Destiny of the Stark kids! (spoilers imminent)

[Tywin]

The whole Jon dies is revived and is free from his oath is juvenile to me. I like Martins books for the most part. I am not one of his fan boys. This last book was not worth the 6 year wait, but one thing I can say is that it was not juvenile. None of the books are. Their are all kinds of Fantasy books out there that suck for this very kind of thing. It would be better for Jon to just have had the balls to brake his oath and take what he wanted.

If he is alive he is not dead. Need not be any more complex than that. If one of the nights watch dies for one second is he free from his oath?

I would argue that they live in a world governed by magic. Literally, not figuratively.

It's been very clear that there is magic attached to the black brothers, and specifically to their oath (remember Sam passing through the gate under the wall?).

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

The whole Jon dies is revived and is free from his oath is juvenile to me. I like Martins books for the most part. I am not one of his fan boys. This last book was not worth the 6 year wait, but one thing I can say is that it was not juvenile. None of the books are. Their are all kinds of Fantasy books out there that suck for this very kind of thing. It would be better for Jon to just have had the balls to brake his oath and take what he wanted.

If he is alive he is not dead. Need not be any more complex than that. If one of the nights watch dies for one second is he free from his oath?

Again... He already did that. That was what got him stabbed a half dozen times...

 

[grip junky]

Again... He already did that. That was what got him stabbed a half dozen times...

When I had read that part of the book that is what I had first thought. I first came to this board because of Jon, I wanted to see what others thought of his death. After reading a bunch of posts here, I got, get that most think it was not him that died or that he knew some how he would be revived. Him dying was all some weaselly plan to get him out of the oath.

 

[grip junky]

I would argue that they live in a world governed by magic. Literally, not figuratively.

It's been very clear that there is magic attached to the black brothers, and specifically to their oath (remember Sam passing through the gate under the wall?).

By cpr or by magic dead is dead alive is alive.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

By cpr or by magic dead is dead alive is alive.

unfortunately with GRRM, it is not quite that black and white.

Is Uncat/Lady stoneheart alive, or dead? she WAS dead, for close to 3 days.

Berric died what, 7 times?

Coldhands is another story, the old gods only know how long he was dead or what his deal is.

what about Frankengreggor?

all the wights are dead too but that doesn't stop them from shambling around.

Martin has sufficiently blurred the lines between dead and alive. he also blurred the lines between undead and alive. Apart from Berric and Cat, none of these characters were resurrected the same way. (an argument could be made that Coldhands is a kind of wight but...). All the drowned men were technically dead too for a couple seconds, but while they were resurrected by pretty run-of-the-mill CPR, there is clearly a difference between being brought back by regular medicine and being brought back by Magic.

 

[grip junky]

unfortunately with GRRM, it is not quite that black and white.

Is Uncat/Lady stoneheart alive, or dead? she WAS dead, for close to 3 days.

Berric died what, 7 times?

Coldhands is another story, the old gods only know how long he was dead or what his deal is.

what about Frankengreggor?

all the wights are dead too but that doesn't stop them from shambling around.

Martin has sufficiently blurred the lines between dead and alive. he also blurred the lines between undead and alive. Apart from Berric and Cat, none of these characters were resurrected the same way. (an argument could be made that Coldhands is a kind of wight but...). All the drowned men were technically dead too for a couple seconds, but while they were resurrected by pretty run-of-the-mill CPR, there is clearly a difference between being brought back by regular medicine and being brought back by Magic.

If Jon is revived and he is still Jon Snow, he is not freed from his oath. The oath stands. If he is anything other than Jon Snow what would be the point, could he be king of the north in any other form. As it is now, I am not sure he could go back to the Nights Watch, but as some living dead thing I am sure that they would not take him back.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

If Jon is revived and he is still Jon Snow, he is not freed from his oath. The oath stands.If he is anything other than Jon Snow what would be the point, could he be king of the north in any other form. As it is now, I am not sure he could go back to the Nights Watch, but as some living dead thing I am sure that they would not take him back.

If he is Azor Ahai Reborn, that may very well BE the point...

also, you just said that if he comes back to life, he probably couldn't go back to the night's watch, which is exactly what people are saying here. He broke his oath, he died. If he comes back to life, he won't be accepted in the Night's watch which means he cannot be expected to keep his Oath (which he already broke) which means he will be freed from his oath. T

 

[grip junky]

If he is Azor Ahai Reborn, that may very well BE the point...

also, you just said that if he comes back to life, he probably couldn't go back to the night's watch, which is exactly what people are saying here. He broke his oath, he died. If he comes back to life, he won't be accepted in the Night's watch which means he cannot be expected to keep his Oath (which he already broke) which means he will be freed from his oath. T

No, the Nights Watch would have an obligation to kill him and make sure he stayed dead. That would be on their oath.

I knew Azor Asai would come up, I hope that is not how this ends up with Jon. What has been the best thing about the books to me so far is that they are not like any other fantasy books out there. If Jon does come back from the dead as Azor Asai, what was great about the books is lost they are just like every other fanasy book. The ******* who was not a ******* is reborn and saves the day. As a man and a ******* he was not good enough so had to die, now he is reborn how great. I think I have read that one before.

 

[Tywin]

The ******* who was not a ******* is reborn and saves the day. As a man and a ******* he was not good enough so had to die, now he is reborn how great. I think I have read that one before.

I'm with you, and I agree that these books are different than other stories because they really don't do that.

GRRM knows that's what we expect to happen, and he toys with us because of it. In the story, Jon finally had enough and took matters into his own hands. As a reader I was thinking "Hell yes, it's about time the hero realized that he has to save the day!" (I was also fearing darker things, because GRRM had taken us down that path before, but mainly I felt the good thing). Just when the reader feels like the hero is finally going to do some good "heroing" though, GRRM kills them. That is his pattern. He knows what we expect, and he derails it at a time that feels disorienting and wrong to us.

 

[grip junky]

I would like to just say one more thing. I do not think that most on here get what war and brotherhood is about. I do not know if you can understand it from just reading about it. The oath carrys so much more than what people think here. When I first read that last part of the book I thought Jon broke his oath, it was not till some of the threads here that I questioned that. So I am going to go with Jon broke the oath. Jon did not just brake his oath to some faceless organization, He broke his oath to his brothers. His men. Men who made him their leader. Men who would die for him. He did all that knowing what was coming from the other side of the wall. For anyone to think him killed and then revived somehow gets him out of his betrayal to his men, this thought is just over my head.

 

[Tywin]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

Actually, now that I look at the oath, I don't see any part of it that he has broken.

He took no wife.

I suppose he has won some glory, but I'm not sure how he could control that.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

Actually, now that I look at the oath, I don't see any part of it that he has broken.

He took no wife.

I suppose he has won some glory, but I'm not sure how he could control that.

He was planning on taking up arms agains the boltons, which, however you might view them, he took an oath to guard the realms of men, not attack them.

 

[Tywin]

He was planning on taking up arms agains the boltons, which, however you might view them, he took an oath to guard the realms of men, not attack them.

They have to kill men to guard the realms of men on a regular basis. So much so, in fact, that many of them have forgotten that their whole purpose for existence isn't killing wildlings.

A very easy argument (and probably a correct one) would be that the North would not be able to withstand an attack by the others while Boltons are in power.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

touche.

 

[Koopa]

@Tywin, you DARE make an easy argument

 

[Tywin]

@Tywin, you DARE make an easy argument

Ah, yes, I do.

To take the side of the Devil's Advocate here though, I would mention that whether or not the argument is correct (and I think it is based on his oath), his brothers in the Nights Watch don't seem to understand it that way.

Whether correct or not, many of the brothers took the oath to mean that they shouldn't attack the Boltons... hence a bunch of daggers in Jon's back.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

Actually, now that I look at the oath, I don't see any part of it that he has broken.

He took no wife.

I suppose he has won some glory, but I'm not sure how he could control that.

You could also argue that anything Jon does during daylight hours is fair game, so long as he holds to his oath at night.

 

[joshrackley]

You could also argue that anything Jon does during daylight hours is fair game, so long as he holds to his oath at night.

This gets into the question of the intended definition of "night" in the given context -- see The Long Night. Could refer to winters since that's when the White Walkers come.

 

[Tywin]

This gets into the question of the intended definition of "night" in the given context -- see The Long Night. Could refer to winters since that's when the White Walkers come.

That's a really good point.

Why, after all, are they the "Night's" watch? Otherwise it kind of implies that they don't guard the realms of men during the day.

Up in the far north on our world you can end up getting 6 months of darkness, maybe it's something similar (or far longer) on Westeros.

 

[Boaz]

Did not participate in this discussion before....

Bran is in position to wield power... either save the world or condemn it. As sweet of a boy as he was, he's falling into the same path as Joffrey, Dany, Jon, and every other child/teen in GRRM's mind. Given great power, Bran lacks real experience and a moral compass to apply this power fairly. While not being a sadist like Joffrey, he'll respond emotionally like Dany.... not that this is a quality only for children. Though highly intelligent, Catelyn and Tyrion both act much more on emotions than reason. I can imagine Bran doing some horrible things.... like performing genocide upon the Wildlings, the Maesters, Lannisters, or Boltons. Anyway, I can see Bran saving the world like Tyrion saved KL... by killing men in their thousands.

Rickon will die. Mayhaps like in the show, but GRRM will not let the Starks survive in the male line. Shaggy may survive to terrorize the North.

Arya will not survive either. She's a liability to everyone, even the House of Black and White. Undoutedly, Arya will kill many people. I think her arc will show her experience in not using her power to kill men like Weese and Chiswyck (even though they're on her list), but to deal with the people who affect entire nations like Oberyn, Varys, Middlefinger, Euron, and Cersei. Yes, I know that Cersei is prophesied to die by the valonqar, but that doesn't mean Arya won't come for her... she's on the list.... but the valonqar will beat Arya to it or Arya will be diverted to someone else.

Robb.... yes, I know Robb is dead. Robb's memory will live in the memory of the North for a long time. Robb and Jon idolized Daeron I, the Young Dragon, and Robb's story mirrored Daeron's. Robb was the first Stark in three hundred years to style himself a King. His memory will be an inspiration for family, glory, and love to those looking for those things.... and he'll be remembered as a fool, a cautionary tale to the patient, the planners, and the elderly.

Jon.... I've gone back and forth over the years regarding Jon's father. Eddard, Rhaegar, or Aerys II seem the three possible candidates to me. Even if Eddard is his father, he is still a Snow... unless Robb legitimized him AND somehow this treasonous act by a traitor is recognized by the Iron Throne OR if the North is permanently partitioned from the rule in KL. Anyway, Jon is in a bad position at the end of ADWD. He'll be alive somehow further in the story... but I see his story as being the story of the Wall and it's connection to The Other. Jon will not go to KL.

This brings me to.... Sansa. Middlefinger is a treacherous schemer, but he'll be brought down. I don't know how much influence, if any, that Sansa will have in his demise. Sansa will use her birth, Baelish's help, and her growing skills to be unavoidable in the settlement of peace upon Westeros. Bran and Rickon are presumed dead. Bran is not coming back... and Rickon will die. This means Sansa is the true heir to Winterfell (after Ramsay and Jeyne are exposed or killed). After the deaths of Robert Arryn and Harry Hardyng, Sansa will be the heir to the Eyrie. After the deaths of Edmure, Roslin, their potential offspring, and the Blackfish.... Sansa is the next in line to Riverrun. Remember that against Tywin's wishes but according to the law, Sansa is the Lady of Casterly Rock. At age fifteen or so, she is already (or close to being) the legitimate (no matter who rules in KL) ruler of the North, the Vale, the Riverlands, and the Westerlands. Only the Iron Islands, the Stormlands, the Reach, and Dorne, and the Crownlands would be out of her control. Think back to when she was engaged to Joffrey and almost engaged to Willas.... you could throw the Crownlands and the Reach within her reach as well. She is in position to be a (if not THE) major player in the ultimate resolution of the series. I am convinced that the Starks will continue through the female line in Sansa.

The direwolf pups quickly psychically (spelling?) bonded with the Stark kids. I think Lady did most quickly... becoming un-wolflike... domesticated. Bran is obvisously the most powerful of the Stark children and even though Sansa has not practiced at all, she carries the genes. If Preston Jacobs' Mendelian Inheritance concepts are valid, then Sansa may carry more genetic possibilites than Dany. Remember that Catelyn's mother was a Whent and descended from the Lothstons (the last two ruling houses in Harrenhal) and carries their genetic markers (the ability to warg bats). Also, with or without marrying Baelish Sansa could make a claim on Harrenhal as well.

In short, I think the story of the Wall is Jon's, the story of the Iron Throne is Sansa's, the story of passion is Robb's, the story of sorrow is Rickon's, the story of hate is Arya's, and the mysteries of the World are Bran's. Fire and Ice? Not sure if it means anything specifically anymore. Not sure if if there really is any super in supernatural in GRRM's world. There are unexplained things, but there are many natural explanations for the supernatural. And I'm convinced anything supernatural will be only low level magic and definitely not anything to do with a capital g God. I now lean to Fire and Ice just being a catch phrase to mean conflict. Hot and cold. Passion and indifference. Even love and hate. All of the Stark kids have these in their stories.