Malazan Book of the Fallen (10 volumes, plus the Esslemont books taking it to 13). In a long series, you cannot relentlessly build the tension without a release, and building the tension too early is fatal. If GRRM tried to wind this story up too soon, you'd get your climax, but it would not be satisfying. I suspect that there will be a lot of happy readers when A Dream of Spring hits the shelves (in about 10 years). The middle part of a long epic is there to hone the various plot lines and make an ending possible. Picture a story starting as a single line, then branching multiple times, and then converging again to two or three large lines just prior to resolution. We are now at the point where convergence has started in earnest, which will be continued in The Winds of Winter.

The middle books in a series are what makes the ending so darn good. Complain if you will about the story not being resolved (a truly justified complaint in WoT), it is this context and complexity in the middle part of a long epic series that make the denouement so darn powerful. Remember, LOTR, which most of us love as a masterpiece of fantasy, was really only one book (the publisher insisted on splitting it, not JRRT), and it was as long as one of the GRRM books. Politics, except for a bit of RotK and at the Council of Elrond, did not figure at all in the plot, whereas in ASoIaF, it is the center of the story. It is a much bigger and more ambitious work than LOTR (though GRRM doesn't hold a candle to JRRT in world building. No one has really approached JRRT's heights in world-building).

Book five and loving it, and ready for the next. Time for another re-read yet?

 

[The Imp]

This is a point worth exploring. Personally, I never complain about a middle book (I liked AFFC a lot), because I am always good at seeing the big picture in a long series like this one (my favourite three series of all time (in order): Wars of Light and Shadow (9 volumes as of this fall, projected 11, all big and fat); ASoIaF, currently 5 fat novels, with at least 2 to come; Malazan Book of the Fallen (10 volumes, plus the Esslemont books taking it to 13). In a long series, you cannot relentlessly build the tension without a release, and building the tension too early is fatal. If GRRM tried to wind this story up too soon, you'd get your climax, but it would not be satisfying. I suspect that there will be a lot of happy readers when A Dream of Spring hits the shelves (in about 10 years). The middle part of a long epic is there to hone the various plot lines and make an ending possible. Picture a story starting as a single line, then branching multiple times, and then converging again to two or three large lines just prior to resolution. We are now at the point where convergence has started in earnest, which will be continued in The Winds of Winter.

The middle books in a series are what makes the ending so darn good. Complain if you will about the story not being resolved (a truly justified complaint in WoT), it is this context and complexity in the middle part of a long epic series that make the denouement so darn powerful. Remember, LOTR, which most of us love as a masterpiece of fantasy, was really only one book (the publisher insisted on splitting it, not JRRT), and it was as long as one of the GRRM books. Politics, except for a bit of RotK and at the Council of Elrond, did not figure at all in the plot, whereas in ASoIaF, it is the center of the story. It is a much bigger and more ambitious work than LOTR (though GRRM doesn't hold a candle to JRRT in world building. No one has really approached JRRT's heights in world-building).

Book five and loving it, and ready for the next. Time for another re-read yet?

You made some great points. Let me add that the trap that most of us have fallen into is to think of aDWD as being the fifth book of the series, and having "5th book expectations" for it. Rather than being book 5, it's really 4B (I think Martin actually said this in a recent interview). When all is said and done, the first 700 pages or so will really be AFFC part 2 and then next 300 the prologue to TWoW. It will be a 6 book series with a massive book sitting in the number 4 slot. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Ursa major]

Or, if one is a true optimist (and also takes on board the originally-planned three-book structure): after a first book that became three (AGoT, ACoK, ASoS), his second only became two (AFfC, ADwD) and the third is only supposed to be two as well (TWoW, ADoS). Obviously GRRM has been tightening up his story telling....








(By the way, I keep seeing ADoS as Adios.)

 

[biodroid]

TWoW, ADoS: what are the names of these acronyms?

 

[Corn! Corn! Corn!]

^ "The Winds of Winter" and "A Dream of Spring."