Hey everyone, new here, haven't posted a lot on ASoIaF since I'm just finishing ADWD but I had a few things I'd like to share.
I would like to present a theory on the origins and motivations of the Others. However, it goes somewhat hand in hand with a theory on some of the religions of the Ice and Fire story as well, so first I would like to put forth that theory first: simply put, the gods as they are literally described simply may not exist. Magic certainly exists, but the particular religions seem more rooted in cultural evolution than the existence of deities. There really isn't any convincing evidence that any of the espoused deities exist--from R'hllor to the Great Other, the Drowned God to the Seven, or the God of Many Faces to the Great Shepherd. Excluding R'hllor/the Great Other and the Old Gods we see a direct cultural relationship involved with each religion. The Drowned God presides over a violent, island dwelling, seafaring people. The God of Many Faces over a cultural melting pot formed as a colony many other cultures fleeing Valyrian expansion (and also a religion with access to magic, just to show that magic isn't limited to the more "mysterious" religions). The Seven over a feudal and technologically advanced culture that reigns over, oddly enough, seven kingdoms (yes, I know, the Seven came with the Andal invasion, but its still a convenient fit and who knows how the religion may have evolved post Westerosi-Andal expansion). The Great Shepherd over peaceful farmers and shepherds with a large population of lambs and sheep. We know the Rhoynar worshiped river-Gods before adopting the Seven as well, which makes sense as their culture originated on one of the world's greatest rivers.
The Old Gods are unique in that the religion isn't in fact deistic. The Old Gods aren't unique, individual entities; but almost a term for pantheistic spirituality. And regardless, this was the religion of the Children of the Forest, and thus we are far removed from access to its potential cultural origins.
Now, none of this is to say there may not be forces guiding these religious movements, be they natural or supernatural or magic, just that the Gods themselves as they are represented by men seem more likely to be ideological personifications than tangible deities. We frequently hear members of every religion prominent in the stories complain about how the Gods don't seem to really play a role in any of the events and question their motives or even doubt their existence.
Now for the Others--R'hllor and the Great Other, so far as we can tell, originate in Asshai, the highly mysterious land in the far east we know very little about directly. I suspect that perhaps the Others actually originated in the Shadow beyond Asshai. They only appear at night and in the cold, and though we have no real indication of the temperature of the Shadow, its somewhat intuitive that a land covered in darkness would be naturally cold. At some point before men had spread throughout the world, or perhaps before they even existed, there was a very long winter (henceforth referred to as a "superwinter"), and the Others were able to migrate west. They crossed the Arm of Dorne and into Westeros. Eventually, however, the seasons turned again, and the Others in Westeros were too far from the Shadow to return home, and instead fled to the coldest region of Westeros--the North. Centuries past before the next superwinter and their next opportunity to leave Westeros, and by the time it finally came, Westeros was inhabited by the Children of the Forest and the First Men. What ensued was what historians refer to as the "Long Night," and as the Others were so alien to the CotF and First Men and their language so different, war became inevitable, specifically the "War for the Dawn". Eventually, the Others were thrown back into the North.
If this is the case, it is likely the people native to Asshai have also encountered the Others (assuming there are still some there), or did at one time. They wouldn't have had the Wall to protect them, or the changing of the seasons due to the proximity to the Shadow. Instead, presumably, they cultivated magic surrounding light and fire, which seeped its way into their culture and become the foundation for the religion of R'hllor. They may have even built a magical barrier similar to the Wall to protect themselves from the inhabitants of the Shadow. I would have to re-read to make sure, but I seem to remember an implication of volcanic activity in Asshai/the Shadow, and the implication that there may be dragons there. Perhaps whatever magic the Asshai'i used also had some part in the Doom of Valyria (another time though, perhaps).
Even further, the legend of Azor Ahai comes from the east, even though its always assumed (though, to my knowledge, never explicitly stated) to be about events that took place in Westeros. This always struck me as a bit odd, but what if Azor Ahai was Asshai'i and was involved in fighting the Others in the far east and never had anything to do with Westeros? The names "Azor Ahai" and "Nissa Nissa" certainly don't seem to be rooted in the Old Tongue of the First Men, which is where they would have been descended if they were indeed figures of the War for the Dawn, since the First Men were the only Men in Westeros at the time (unless, of course, they were CotF, whose language isn't distinguishable to men, and thus the names would have to be First Men interpretations anyway). More Likely, the war simply ended as the seasons changed and the Others hadn't progressed far enough to think about moving East and had to retreat North, and were then cut off with the construction of the Wall.
Even further, no one from Westeros has been able to cross the Sunset Sea (off the western coast of Westeros) and return. Perhaps this is because doing so would lead one into the Shadow lands and an encounter with its inhabitants--the Others, not to mention potentially harsh climates.
What got me thinking about a lot of this was the Bran and Melisandre chapters in ADWD. Melisandre has a vision at one point where she sees a figure with "A thousand eyes [and one]" and a boy with a "wolf's head," clearly referencing Bloodraven and Bran. She also seems fairly certain they are agents of "the Great Other." However, Bran and Bloodraven are aligned with the CotF (not to mention attacked by Wights, though Wights may simply attack any warm blooded creatures), who were against the Others during the War for the Dawn. So, maybe the CotF were forced north of the Wall following the Andal invasion. Perhaps over the centuries, they found a way to communicate with the weakened Others and have formed a truce, and now with another superwinter on the horizon, intend to try and help the Others return home peacefully, with help from Bran and his gifts. Thus, Melisandre may simply be misguided in accurately predicting Bran is aligned with the Others, but assuming his/their intent is malevolent. The Priesthood of R'hllor are slaves sold shortly after birth, so her perspective is stilted by religious zealotry she's had imprinted on her since she was a child. This is perhaps an incidental cost of her magical abilities as well.
Of course, a lot of this is making some pretty big leaps in assumption without a huge amount of evidence, but I can't find anything to contradict much of it. I have more to come in all likelihood, but this is about all I got in me at the moment. Anyone have any thoughts?
I would like to present a theory on the origins and motivations of the Others. However, it goes somewhat hand in hand with a theory on some of the religions of the Ice and Fire story as well, so first I would like to put forth that theory first: simply put, the gods as they are literally described simply may not exist. Magic certainly exists, but the particular religions seem more rooted in cultural evolution than the existence of deities. There really isn't any convincing evidence that any of the espoused deities exist--from R'hllor to the Great Other, the Drowned God to the Seven, or the God of Many Faces to the Great Shepherd. Excluding R'hllor/the Great Other and the Old Gods we see a direct cultural relationship involved with each religion. The Drowned God presides over a violent, island dwelling, seafaring people. The God of Many Faces over a cultural melting pot formed as a colony many other cultures fleeing Valyrian expansion (and also a religion with access to magic, just to show that magic isn't limited to the more "mysterious" religions). The Seven over a feudal and technologically advanced culture that reigns over, oddly enough, seven kingdoms (yes, I know, the Seven came with the Andal invasion, but its still a convenient fit and who knows how the religion may have evolved post Westerosi-Andal expansion). The Great Shepherd over peaceful farmers and shepherds with a large population of lambs and sheep. We know the Rhoynar worshiped river-Gods before adopting the Seven as well, which makes sense as their culture originated on one of the world's greatest rivers.
The Old Gods are unique in that the religion isn't in fact deistic. The Old Gods aren't unique, individual entities; but almost a term for pantheistic spirituality. And regardless, this was the religion of the Children of the Forest, and thus we are far removed from access to its potential cultural origins.
Now, none of this is to say there may not be forces guiding these religious movements, be they natural or supernatural or magic, just that the Gods themselves as they are represented by men seem more likely to be ideological personifications than tangible deities. We frequently hear members of every religion prominent in the stories complain about how the Gods don't seem to really play a role in any of the events and question their motives or even doubt their existence.
Now for the Others--R'hllor and the Great Other, so far as we can tell, originate in Asshai, the highly mysterious land in the far east we know very little about directly. I suspect that perhaps the Others actually originated in the Shadow beyond Asshai. They only appear at night and in the cold, and though we have no real indication of the temperature of the Shadow, its somewhat intuitive that a land covered in darkness would be naturally cold. At some point before men had spread throughout the world, or perhaps before they even existed, there was a very long winter (henceforth referred to as a "superwinter"), and the Others were able to migrate west. They crossed the Arm of Dorne and into Westeros. Eventually, however, the seasons turned again, and the Others in Westeros were too far from the Shadow to return home, and instead fled to the coldest region of Westeros--the North. Centuries past before the next superwinter and their next opportunity to leave Westeros, and by the time it finally came, Westeros was inhabited by the Children of the Forest and the First Men. What ensued was what historians refer to as the "Long Night," and as the Others were so alien to the CotF and First Men and their language so different, war became inevitable, specifically the "War for the Dawn". Eventually, the Others were thrown back into the North.
If this is the case, it is likely the people native to Asshai have also encountered the Others (assuming there are still some there), or did at one time. They wouldn't have had the Wall to protect them, or the changing of the seasons due to the proximity to the Shadow. Instead, presumably, they cultivated magic surrounding light and fire, which seeped its way into their culture and become the foundation for the religion of R'hllor. They may have even built a magical barrier similar to the Wall to protect themselves from the inhabitants of the Shadow. I would have to re-read to make sure, but I seem to remember an implication of volcanic activity in Asshai/the Shadow, and the implication that there may be dragons there. Perhaps whatever magic the Asshai'i used also had some part in the Doom of Valyria (another time though, perhaps).
Even further, the legend of Azor Ahai comes from the east, even though its always assumed (though, to my knowledge, never explicitly stated) to be about events that took place in Westeros. This always struck me as a bit odd, but what if Azor Ahai was Asshai'i and was involved in fighting the Others in the far east and never had anything to do with Westeros? The names "Azor Ahai" and "Nissa Nissa" certainly don't seem to be rooted in the Old Tongue of the First Men, which is where they would have been descended if they were indeed figures of the War for the Dawn, since the First Men were the only Men in Westeros at the time (unless, of course, they were CotF, whose language isn't distinguishable to men, and thus the names would have to be First Men interpretations anyway). More Likely, the war simply ended as the seasons changed and the Others hadn't progressed far enough to think about moving East and had to retreat North, and were then cut off with the construction of the Wall.
Even further, no one from Westeros has been able to cross the Sunset Sea (off the western coast of Westeros) and return. Perhaps this is because doing so would lead one into the Shadow lands and an encounter with its inhabitants--the Others, not to mention potentially harsh climates.
What got me thinking about a lot of this was the Bran and Melisandre chapters in ADWD. Melisandre has a vision at one point where she sees a figure with "A thousand eyes [and one]" and a boy with a "wolf's head," clearly referencing Bloodraven and Bran. She also seems fairly certain they are agents of "the Great Other." However, Bran and Bloodraven are aligned with the CotF (not to mention attacked by Wights, though Wights may simply attack any warm blooded creatures), who were against the Others during the War for the Dawn. So, maybe the CotF were forced north of the Wall following the Andal invasion. Perhaps over the centuries, they found a way to communicate with the weakened Others and have formed a truce, and now with another superwinter on the horizon, intend to try and help the Others return home peacefully, with help from Bran and his gifts. Thus, Melisandre may simply be misguided in accurately predicting Bran is aligned with the Others, but assuming his/their intent is malevolent. The Priesthood of R'hllor are slaves sold shortly after birth, so her perspective is stilted by religious zealotry she's had imprinted on her since she was a child. This is perhaps an incidental cost of her magical abilities as well.
Of course, a lot of this is making some pretty big leaps in assumption without a huge amount of evidence, but I can't find anything to contradict much of it. I have more to come in all likelihood, but this is about all I got in me at the moment. Anyone have any thoughts?
