Manga, love it or hate it!

[Mladen]

Hello all, curious to throw this out to you guys and girls.

I host a comics podcast, this week we'll be doing a beginner's guide to manga. Recommendations, advice, and where to start (& where NOT to start).

Anyway, the questions for you folks:
For fans of manga: Why do you read it? How is it different from western comics, and what aspects of it do you find unique or unusual?

For critics of manga: Voice your problems with it! What do you dislike and why? Be as honest and critical as you want.

And everyone in between: What would you like to know? Looking for a certain type of book? Things you wanted to know but were afraid to ask?

Thank you, hope to get some interesting comments/criticisms/questions!
Queries/comments will be read out and responded to on the show, and here!

 

[HareBrain]

I haven't looked in-depth at any recent ones apart from Fullmetal Alchemist, but my main gripe from browsing the shelves is that they now all look like they've been drawn by the same artist (or rather, by the same computer), in the same crisp, clinical, fantastically dull style. And they seem to take forever to get anywhere. So I'd like recommendations for distinctive and original artwork, and a pace that doesn't take five volumes to cover what in a novel would be a single chapter.

 

[Mladen]

my main gripe from browsing the shelves is that they now all look like they've been drawn by the same artist (or rather, by the same computer), in the same crisp, clinical, fantastically dull style.

You definitely have a point there, there's a certain sameness to a lot of the art, and a lot of that comes from the way its produced, usually with a team of assistants and a VERY tight publishing schedule. Most books are done by a single artist/writer, and often the art just isn't up to a standard. Of course there are a lot of artists which do wildly different things, but it doesn't negate the fact that there is a style which is expected in these books.

Superhero comics definitely have the very same problem. There isn't much difference between Kenneth Rocafort, Jim Lee, David Finch, etc, since there's an expectation within the readership that the comics have to look a certain way. I have no doubt that a Japanese manga reader would think that all western comics look alike, and they generally do.

I don't necessarily think its a weakness in genre-fiction. The art isn't supposed to distract from the story, there's an overall expectation of the publisher to deliver certain types of books, and no publisher wants to take a risk by publishing something which looks too wildly different from their most popular titles.

But I mainly agree with you, most of the art (especially in the popular books) looks very samey. Isn't helped by the fact that they can't disguise their art with wildly different coloring styles, since most of it is in black and white.

And they seem to take forever to get anywhere. So I'd like recommendations for distinctive and original artwork, and a pace that doesn't take five volumes to cover what in a novel would be a single chapter.

If you want to look at some manga artists whose style stands out for being quite different, have a look at Yuichi Yokoyama, Motofumi Kobayashi, Taiyo Matsumoto, Naoki Urasawa (more of a subtle difference, but his character faces are very diverse), Seiichi Hayashi, Akira Hiromoto, and maybe Tsutomu Nihei.

As for pace, I mostly agree, too many manga DRAAAAAG on.
Any more than 10 volumes of anything, and you've usually lost me. Most manga stop at around that length, which even that is too long.
Of the ones done in less than 3 volumes, and packing a lot of well-paced story, I'd recommend:
UZUMAKI by Junji Ito (a horror book, with a 'twist'... fans of the book will enjoy that pun)
TEKKONKINKREET by Taiyo Matsumoto
GHOST IN THE SHELL by Masamune Shirow is a pretty brisk read also

 

[Metryq]

too many manga DRAAAAAG on.

I've noticed that some manga have a "cinematic" style where one can follow the action almost like viewing the "key frames" of an animation. That will take up a lot of page space.

The key to action photography is capturing that one frame that defines the scene.

A hero comic from the West might compress several seconds into one frame. For example, the hero's fist might already be past the point of the bad guy's chin, and the bad guy is arched back, his hands in the air, and a pistol flying from his grip. Yet the word bubble over the bad guy might be, "You'll never stop me, Son of Jor El!" At the same time, Superman will be replying, "I am honor-bound to stop you! And the bad guy never wins in the funny papers!"—all in one frame.

Savoring each moment of a scene versus Rush! Rush! Rush!

A difference in styles.

 

[Connavar]

I haven't looked in-depth at any recent ones apart from Fullmetal Alchemist, but my main gripe from browsing the shelves is that they now all look like they've been drawn by the same artist (or rather, by the same computer), in the same crisp, clinical, fantastically dull style. And they seem to take forever to get anywhere. So I'd like recommendations for distinctive and original artwork, and a pace that doesn't take five volumes to cover what in a novel would be a single chapter.

I have read 100s of mangas and cant agree with you. The stuff you talk about are shonen the so callled boy manga. Those are the most popular among manga kids and they dominate the comic store just like superhero dominate american comics.

There are many quality adult mangas that dont look like the kids mangas. You have to look for them.

FMA is pretty mature for teenage,kids manga. There are many other genres in manga.

Stuff like Naruto is what you talk about and is the worst version of manga.

 

[Mladen]

I have read 100s of mangas and cant agree with you. The stuff you talk about are shonen the so callled boy manga. Those are the most popular among manga kids and they dominate the comic store just like superhero dominate american comics.

You cannot honestly say that most manga art, whoever its aimed at, doesn't fit within those certain sets of artistic constraints which make up the 'modern' manga style (its not fair to bring up artists from the 70s etc, since they had different 'common' styles back then). Shojo and Shonen manga's chief difference is an approach in shading and line-weights, but the arrangement and composition of faces and bodies is very similar. Tsutomu Nihei is often given as an example of a 'different' artist, but although he has a wildly different approach to how he inks and fills in his scenes and story (which is why i suggest him), the way he draws his faces is very similar to how just about every manga-ka does.

Its a difficult thing to overcome as a reader, but the focus in manga is often on the story, or getting you hooked on the drama enough to keep buying copies. It assumes you're already familiar with the look of the art.

Much of it is because of a particular 'inked' look, often with similar line weights etc... and this is because most manga art is 'finished' by inkers and colourists who all work within the same studio, and yes, use a computer to do so. Its a problem to do with the publishers, but more to do with manga readers in Japan and elsewhere, who lets face it, WANT their manga to look a certain way and simply won't read a title if it looks too different. There is a market in Japan for underground and alternative manga (by guys like Yuichi Yokoyama, etc), but its tiny, and not at all supported by manga readers there or most so-called manga fans in the west.

I suspect that if you were able to add digital colouring and colour variation to the equation for manga, a lot of the (justified) complaint that 'manga looks the same' would disappear, since of course most superhero comics looks pretty much the same to an outsider also.

 

[Mladen]

I've noticed that some manga have a "cinematic" style where one can follow the action almost like viewing the "key frames" of an animation. That will take up a lot of page space.

The key to action photography is capturing that one frame that defines the scene.

A hero comic from the West might compress several seconds into one frame. For example, the hero's fist might already be past the point of the bad guy's chin, and the bad guy is arched back, his hands in the air, and a pistol flying from his grip. Yet the word bubble over the bad guy might be, "You'll never stop me, Son of Jor El!" At the same time, Superman will be replying, "I am honor-bound to stop you! And the bad guy never wins in the funny papers!"—all in one frame.

Savoring each moment of a scene versus Rush! Rush! Rush!

A difference in styles.

Absolutely a difference in pace, and much of that is because manga-ka are often writing for the screen... They hope and expect if their manga is a hit, there'll be an anime based on it, so it makes sense that their writing almost reads like a storyboard.

But I'd say that modern superhero comics are now so decompressed that they're approaching manga levels, which is a direct influence which manga has made on american comics. Similar to how American action films have really taken and run with the ideas of eastern film-makers like John Woo. The two aren't as different now as they were, and I like to think Manga is returning the favour from when it borrowed from the west in the 1940s/50s.

The difference these days isn't how the action presented, but that Action scenes in Super-comics actually show less hits/punches. Fights are resolved in fewer physical moves, wheras a manga battle might take several issues because there are far more blows being exchanged (though I admit that manga has a specific problem with using LONG character flashbacks in the middle of major fight scenes... looking at you, 'Vagabond').

 

[Connavar]

Of course they have in common how they draw japanese people. Its like how most american comics have certain look for people, how on tv you see mostly skinny, sexy people,faces.

Yeah not all manga is supported in the west, its few north american companies that decide what to sell here. There are alot of big genres in Japan that doesnt make it here and its not only alternative mangas that doesnt make it here. Japanese publishers dont care about western fanbase, they sell 100s of million of one famous manga in Asia.

You want manga variety, support the few different mangas that make it to the west and be a pirate and download the mangas that will never make it over here !

To your question why do you read it ?

Same reason i read creative american,european comics. I like good, original art and different style in writing, story. I dont care where a comic series comes from Japan or US. Manga i follow my fav creators and my fav genres. Genre wise its much bigger than western comics even if shonen genre dominate.

I like the variety in genres just like in european comics. You can read wierd SF,fantasy,horror stories. You can even read social realism, mundane stories like Tatsumi, other mangaka like him.

Only problem with manga field is that they dont license many new mangas that isnt superhero boy manga. I like to read more great mangas in book form and not download them because they are untranslated to english volumes.

 

[Metryq]

Its like how most american comics have certain look for people, how on tv you see mostly skinny, sexy people,faces.

Actually, my mom commented on that while watching some BBC shows on PBS. "This is so different from Hollywood. The English aren't afraid to put ugly people on TV."

(The actors weren't "ugly"—well, maybe one or two stood out. But it made me laugh because many of the actors looked like "common" everyday people, rather than fashion models.)

"american comics have certain look for people"

Yeah, ripped even tighter than Arnold ever looked at his best. And all women start at double-D and go up from there.

 

[CyBeR]

I think the discussion on comics is a bit too centered here on the superhero genre. I mean, if you look at things like what Vertigo puts out, you can see some very different types of storytelling and of action.
Metryq, I'm mainly referring to your last statement here, but if you consider that how things are usually you may wish to look through stuff like Transmetropolitan or Y: The last man or Fables or 100 Bullets or, I dunno, Pride of Baghdad. What I'm saying is that considering just the large segment of comics that is represented by the superhero crowd is actually doing a disservice to the whole medium as it struggles for relevance in this day and age. And with some stranger stuff on the table like A contract with God, The age of Marvels and many other such comics, it's a shame to not include them into these discussions.

I've just read 61 volumes of One Piece. I've read them almost with no pause (except for courses and time with my girlfriend), but nonetheless I've read like there was no tomorrow. It's the first manga I read ... and it was awesome.
Sure, the story dragged at times...or rather, the action dragged, but the overall plot has been very dynamic and fun to watch. Sure, some battles have been stinkers and some enemies have been a chore to watch, but it was entertaining. Especially towards the last 20 volumes I must say I that events had gotten so interesting that I was actually considering not sleeping some nights just so I would not have to stop reading.
And this is exactly what I want out of manga. I want a gripping story that really does not dwaddle, does not skimp on characterization or action, but which keeps on going to new and interesting places. And One Piece does that ROYALLY.

 

[Mladen]

@CyBer - We can surely do better than pointing to Vertigo for non-super books, but I think the point would be that THE most visible and popular type of comic in the English-speaking work is Superheroes, and compares well to the most popular kind of comic in Japan, which is to say, they're both pretty vapid. But the kind of guys I know who love Superhero comics, HATE manga for reasons which they forgive in their caped crusaders (identical storylines/tropes, robots, t&a, samey & dull art).

I recently had a chance to read the first couple of volumes of One Piece. I very much enjoyed it more than I thought I would. It keeps coming up with amusing surprises and ideas, and story, though I can tell it will drag on, moves at a good clip so that its easily the kind of comic you could pick up an issue of now and then and still keep your interest.

@Metryq - Yeop, superhero comics look like what I expect to see in an upmarket Los Angeles gym, or a boy's clubhouse with "no fat chicks" painted on the door.

 

[Connavar]

To me genres dont matter. Monthly i read Scalped from Vertigo, Walking Dead,Near Death who also isnt superhero. I also read Batman,Daredevil because they are good versions of superhero.

Same for manga i read FMA,One Piece because its awesome version of shonen manga. Rest of the manga i are read are other genres like samurai,thrillers.

Quality is what we look for.

I dont care about people who think all american comics are generic superhero or all manga is Naruto,Bleach.

 

[Metryq]

@Metryq - Yeop, superhero comics look like what I expect to see in an upmarket Los Angeles gym

The thing is, all characters seem to be drawn this way, not just the "superheroes." Take a look at the Time Traveler in the Classics Illustrated The Time Machine:

Page 20
Page 35

The original novel never gives a name for the Time Traveler, or even his age. In my mind's eye, I never imagined him to have a neck as thick as his head, broad shoulders, narrow hips, bulging thighs, and a curling forelock like Superman or Michael Whelan's John Carter.

("Time Traveler, what is good in life?"

"To crush the Morlocks, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women!")

I loved the artwork in the original Gunnm (Battle Angel Alita). Gally/Alita was a deceptively petite female cyborg. Then came the "reboot," Last Order, a never-ending "shaggy dog" story where Gally/Alita has been turned into a female weight-lifter. I had to double-check the cover to see if an American artist had been hired.

 

[Connavar]

You need to read The Walking Dead, Queen & Country,Stumptown, The Killer, Torpedo,Scalped.

Thats only few of the many comics right now published in US comics market that draws people that might look awesome in scenes but look like real people. Look like the realistic looking people in British tv shows.


The thing about Battle Angel Alita sounds too much generalization. Americans are not the only ones like that. The japanese comics has as much cheesecake, super model bodies in their popular genres like shonen, action genres. Alita is one of those genres.

Its the more realistic manga that draw regular people look.

 

[Mladen]

This is great, thanks everyone for the comments and critiques etc! Its nice to see some passionate discussion on the topic
We tried to cover all of points raised here on the show, I think we got an interesting discussion out of it.

Check out the podcast episode if you feel so inclined:
http://extrasequential.com/2011/10/21/exseq-ep-63-manga-for-beginners/

 

[chongjasmine]

I like manga because of their artistic style, and some deep themes that can be explored in it. The only complaint I have is that manga is in black and white and not colored.