Wait a second here...

[IWargedYourMother]

Since when does Azor Ahai, and the whole "The dragon has three heads" thing.. Have to be the same thing? Where does it ever say in any of the books that Azor Ahai, and the Three headed dragon.. Have ANYTHING to do with each other? Just putting that out there..

 

[The Imp]

Since when does Azor Ahai, and the whole "The dragon has three heads" thing.. Have to be the same thing? Where does it ever say in any of the books that Azor Ahai, and the Three headed dragon.. Have ANYTHING to do with each other? Just putting that out there..

Not sure what you're referring to here.Many think Jon is AA. Some think he may be one of the heads of the dragon, but i don;t remember anyone saying that he HAD to be both.

 

[Boaz]

Spoiler Alert for supernatural activity and the Targaryen family tree beyond AGOT...

There seem to be a number of prophecies out there. Azor Ahai reborn. The three heads of the dragon. The Prince or Princess that was promised. The Stallion who mounts the world. The Horn of Joramun. The common denominator is that there will be a leader (or leaders) who will lead their people to fulfill their destiny to rule the world.. or or at least shake off the chains of oppression.

In addition to these prophecies, it seems there are a number of peoples who have this same expectation though they might not have a prophecy. The Ironborn expect a ruler to lead them to plunder the world. The Ghiscari look to a leader to return them to super power status. The Undying of Qarth desire a return to glory. And I don't know what the people of Asshai want...

A prophecy means that there is a supernatural power or divine being working to fulfill it. Without supernatural backing, how can a prophecy come to fruition? A prophecy implies a higher intelligence.

So what evidence do we have of supernatural power? The Wall. Warging. The powers of the priests of R'hllor. Others. Blood magic. Dragons. Bran and Bloodraven looking through trees. It's not overpowering, but it's there.

What about divine intelligence? First, let me just discount the existence of an uncreated creator in ASOIAF cosmology. Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting an uncreated creator of our world... just that of ASOIAF. I mean GRRM could still reveal that the world of ASOIAF was created by a single omnipotent and holy being, but I doubt he will. Since there is no single creator, there must either be lesser divine powers or none at all. But we do see supernatural powers, so there must be some source to that.

Yet, I don't know that we've seen divine intelligence displayed on behalf of any people of ASOIAF. R'hllor's followers display power, but we only have their word for it's origins... and the actual displays seem more malign than benign. Necromancy, murder, human sacrifice...

So will the hidden divine beings show themselves?

The only prophecy seemingly tied to supernatural power is that of Azor Ahai reborn. Neither the three headed dragon, the stallion, nor TPTWP seem to have supernatural backing at this point.

So on to the original question...

Since when does Azor Ahai, and the whole "The dragon has three heads" thing.. Have to be the same thing? Where does it ever say in any of the books that Azor Ahai, and the Three headed dragon.. Have ANYTHING to do with each other? Just putting that out there..

TPTWP and the three headed dragon are both Targaryen prophecies. We know that Maester Aemon connected both of them with Dany before he died. That is the beginning of the linked prophecies. Now if the two go together, then we still need two more heads... and those heads must be of Targaryen blood.

Who are the other Targaryens out there? Aemon just died and Aegon just resurfaced. But from the example of Robert's bastards, there seem to be a few candidates who may be Targaryen bastards.

Jon is THE candidate. Jon ties in Ice to ASOIAF. He may be Fire as well, if Rhaegar is his father.

Other possible Targaryen bastards include Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Myrcella, Tommen, Darkstar, Aurane Waters, Brown Ben Plumm... But Jon is the real possibility... and Tyrion has an outside chance... the rest are just wild guesses.

What are the qualifications to become Azor Ahai reborn? To possess a magic sword of fire and light... and to have tempered his/her soul and sword by slaying his/her one true love. Well, Dany killed Drogo and birthed her dragons in his funeral pyre. And Jon was instrumental in killing Ygritte.

So Dany seems to fit Three Heads, TPTWP, and AAR. Jon may also fit all three. That's how I connect the prophecies... that's how some readers seem to think that they may in fact be one prophecy seen from different perspectives. If so... mayhaps there will be a greater divine being revealed.

 

[Tywin]

I think that we shouldn't discount GRRM's propensity for poking holes in things like reputations and prophecies.

GRRM seems to take a great amount of pleasure in doing this to us. He gets us all tied up in the plot of something and then kills the plot-line we are expecting in outrageously non-climatic fashion. For instance he spent three books building up the character of Tywin before having him get shot on the privy.

At the end you can imagine GRRM saying "What did you expect? This is how the real world works."

 

[The Imp]

I think that we shouldn't discount GRRM's propensity for poking holes in things like reputations and prophecies.

GRRM seems to take a great amount of pleasure in doing this to us. He gets us all tied up in the plot of something and then kills the plot-line we are expecting in outrageously non-climatic fashion. For instance he spent three books building up the character of Tywin before having him get shot on the privy.

At the end you can imagine GRRM saying "What did you expect? This is how the real world works."

Tywin was a minor character, and was never going to be more than that. I don't think GRRM made any great effort to build him up or make him anything more than he was. opionions as well as mileage will vary of course. GRRM does use foreshadowing, prophecy, etc. to lay the foundation for major events happening. These are easy to see in retrospect (TRW for instance) but not always easy to spot before the big event happens. I think that if someone has faith in GRRM's ability to craft ingenous plots they will believe that the whole AAR, TPTWP, 3 headed dragon will be resolved in a way that is both ingenious and at the same time "predictable". if someone (in a generic sense0 thinks he can't write that well, they probably haven't managed to get through close to 5k pages of books.

 

[Tywin]

I'm not arguing that he doesn't foreshadow things so that plot-lines can continue in the way that we would expect if we are paying attention, I think that what sets GRRM apart from other authors is that he often stands this on its head and does just the opposite (what, you were expecting the Young Wolf to Rally the North and fight the Ironmen? Hah!)

As for the example of Tywin, GRRM built up the persona of that character immensely. He was in the background of several plotlines as the standard that other leaders or villains were set against. He was the bogeyman, The Rains of Catamere (which I have to say is one of the nicest little touches that I've ever seen to bring depth to a fantasy world) is brought up incessantly. GRRM built Tywin up to be something that was larger than life just so he could make the point about expected plot and foreshadowing not predicating future events (as they would not in real life).

 

[The Imp]

I'm not arguing that he doesn't foreshadow things so that plot-lines can continue in the way that we would expect if we are paying attention, I think that what sets GRRM apart from other authors is that he often stands this on its head and does just the opposite (what, you were expecting the Young Wolf to Rally the North and fight the Ironmen? Hah!)

As for the example of Tywin, GRRM built up the persona of that character immensely. He was in the background of several plotlines as the standard that other leaders or villains were set against. He was the bogeyman, The Rains of Catamere (which I have to say is one of the nicest little touches that I've ever seen to bring depth to a fantasy world) is brought up incessantly. GRRM built Tywin up to be something that was larger than life just so he could make the point about expected plot and foreshadowing not predicating future events (as they would not in real life).

I completely agree that Tywin was depicted as being larger than life. I just not got the feeling that he was ever going to be anything other than what he was. IMO at leat, the evidence is that his death didn't really cause anyone to miss a beat, and life went on. Maybe this is because Kevan was there to act in his place (as the family Patriarch). I actually think that the loss of Kevan will have greater ramifications than the loss of Tywin, only becuase now there is no one to take over (as varys planned).

 

[Tywin]

No argument on the logical plot of how things should work out in Westeros, my comments are purely on the message being sent by the author, and the way that his thought process seems to work.

 

[Boaz]

Now the Lannisters do not have any family prophecy that we know of... but their sayings are not concerned with the past, but with fulfilling the present and future. "Hear me roar!" "As rich as a Lannister." "A Lannister always pays his debts." You could argue that the Lannisters actively promote their own future greatness... not quite a prophecy, but wishful thinking at the least.

 

[Needle]

There are many theories on all of theses prophecies AA, TPTWP, and the dragon with three heads. I don't see where it was ever said they were in any way connected, but as the story goes on they seem to be drawing together simply because there are only so many people who truly qualify for the positions! There are indeed lots of bastards and such floating around out there but to throw someone we don't even know into such positions of power by GRRM would piss off a lot of fans to say the least!

For AA: Jon is the leading contender right now, "I ask to see my king and all he shows me is Snow, we know it is not Stannis.
I think Brienne is also a possibility here.

TPTWP: As Aegon is no longer dead (we think or do we?)He has to take the lead here but personally I believe it to be Dany, dragons are whatever sex they choose.

As for the heads of the Dragon, I always felt they would be Dany, Jon, and Tyrion. Am not so sure now, I don't have my books here but the prophecy is something like I see the three headed dragon with you a small man casting a large shadow, roaring among them. I am beginning to think Tyrion will blow the horn to help control the dragons for others, as much as i would like for him to get a dragon it seems less likely. This leaves a hole for a dragon rider that I can't fill in.

I think it very possibly that Jon is AA and part of the three headed dragon and even just maybe TPTWP.

 

[Mesanna]

Maybe (probably!) I'm confused, but didn't GRRM confirm that AA and TPTWP are the same person? I was sure I read that somewhere.

 

[The Imp]

Maybe (probably!) I'm confused, but didn't GRRM confirm that AA and TPTWP are the same person? I was sure I read that somewhere.

i'm also fairly certain that this is true.

BTW, there's an interesting little line in the first Jon chapter that adds more proof to Stannis not being AA

Stannis drew the blade he called Lightbringer.

The addition of the word "he" in that sentence makes a huge difference.

 

[Koopa]

Needle, If that is true and Tyrion is definitely not a head of the dragon. one can presume he (will) meet all three of them and will have a profound affect on them all. Now we know:

1) Jon meet tyrion, through Tyrion he comes to see the NW for what it is, thus helping Jon (at the start) on his current path.
2) Jon meets Aegon, through his meeting with Tyrion, Aegon decides to forego meeting with Dany, instead launching his own invasion on Westeros. pretty significant change of plans that.
3) Tyrion will presumably meet dany. the one time they already somewhat met, was i think at the time when Drogon invaded the fighter pits, and dany ended up taking flight for the first time.

I'm gonna need to re-read adwd. Whilst the first part was dragging, the second part was full of stuff. the Unseen Battle of Winterfell, more about the others, more about the children of the forest, ... no time though.

 

[Needle]

Needle, If that is true and Tyrion is definitely not a head of the dragon. one can presume he (will) meet all three of them and will have a profound affect on them all. Now we know:

1) Jon meet tyrion, through Tyrion he comes to see the NW for what it is, thus helping Jon (at the start) on his current path.
2) Jon meets Aegon, through his meeting with Tyrion, Aegon decides to forego meeting with Dany, instead launching his own invasion on Westeros. pretty significant change of plans that.
3) Tyrion will presumably meet dany. the one time they already somewhat met, was i think at the time when Drogon invaded the fighter pits, and dany ended up taking flight for the first time.

I'm gonna need to re-read adwd. Whilst the first part was dragging, the second part was full of stuff. the Unseen Battle of Winterfell, more about the others, more about the children of the forest, ... no time though.

Kiwi, I of course am not sure of this but it seems to me that the prophecy puts him in the midst of the dragons yet not really one of them. You make some very good connections here, i knew he had done all these things but when you look at them all together like that maybe he is already casting that big shadow among them!

p.s. aDWD was to me much better the second time around!