Who gains by fomenting chaos?

[JagLover]

After ADWD it is clear that both Varys and Littlefinger have been following an agenda of causing as much mayhem as possible.

Littlefinger had a role in Jon Arryns death and played a key role in starting the war.

Varys has been revealed to be playing a similar game (which might have been inferred after ASOS, where he practically pointed Tyrion in the direction of his father's room)

The stated objective for Varys at least is his support for a Targ restoration. While Littlefinger may be linked with him, or playing for his own gain.

But those who benefit most from the disruption brought to the seven kingdoms are the 'others'. A united realm could easily stop them at the wall, or failing that the neck. One riven by war and mutual hatred will have far less chance. This new Targ, who it is hinted is a pretender, adds further credance to that idea. For he will generate yet more chaos and if he is defeated will weaken Danys chances and yet he is only introduced to the scene when it is apparent that Dany is far more formidable than anyone might have foreseen.

 

[The Imp]

After ADWD it is clear that both Varys and Littlefinger have been following an agenda of causing as much mayhem as possible.

Littlefinger had a role in Jon Arryns death and played a key role in starting the war.

Varys has been revealed to be playing a similar game (which might have been inferred after ASOS, where he practically pointed Tyrion in the direction of his father's room)

The stated objective for Varys at least is his support for a Targ restoration. While Littlefinger may be linked with him, or playing for his own gain.

But those who benefit most from the disruption brought to the seven kingdoms are the 'others'. A united realm could easily stop them at the wall, or failing that the neck. One riven by war and mutual hatred will have far less chance. This new Targ, who it is hinted is a pretender, adds further credance to that idea. For he will generate yet more chaos and if he is defeated will weaken Danys chances and yet he is only introduced to the scene when it is apparent that Dany is far more formidable than anyone might have foreseen.

Don't forget about Illyrio, who has probably been funding Varys' efforts. It's not clear what he stands to gain from the restoration of a targ throne, but he cl;early has been plotting and planning just that since aGoT.

BTW, i'm not at all convinced that a unified Westeros could stop The others, at least not without dragons. What would probably stop them would be climate rather than geography, with the warmer climes acting as a natural barrier (assuming they hate warmth).

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Isn't dragon glass and fire the only two things known that can destroy them?

 

[Koopa]

Varys and Ilyrio are plotting for Targ restoration (putting Aegon) on the throne.

Littlefinger plots for wealth and power. His endgoal is probably becoming one of the most powerful men in the realm which no one can any longer look down upon.

Actually so far the others have not gained that much by the war. Quite the opposite. Indeed because of the war Stannis was forced to come to the wall, thus initiating the wildlings transfer south of the wall. Helping set a precedent which allowed Jon to repopulate the castles and the wall (the first line of defence) against the others. Stannis has also begun mining dragonglass at dragonstone. meanwhile through the chaos of the war, dany and her dragons are more or less left alone by the powers that be in westeros allowing them time needed to grow up and become strong/powerful. No assassins, ... are sent their way. Which likely would have happened had Robert Baratheon stayed in power. And whilst the free cities have proven to be a threat to dany (at least till now), it's not the same as westeros gunning for you. indeed indeed at the moment westerosi are coming to seek her in a way that may prove beneficial in her return to westeros. And thus ultimately against the others. At the end of the day it won't be and never was gonna be a plethora of knights (though a certain amount of them sure would help) that will bring the downfall of whatever the threat of others wil actually turn out to be.

 

[JagLover]

Actually so far the others have not gained that much by the war. Quite the opposite. Indeed because of the war Stannis was forced to come to the wall, thus initiating the wildlings transfer south of the wall. Helping set a precedent which allowed Jon to repopulate the castles and the wall (the first line of defence) against the others. Stannis has also begun mining dragonglass at dragonstone. meanwhile through the chaos of the war, dany and her dragons are more or less left alone by the powers that be in westeros allowing them time needed to grow up and become strong/powerful. No assassins, ... are sent their way. Which likely would have happened had Robert Baratheon stayed in power. And whilst the free cities have proven to be a threat to dany (at least till now), it's not the same as westeros gunning for you. indeed indeed at the moment westerosi are coming to seek her in a way that may prove beneficial in her return to westeros. And thus ultimately against the others. At the end of the day it won't be and never was gonna be a plethora of knights (though a certain amount of them sure would help) that will bring the downfall of whatever the threat of others wil actually turn out to be.

Yes Stannis travelled to the wall, an outcome that few could have foreseen. But in all other respects the Realm is far less able to withstand attack. In terms of the closest realm, the north, Robb lead twenty thousand men south and two in every ten returned. Those that are left are in the middle of a northern civil war and little help can be expected from anywhere else in the country which are either weakened by war or on the brink of rejoining hostilities.

Given the vulnerabilities of the Others, to obsidian, fire, and Valryian steel. A united realm should have been easily able to stop them at the neck, even if they could not hold the wall.

 

[JagLover]

BTW, i'm not at all convinced that a unified Westeros could stop The others, at least not without dragons. What would probably stop them would be climate rather than geography, with the warmer climes acting as a natural barrier (assuming they hate warmth).

Not sure how warm it is going to be even down south. I think it is still autumn in the timeline (despite the terrible weather in the north)

 

[viZion]

Not sure how warm it is going to be even down south. I think it is still autumn in the timeline (despite the terrible weather in the north)

It's officially winter now in all of Westeros. This happened in the epilogue of ADWD.

I do wonder if the Others have an aversion to warmer weather. My guess would be that do not. They've just been trapped behind the Wall which happens to have a very cold climate. We do know that the Others bring cold with them whenever they show up so I'm guessing that same thing would happen even in the middle of summer if they were allowed to get beyond the Wall.

 

[Tansy]

Actually now I think on it - no one has mentioned the fact Lyssa Arryn killed her husband and then married Littlefinger, I think this points out that Littlefinger has had a very subtle but influential hand on the whole set of events that followed, how much was planned and how much is he winging it, is he working with or against Varys, who else is he working with, the bank of Braavos maybe?, and who are his sources, can Sansa find out his secrets and usurp him?

I think the others are capable of moving beyond the wall and turning the seven kingdoms to ice, Ii think the wall's magic prevents them doing this, they need the wall to come down to do this.

What if they switched the horns and the horn of Winter is winging its way to Dany as the horn that calls the dragons??

Whichever way for this to play out the wall has to come down and the Night's watch to end

I stillthink that Bran, Sam and Coldhands/Benjen along with the children will discover the others' major weakness

 

[Delran Stark]

Just my 2 cents here: It may well end up as the Wall being another Minas Tirith, and Danny playing the part of Rohan or Aragorn. And after that a ranging in the Haunted Forest to wipe out the Others.

 

[Koopa]

After reading Jaqlover comment, i've been thinking.
At first i was fully agreeing with him and cursing me for my stupidity for overlooking Eddard Stark death (the wall biggest supporter) and Robb's (and his army) faith thus thwarting any northern lords to come to the wall's aid.

But on second look it ain't that bad. Why? Because without eddard going south, Jon would never have joined the Night's Watch at that point in time. Not to mention with a lord in winterfell the wildlings would have never been allowed south of the wall. Meaning the majority of them would have ended up as wights. It was Stannis and Jon who reduced the number of wildlings north of the wall, and it would not have happened without them.

Then there is the fact that if war had not erupted Bran would never have joined Meera and Jojen beyond the wall. And as i still believe he is an ally against the others, this likely would have been a huge drawback.

Also Robb was in a hurry so he did not take all the forces of the north with him. And the civil war in the north has not yet been all that destructive towards nothern personel. The southerns are southerns and therefore of lesser ilk in my books . Added to that comes that what i previously stated that it aint gonna be the amount of manpower that will be the differencemaker, but dragons, dragonglass, ... . And as previously stated the war has not been bad for all that.

All in all, i remain by my statement, whilst the chaos in westeros certainly has it's drawbacks, in comparison to it's virtues it brings in the war against the others, the chaos has not been all that bad for it.

 

[JagLover]

Good points Kiwibird

But I would like to say that if anyone was deliberatly trying to weaken Westeros ready for an invasion by the 'Others' they would think in braod terms rather than recogonise the significance of Bran being able to travel to take instruction etc.

Turning to Jon yes his joining might have been delayed slightly if Ned had not travelled south when he did, but he was already planning to join and as an adult Winterfell had no place for him. Joining later he may not have been as well placed to become commander, but I would draw your attention to the fact that of the teenage commanders appointed all have been Starks (per Sam). If Ned were still in the North is is likely the watch may have still gone with Jon in order to curry favour with the most powerful local lord and firm supporter.

 

[Tragedy]

The Others are going to win.

 

[The Imp]

The Others are going to win.

And everyone will live unhappily ever after?

 

[Mesanna]

ZOMG Zombies are going to take over the world!!!