Does GRRM work to an overarching plan or...?

[Gazz]

Does he just wing it?

Having been involved in a creative process with a certain project before, I have to admit that GRRM's books are startlingly similar in supposed 'design' to what we normally have ended up with.

And what we've normally done is... wing it. Hugely. We winged it from event to event, from plot to plot. We pretended afterwards that everything we did had a pre-written purpose, but we were basically lying. Post-facto rationalisation is very easy

But what happens when you wing it, but don't really know exactly how to work in all the crazy events, prophecies, foretellings and 'weird dreams' that your characters all have?

You end up with something disjointed, and just ask another question, in the hope that you can play for time until you've thought of some way of fitting everything in. The way that the series 'Lost' used to do.

I now genuinely believe that Mr Martin is winging his books from one to the next, much in the way that the 'Lost' creators did, without really knowing himself how he's actually going to resolve anything. GRRM does not have an overall plan. He is just coming up with ideas from chapter to chapter and hoping that they all just sort of... tie in somehow in the end. And they didn't in ADwD, hence his trouble writing it, and his failure to answer any of even the simpler questions.

Answering the questions, to him, is no fun. As he doesn't know how. So he just postulates something new, from chapter to chapter, from book to book, to keep us reading, without him actually answering the questions he proposes himself.

Will he cop out like the supposed ending of Lost did? (I never watched it myself). Who can say.

http://www.ugo.com/tv/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-talking-smack

I'd like to believe he has taken some of his own frustration at those series onboard, because he is WELL on the road to becoming a huge hypocrite.

I do have faith in him, as at least he can recognise publically how bad it is when things are not resolved in a pleasurable fashion, but perhaps his anger at these series was something misdirected.

I did still enjoy his book though, and will buy the next one with high hopes, as always.

Anyway, I think that there's a lot that can happen in the next book, there are plenty of ways to resolve things, I just hope that he actually does try and tie some strings together instead of constantly introducing new factors to his already hugely complex story.

 

[The Imp]

Does he just wing it?

Having been involved in a creative process with a certain project before, I have to admit that GRRM's books are startlingly similar in supposed 'design' to what we normally have ended up with.

And what we've normally done is... wing it. Hugely. We winged it from event to event, from plot to plot. We pretended afterwards that everything we did had a pre-written purpose, but we were basically lying. Post-facto rationalisation is very easy

But what happens when you wing it, but don't really know exactly how to work in all the crazy events, prophecies, foretellings and 'weird dreams' that your characters all have?

You end up with something disjointed, and just ask another question, in the hope that you can play for time until you've thought of some way of fitting everything in. The way that the series 'Lost' used to do.

I now genuinely believe that Mr Martin is winging his books from one to the next, much in the way that the 'Lost' creators did, without really knowing himself how he's actually going to resolve anything. GRRM does not have an overall plan. He is just coming up with ideas from chapter to chapter and hoping that they all just sort of... tie in somehow in the end. And they didn't in ADwD, hence his trouble writing it, and his failure to answer any of even the simpler questions.

Answering the questions, to him, is no fun. As he doesn't know how. So he just postulates something new, from chapter to chapter, from book to book, to keep us reading, without him actually answering the questions he proposes himself.

Will he cop out like the supposed ending of Lost did? (I never watched it myself). Who can say.

http://www.ugo.com/tv/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-talking-smack

I'd like to believe he has taken some of his own frustration at those series onboard, because he is WELL on the road to becoming a huge hypocrite.

I do have faith in him, as at least he can recognise publically how bad it is when things are not resolved in a pleasurable fashion, but perhaps his anger at these series was something misdirected.

I did still enjoy his book though, and will buy the next one with high hopes, as always.

Anyway, I think that there's a lot that can happen in the next book, there are plenty of ways to resolve things, I just hope that he actually does try and tie some strings together instead of constantly introducing new factors to his already hugely complex story.

GRRM has said many times that he knows where he's going and the basics of what's going to happen. His problems have been that he seems to be the kind of person that, if you were to ask him the time of day, would provide you with the history of timepieces and plans to build various types of wristwaches. I aslo think he "falls in love" with certain characters and gives them more "air time" than their story really might deserve.

Having said that, one only needs to look at some of the forshadowing/prophecy in (especially) the early books to know that he absoultely knows where he's going, at least in a broad sense. While many have complained that books 4 and 5 didn't move the story far enough along, it seems to me that he has been setting the stage for the events that will occur in book 6. I'll also say that IMO, GRRM's worst day of writing is equal to almost anyone else's best day. He suffers from the unique problem of setting a bar that is so high (with aSoS and aGoT) that it will be hard to him to achieve that height again. It doesn't mean he's failed, it just means that his stuff is that good.

 

[Ursa major]

Until the last sentence of the last book of a series (any series by any author), no-one knows if it will turn out as intended, the author included. It doesn't really matter whether the author "wings" it or is a meticulous planner; the sheer number of characters and situations will all have an impact on how later parts of the series turn out. Series take a long time to be written; their authors don't switch off their brains when they start writing. (We wouldn't want them to.)

And there's a bigger problem: characters become set in their ways; sometimes they wouldn't do what their creators originally intended. If they still do those things, we'd know the author wasn't really up to the job.

 

[Wiggum]

The idea that he's setting the stage for event that happen in book 6 baffles me.

If he continues at this pace, with this many plot lines, how is anything really going to happen in book 6?

It took 1000 pages to get a couple thousand wildings a 100 miles.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I believe originally he had a clear cut beginning and end to the series. However, with the early success, fan fair, and love of characters, he ultimatley decided to extend the series and delve further into the characters than originally plannned.

I firmly believe that he knew how he wanted to tie up and the middle of the series, but got stuck. This forced him to scrap and re write, in which i think some of the hard core fans have seen through the change of course that happened in ADWD. This is why i said previously that i would love to see the scrapped pages that will be sent to the university. Those pages would have been where the story intended to go, and thus the subsequent re write and "wing it" approach he has set forth on.

Yes, i think he has a clear beginning and ending on how he wants it to go, but the meereneese knot changed the journey quite a bit. I think he will write a good end to the series, but i think he got frustrated and figured it would take too long to piece his original plan together.

I think the Young Griff, Connington, the stay in Meereen and a few other events were added after he got stuck.

ADWD, is kind of what i would have expected another author to have done if GRRM wouldnt have been able to finish the series. Obviously not as well as GRRM himself at the scrap/rewrite of course.

 

[Ursa major]

I believe originally he had a clear cut beginning and end to the series. However, with the early success, fan fair, and love of characters, he ultimatley decided to extend the series and delve further into the characters than originally plannned.

Sorry, but the word-explosion occurred before A Game of Thrones was finished. In fact, as has been discussed before, AGoT had reached well into what we now know as A Clash of Kings when GRRM agreed with his agent/publisher (I can't recall which) to turn most (but not all) of what he'd already written into a first book with a much-reduced scope. (The original scope included the events in what we now know as A Storm of Swords.)

So while he obviously found himself delving "further into the characters than originally planned" this cannot have been a consequence of the success of the first book, because AGoT hadn't been finished, or published, let alone become a major success, at that time.

I firmly believe that he knew how he wanted to tie up and the middle of the series, but got stuck. This forced him to scrap and re write, in which i think some of the hard core fans have seen through the change of course that happened in ADWD. This is why i said previously that i would love to see the scrapped pages that will be sent to the university. Those pages would have been where the story intended to go, and thus the subsequent re write and "wing it" approach he has set forth on.

I think that you're on much firmer ground here. By definition, the increase in size from the first planned book into three published ones provided many more threads, all of which he had to deal with.

Yes, i think he has a clear beginning and ending on how he wants it to go, but the meereneese knot changed the journey quite a bit. I think he will write a good end to the series, but i think he got frustrated and figured it would take too long to piece his original plan together.

This is almost certainly correct. I imagine that he was also worried that readers would see a five year gap in the narrative and wonder what had happened (and wondered how various characters had got where they had and why). They may even have begun worrying that future books would be full of lengthy flashbacks. (It isn't as if the early books didn't have quite a lot of those.)

I think the Young Griff, Connington, the stay in Meereen and a few other events were added after he got stuck.

I'm not sure about this. I think Young Griff was always there, otherwise I think GRRM would have worked harder to get Dany to Westeros. (Her decision to head to Slavers Bay was in her first chapter of ASoS. Even if she'd started for Westeros in her first chapter in A Dance with Dragons, the other characters would have been heading for Meereen, if only because they wouldn't have much knowledge of her movements.)

ADWD, is kind of what i would have expected another author to have done if GRRM wouldnt have been able to finish the series. Obviously not as well as GRRM himself at the scrap/rewrite of course.

Even GRRM can only work with the situation, and the characters, he's already created. And that means they can't all get into position in a chapter each; hence all the movements through and around Essos.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Originally Posted by Ursa Major
Sorry, but the word-explosion occurred before A Game of Thrones was finished. In fact, as has been discussed before, AGoT had reached well into what we now know as A Clash of Kings when GRRM agreed with his agent/publisher (I can't recall which) to turn most (but not all) of what he'd already written into a first book with a much-reduced scope. (The original scope included the events in what we now know as A Storm of Swords.)

So while he obviously found himself delving "further into the characters than originally planned" this cannot have been a consequence of the success of the first book, because AGoT hadn't been finished, or published, let alone become a major success, at that time.

This is understood. The early success i was referring to was up to ASOS, prior to the AFFC/ADWD meereneese knot dilemma. (when ASOIAF hit its peak so to speak)

Even though he planned AFFC,ADWD, TWOW, and ADOS it seems that the end up til this point is nowhere in sight. (or should i say, with too many open ended options for GRRM to take it where ever he chooses to). Yes, i know, it's his story and he can do with it as he chooses. I just hope he doesn't "jump the shark". I can see him on his Harley, revving up his engine to all of the surrounding fans telling him "Go, Go, Go!"

I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that he doesnt have to pull a rabbit out of the hat, as the story was already on a awesome pace, even if he doesn't provide us with anymore jaw dropping events, which he appears to be trying to force.

Originally Posted by Ursa Major
I'm not sure about this. I think Young Griff was always there, otherwise I think GRRM would have worked harder to get Dany to Westeros. (Her decision to head to Slavers Bay was in her first chapter of ASoS. Even if she'd started for Westeros in her first chapter in A Dance with Dragons, the other characters would have been heading for Meereen, if only because they wouldn't have much knowledge of her movements.)

This point is well taken. However, the Griff, young Griff "addition" or "already planned" story line seemed rushed. The reason i say this is because its almost as if the new developments were introduced and pretty much closed off in one book. Quentin - Here and then gone; Griff - Here and then struck with Grey scale; Young Griff - Here and then already thought to be a fake; Drogon, gone and then returns (i do like this story line though); Tyrion - almost dies twice; Jon - dead already?; Was it intentional that even though the story advanced past AFFC, we still didnt get Brienne's last word, even though she resurfaced. I was so looking forward to hearing "Dracarys" come out of Dany's mouth, was this forgotten or does she not need to say this phrase as the dragons are getting less tameable?; By her staying in Meereen, is she losing her wits, or is she over thinking her decisions trying not to be like her father "The Mad King"?

Question to some of the more knowledgeable GRRM fans than I.

It is known that GRRM read chapters from ADWD at events aside from the "official" Jon, Dany, and Tyrion chapters. Does anyone know if the Griff/Young Griff storylines were read at these events soon after AFFC was released, or later on within the last year or so?

From the "official" sample chapters, one could argue that it is on the same pace as AFFC, but the newer additions (i.e. Griff's) could have been the after thought. Just curious....

If this book was a Poker hand, i started off with AK suited. i've already invested in the pre flop, flop, and now i'm looking at top two pair. The turn (ADWD) didn't help my hand, but its still a good hand. I just hope I don't get rivered.

 

[The Imp]

This is understood. The early success i was referring to was up to ASOS, prior to the AFFC/ADWD meereneese knot dilemma. (when ASOIAF hit its peak so to speak)

Even though he planned AFFC,ADWD, TWOW, and ADOS it seems that the end up til this point is nowhere in sight. (or should i say, with too many open ended options for GRRM to take it where ever he chooses to). Yes, i know, it's his story and he can do with it as he chooses. I just hope he doesn't "jump the shark". I can see him on his Harley, revving up his engine to all of the surrounding fans telling him "Go, Go, Go!"

I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that he doesnt have to pull a rabbit out of the hat, as the story was already on a awesome pace, even if he doesn't provide us with anymore jaw dropping events, which he appears to be trying to force.



This point is well taken. However, the Griff, young Griff "addition" or "already planned" story line seemed rushed. The reason i say this is because its almost as if the new developments were introduced and pretty much closed off in one book. Quentin - Here and then gone; Griff - Here and then struck with Grey scale; Young Griff - Here and then already thought to be a fake; Drogon, gone and then returns (i do like this story line though); Tyrion - almost dies twice; Jon - dead already?; Was it intentional that even though the story advanced past AFFC, we still didnt get Brienne's last word, even though she resurfaced. I was so looking forward to hearing "Dracarys" come out of Dany's mouth, was this forgotten or does she not need to say this phrase as the dragons are getting less tameable?; By her staying in Meereen, is she losing her wits, or is she over thinking her decisions trying not to be like her father "The Mad King"?

Question to some of the more knowledgeable GRRM fans than I.

It is known that GRRM read chapters from ADWD at events aside from the "official" Jon, Dany, and Tyrion chapters. Does anyone know if the Griff/Young Griff storylines were read at these events soon after AFFC was released, or later on within the last year or so?

From the "official" sample chapters, one could argue that it is on the same pace as AFFC, but the newer additions (i.e. Griff's) could have been the after thought. Just curious....

If this book was a Poker hand, i started off with AK suited. i've already invested in the pre flop, flop, and now i'm looking at top two pair. The turn (ADWD) didn't help my hand, but its still a good hand. I just hope I don't get rivered.

I remember starting a thread called "Who is on their way to Meereen?) *or something like that, and one of the respones was Griff. I stopped reading ym own thread at that point as I didn't want more information thatn the sample chapters, which i was kind of sorry i read. Griff was definitely known before the release of the book.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I remember starting a thread called "Who is on their way to Meereen?) *or something like that, and one of the respones was Griff. I stopped reading ym own thread at that point as I didn't want more information thatn the sample chapters, which i was kind of sorry i read. Griff was definitely known before the release of the book.

Yes, i know there were alot of Griff stuff going around prior to ADWD being released, and like yourself, i avoided those discussions as well.

My question is, were these "Griff" theories going on right after AFFC, say 2005 - 2008? Or did the "Griff" discussions start 2008-2011, when GRRM may have had a live reading of one of the "Griff" chapter at one of his events. I'm just trying to figure out was the "Griff" storyline pre-scrap/rewrite or post-scrap/rewrite.

Or am i missing something and "Griff" was mentioned in either "ASOS" or "AFFC"?

It's not really a big deal, just trying to find out what was added and what was the original plan.

 

[The Imp]

Yes, i know there were alot of Griff stuff going around prior to ADWD being released, and like yourself, i avoided those discussions as well.

My question is, were these "Griff" theories going on right after AFFC, say 2005 - 2008? Or did the "Griff" discussions start 2008-2011, when GRRM may have had a live reading of one of the "Griff" chapter at one of his events. I'm just trying to figure out was the "Griff" storyline pre-scrap/rewrite or post-scrap/rewrite.

Or am i missing something and "Griff" was mentioned in either "ASOS" or "AFFC"?

It's not really a big deal, just trying to find out what was added and what was the original plan.

To the best of my recollection, Griff was never mentioned in ASOS/AFFC. I don't know it for a fact, maybe someone that does can confirm, but it seems a virtual certainty that GRRM read a Griff chapter at some point.

 

[The Imp]

OK, this is the thread

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/529910-who-is-on-the-way-to-meereen.html

Werthead mentions griff and Young Griff, and said they were in chapters read at conventions.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

OK, this is the thread

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/529910-who-is-on-the-way-to-meereen.html

Werthead mentions griff and Young Griff, and said they were in chapters read at conventions.

Thanks for the link Imp! I guess my theory still stands until someone posts a link suggesting otherwise. Unless there's mention of Griff between 2005-2008, I'm going to assume it was the meereneese knot buster. It's fine either way because it's still going to be an awesome ending, even if it's bitter/sweet.

 

[vanslyke]

Even if the final book is the one that ties everything together, 1300 pages is enough to give me some closure.

 

[TK-421]

GRRM has said many times that he knows where he's going and the basics of what's going to happen. His problems have been that he seems to be the kind of person that, if you were to ask him the time of day, would provide you with the history of timepieces and plans to build various types of wristwaches. I aslo think he "falls in love" with certain characters and gives them more "air time" than their story really might deserve.

Having said that, one only needs to look at some of the forshadowing/prophecy in (especially) the early books to know that he absoultely knows where he's going, at least in a broad sense. While many have complained that books 4 and 5 didn't move the story far enough along, it seems to me that he has been setting the stage for the events that will occur in book 6. I'll also say that IMO, GRRM's worst day of writing is equal to almost anyone else's best day. He suffers from the unique problem of setting a bar that is so high (with aSoS and aGoT) that it will be hard to him to achieve that height again. It doesn't mean he's failed, it just means that his stuff is that good.

Imp: These are my thoughts as well. Very well said. Further confirmation that you are GRRM in disguise or his Assistant.

 

[The Imp]

Imp: These are my thoughts as well. Very well said. Further confirmation that you are GRRM in disguise or his Assistant.

Although I'm SLIGHTLY overweight, I'm way too svelte to pass myself off as GRRM , but perhaps i could apply for a job as his chief cheerleader, sans the pom poms and short skirt

 

[Ursa major]

For goodness' sake, TI, please keep the pom poms and - in particular - the skirt on!

(This is a family-friendly site, you know.)

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