(Spoiler Alert) Two books left

[garion77]

With so many unanswered questions and plots, how in the world is GRRM going to end the series satisfactory without rushing things? With so much happening, how can he pull everything together? Or is he going to leave some of the plots open? It's alot to bring together with just two books left...

I really can't see him finishing in two books. He will really need to stop all the side stories to bring everything together. Especially since Jon Connington and the new Targaryen was added to the story. The list of characters are growing with each book. And Dany still have a lot to learn about the Dragons and ruling. And she haven't even cross the see to the Seven Kingdoms.

The Iron Born is scattered everywhere and the plot seem to be getting larger. The Others is making their move and the NW don't even have the proper weapons to fight them.

I think it will be a mass killing of characters in the next two books with a rush to close the hanging plots or....

The series will end without solving all the issues of the Seven Kingdoms which make sense because the fight between good and evil will always continue...

 

[Culhwch]

I get the feeling he was moving pieces into place across the last two books, and hopefully he is set now to wrap it neatly and (somewhat) succinctly.

If he can recapture the form of the first three books, he shouldn't have too much trouble squeezing a lot of developments into around two thousand pages. Think about how much happened across those first three books - the plot moved well, and there were major developments lamost every other page. It was only this middle section that gained a bit of bloat. With any luck, Martin will get back to that kind of groove moving forward...

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Well, you have to realise that there are already pro-Targaryen forces in Westeros, as you yourself pointed out. I believe that this already goes a long way towards resolving the plot. Because I feel that Varys' words are true: That in the end, the common people will join the Targaryens again since they're sick and tired of the war. Say what you want, but not once was the entire realm at war in Aerys 2's time, save for the rebellion.

As a result, we've already come a long way.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

It does seem to be a lot to wrap up in 2 books but remember, all it takes sometimes is for one character to do something or set into motion an event that could wrap up quite a few things in one fell shwoop

 

[juleska]

Also let's not forget how quickly things moved in the earlier volumes. I was rereading passages of AGOT the other day when looking for a quote, and it struck me how *much* happened in that book despite it being about 2/3 the length of the following volume, and about half the length of every book after that.

I think we've got enough depth from the characters and the intricacies of the plotlines at this point that if GRRM took the Game of Thrones track he could wrap everything up just fine and we would feel satisfied with the result. I long thought that there was no way for Rowling to wrap up the Harry Potter series after Book 6 with only one more volume....but she did it. Keep the faith....it'll be fine.

 

[garion77]

Also let's not forget how quickly things moved in the earlier volumes. I was rereading passages of AGOT the other day when looking for a quote, and it struck me how *much* happened in that book despite it being about 2/3 the length of the following volume, and about half the length of every book after that.

I think we've got enough depth from the characters and the intricacies of the plotlines at this point that if GRRM took the Game of Thrones track he could wrap everything up just fine and we would feel satisfied with the result. I long thought that there was no way for Rowling to wrap up the Harry Potter series after Book 6 with only one more volume....but she did it. Keep the faith....it'll be fine.

I really liked how Rowling finished Harry Potter... But she started wrapping things up about 3 books back... And she didn't have nearly as many characters and sub plots as GRRM... It's still so much he hasn't explained such as the Others, the prophercies, AA, and so many other plots. It starting to remind me of Robert Jordan's WOT series. And those are at 13 or 14 books...

ADWD didn't move the story line forward in my opinion. He just started new ones. He could have taken care of the whole Cersai/Margery situation in ADWD... He could have finished the Brianna/Jamie whole saga in ADWD... Tyrion and Dany could have met in ADWD... Instead we had to read constantly about food and travel... The whole Tyrion chapters were about him eating, drinking, playing chess, and describing the areas he traveled....

Then he did the whole Stannis is dead and didn't resolve the Boltons situation. That battle could have been decided and finished and moved on to the rest of the war.

I didn't like the Dany chapters at all. She was drooling like a 16 year old girl (which she is) over the mercenary. I got tired of the whole story. Then the whole Harpy murders that was a waste of paper...

I just see a rush job coming...

 

[Pilpel]

I really liked how Rowling finished Harry Potter... But she started wrapping things up about 3 books back... And she didn't have nearly as many characters and sub plots as GRRM... It's still so much he hasn't explained such as the Others, the prophercies, AA, and so many other plots. It starting to remind me of Robert Jordan's WOT series. And those are at 13 or 14 books...

ADWD didn't move the story line forward in my opinion. He just started new ones. He could have taken care of the whole Cersai/Margery situation in ADWD... He could have finished the Brianna/Jamie whole saga in ADWD... Tyrion and Dany could have met in ADWD... Instead we had to read constantly about food and travel... The whole Tyrion chapters were about him eating, drinking, playing chess, and describing the areas he traveled....

Then he did the whole Stannis is dead and didn't resolve the Boltons situation. That battle could have been decided and finished and moved on to the rest of the war.

I didn't like the Dany chapters at all. She was drooling like a 16 year old girl (which she is) over the mercenary. I got tired of the whole story. Then the whole Harpy murders that was a waste of paper...

I just see a rush job coming...

Seems to me like you're using experience from other authors to analyse ADWD. From what I've seen so far, GRRM writes very differently, he's even brutal for an author. He kills his most beloved characters, and leaves us hanging for a whole book leaving half of the story untouched.

If there's anything I've learned about GRRM's writing is that even when you try to expect the unexpected you still fail to see what's coming. But that's also what I like about these books.

Personally, I hope it's not gonna end up like Harry Potter. It was just a stupid hollywood-ending

 

[juleska]

Well the critical difference between the HP books and these is the target audience, which clearly shows. I don't want to launch a debate about which series is better, I loved them both for their own reasons. I only meant to make a correlation between two series that are 7 books in length based on a fictional world with a complex tapestry of characters. Rowling didn't tie off every single loose end, but her final book was still very satisfying for me as a fan.

I think GRRM has crafted a voluminous, nuanced world of characters and motivations so that when he does take the swift axe to the finish we will "feel" it that much more. Honestly, apart from the initial shock of it, how deeply were you affected by Ned's murder after only one book with him? Compare that to how we felt with Jon's cliffhanger. Forget about which was more shocking....which one was more emotionally engaging? I expect a whole lot of that in the last 2 books, just as the last volume of Harry Potter delivered one gut punch after the next with characters I'd grown to deeply love.*




*For god's sake, I wept like a baby when HEDWIG was killed!

 

[The Imp]

With so many unanswered questions and plots, how in the world is GRRM going to end the series satisfactory without rushing things? With so much happening, how can he pull everything together? Or is he going to leave some of the plots open? It's alot to bring together with just two books left...

I really can't see him finishing in two books. He will really need to stop all the side stories to bring everything together. Especially since Jon Connington and the new Targaryen was added to the story. The list of characters are growing with each book. And Dany still have a lot to learn about the Dragons and ruling. And she haven't even cross the see to the Seven Kingdoms.

The Iron Born is scattered everywhere and the plot seem to be getting larger. The Others is making their move and the NW don't even have the proper weapons to fight them.

I think it will be a mass killing of characters in the next two books with a rush to close the hanging plots or....

The series will end without solving all the issues of the Seven Kingdoms which make sense because the fight between good and evil will always continue...

you'll find a larger discussion of this topic here
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/532800-so-much-to-resolve-spoilers.html

 

[Tywin]

Honestly, apart from the initial shock of it, how deeply were you affected by Ned's murder after only one book with him? Compare that to how we felt with Jon's cliffhanger. Forget about which was more shocking....which one was more emotionally engaging

?

The Red Wedding got me a lot harder than either of these... Robb was the only chance that the world wasn't headed for absolute s**t with the "bad guys" always winning... and so the spiteful author destroyed him.

 

[garion77]

?

The Red Wedding got me a lot harder than either of these... Robb was the only chance that the world wasn't headed for absolute s**t with the "bad guys" always winning... and so the spiteful author destroyed him.

I agree. I liked Ned but he wasn't as important in my eyes as Robb. Robbs death was the hardest to me. Ned death was a suprise because how casually it was done... Not fighting bravely and dying on the battlefield but by a snot nose wimp...

Another death that was hard was lord Tywin... Not because I like him but I wanted to see either Jon/Dany/Blackfish/Stannis or anyone kick his butt on the battlefield. Lord Tywin had such a interesting and ruthless past and I wanted to see more of his history.

It was said Tywin held the Kingdom together doing the Mad King reign. And even in ADWD and all the books since his death, they still speak of him much more than Robb, Ned, Robert or any other dead characters.

Lord Tywin was the baddest man on the planet. His power and wealth is known even across the sea...

Roose Bolton said it best... Even in the North, Lord Tywin is feared...

 

[Tywin]

Lord Tywin was the baddest man on the planet. His power and wealth is known even across the sea...

Which is probably why GRR Martin killed him in such an ignominous way. Kind of a reminder that everyone is human. If we didn't pick up the irony, he has several of the characters comment on it.

 

[garion77]

Which is probably why GRR Martin killed him in such an ignominous way. Kind of a reminder that everyone is human. If we didn't pick up the irony, he has several of the characters comment on it.

Tywin died on the toilet by his own son's hand... And I remember what Jaime said... He seemed larger than life while alive but so small while dead... I like GRRM view about powerful people in general... Death is death whether you are Lord Tywin or a simple peasant...

And by Vary's words in ADWD, he was behind the death of Tywin. He helped push Tyrion to killing his father. Making Tyrion think the idea was his...

But I would have loved to see Tywin facing off against Dany or Jon... Or how Tywin would have handled Jon Connington return?

In one of Connington's memories he stated how if Lord Tywin had surrounded Robert in the battle of the Bells, the war would have been over with Robert's bones greeting Ned Stark.

Even as a boy, Lord Tywin was a badass... He had the Freys living in fear And Roose Bolton himself didn't want to mess with him. Only the Starks, Tyrells, and Baratheons wasn't afraid of him...

 

[viZion]

Tywin died on the toilet by his own son's hand... And I remember what Jaime said... He seemed larger than life while alive but so small while dead... I like GRRM view about powerful people in general... Death is death whether you are Lord Tywin or a simple peasant...

And by Vary's words in ADWD, he was behind the death of Tywin. He helped push Tyrion to killing his father. Making Tyrion think the idea was his...

But I would have loved to see Tywin facing off against Dany or Jon... Or how Tywin would have handled Jon Connington return?

In one of Connington's memories he stated how if Lord Tywin had surrounded Robert in the battle of the Bells, the war would have been over with Robert's bones greeting Ned Stark.

Even as a boy, Lord Tywin was a badass... He had the Freys living in fear And Roose Bolton himself didn't want to mess with him. Only the Starks, Tyrells, and Baratheons wasn't afraid of him...

I think the whole point is that Tywin really wasn't that much of a badass. He had the illusion of power. I think that's a major theme throughout the series and especially in ADWD. We learn in ADWD that there are far greater forces in control of the world than mere Lords of the Seven Kingdoms. Varys has killed two Hands now and I'd bet he had a major hand in killing Jon Arryn as well. I'll grant you that Tywin was clever enough to be a pain in the ass to the people who are really controlling the events of the world. That's why he had to go.

I've pointed out before that Varys didn't kill Cersei because she's harmless. I know everyone hates her and wants Arya to kill her but, really, Cersei is so insignificant. Varys and Illyrio have big plans and Cersei's bungling was probably inadvertently helping them. Now that Kevan is dead maybe Cersei makes a come back to power. That's probably really what Varys wanted to accomplish by murdering Kevan. Cersei makes the Kingdom weak and that will make it even easier for Dany to take over once she arrives.

The real question is why Varys and the other major forces want the Targaryens back in power?

 

[The Imp]

I've pointed out before that Varys didn't kill Cersei because she's harmless. I know everyone hates her and wants Arya to kill her but, really, Cersei is so insignificant. Varys and Illyrio have big plans and Cersei's bungling was probably inadvertently helping them. Now that Kevan is dead maybe Cersei makes a come back to power. That's probably really what Varys wanted to accomplish by murdering Kevan. Cersei makes the Kingdom weak and that will make it even easier for Dany to take over once she arrives.

I see Cersei as being an important part of thie rplans, and rather than harmless, she's very helpful.This quote syas it all

but you were threatening to undo all the queen’s good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen’s rule. So …”

 

[garion77]

I think the whole point is that Tywin really wasn't that much of a badass. He had the illusion of power. I think that's a major theme throughout the series and especially in ADWD. We learn in ADWD that there are far greater forces in control of the world than mere Lords of the Seven Kingdoms. Varys has killed two Hands now and I'd bet he had a major hand in killing Jon Arryn as well. I'll grant you that Tywin was clever enough to be a pain in the ass to the people who are really controlling the events of the world. That's why he had to go.

I've pointed out before that Varys didn't kill Cersei because she's harmless. I know everyone hates her and wants Arya to kill her but, really, Cersei is so insignificant. Varys and Illyrio have big plans and Cersei's bungling was probably inadvertently helping them. Now that Kevan is dead maybe Cersei makes a come back to power. That's probably really what Varys wanted to accomplish by murdering Kevan. Cersei makes the Kingdom weak and that will make it even easier for Dany to take over once she arrives.

The real question is why Varys and the other major forces want the Targaryens back in power?

Maybe because Vary actually love the Seven Kingdom and want to see it survivor... Vary saw how badly Robert ran the Kingdom and I believe really wanted Ned to be in charge... Maybe Vary know of the coming of the Others... I don't see how he wouldn't...

I remember Littlefinger saying Cersei is doing exactly what he expected and destroying herself faster than he could have imagined.

Vary is doing what's best for the Seven Kingdoms. Maybe he know that Dragons is the only path to victory against the Others. And the only people that control Dragons is the Targaryens...

 

[viZion]

Vary is doing what's best for the Seven Kingdoms. Maybe he know that Dragons is the only path to victory against the Others. And the only people that control Dragons is the Targaryens...

I must admit this is a good point. It's possible that all of this political intrigue orchestrated by Illyrio and Varys is all part of some huge war with the Others and not really about petty land squabbles. It certainly would make a lot of sense. Nice thought.

 

[Coragem]

Personally, I'd like to see him tie up the series satisfactorily, AND THEN there is masses of scope for stand alone novels that can fill in detail -- so many characters whose stories he can go back and tell, or retell.

I think attempting to fully explore ALL the characters stories within the overall story arc is asking too much. Especially since this isn't an author who likes to drive forward plot progression. He takes his time developing the environment and the characters, and that's why we love him.

Coragem.

 

[garion77]

Personally, I'd like to see him tie up the series satisfactorily, AND THEN there is masses of scope for stand alone novels that can fill in detail -- so many characters whose stories he can go back and tell, or retell.

I think attempting to fully explore ALL the characters stories within the overall story arc is asking too much. Especially since this isn't an author who likes to drive forward plot progression. He takes his time developing the environment and the characters, and that's why we love him.

Coragem.

I agree. I really like how GRRM take his time to develop and redevelop his characters. I like how he carefully built his world. I can't see him tying everything down in just two books.

It might just be wishful thinking but I hope he add one or even two more books to the series. I really don't want the ride to end. I love Westoros and the world and characters GRRM created.

 

[TPA]

I agree, he will wrap up the story with many POVs unfinished, then use those to write side story books and prequels.