A question or two

grip junky

grip junky

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Why did Benjen Stark take the black?

I am curious everyones imagination is different, but if Arya looks like Lyanna why do posters here think she is anything other than a tom-boy that is going to be a beautiful woman? I can see why her SISTER thinks she is a horse face. I have saw it on a few threads here Sansa being the beauty and her not so much.
 
I believe Benjen took the black because 1) he was a younger son with no land or titles to inherit and 2) it is still considered an honourable thing to do in the North. He didn't take it because he was in disgrace in any way.

I'm not so sure if anyone thinks Arya is hideous. She's just a young child who likes getting dirty more than she likes sewing. And I agree with her there! :)
 
With Arya being her favorite, I can not wait to read what she thinks.
 
Mesanna said:
I believe Benjen took the black because 1) he was a younger son with no land or titles to inherit and 2) it is still considered an honourable thing to do in the North. He didn't take it because he was in disgrace in any way.
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I could see it being that, but he would have been one of his brothers banner men with a hold of his own. I think their is more to it.
 
A hold of his own... but it was not going to be on par with White Harbor, the Dreadfort, nor even Deepwood Motte. Benjen would have gotten something slightly better than Craster's Keep. And still he would have been beholden to Eddard.

He would not have commanded many men at all and yet he'd most likely have been Eddard's top captain... and we saw from Robb's calling of the banners that the Northmen were prickly about pecking order based upon strength. How could Ben's two dozen men placed him in authority over the Greatjon, Roose Bolton, or Rickard Karstark? Ben would have been envied and mocked.

I think Ben took the black to be his own man... to be free of Eddard's authority. It seems to me that Ben was on the way to becoming Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. That would have made him feel like an equal with Eddard and not a little brother anymore.

If Benjen had not been missing when it was time to choose a new commander, then he'd have been the leading candidate. Remember the other leading candidates? Cotter Pyke, Ser Denys Mallister, (et tu) Bowen Marsh, Othell Yarwyk, and Janos Slynt... I think a respected First Ranger, a son of Winterfell, and a brother to the Warden of the North would have seemed much more preferrable than any of them... although in my personal opinion, I think Cotter Pyke would have been the best of the rest.
 
Excellent answer Boaz!

Perhaps also it's something simple, like his name had been suggested as a potential husband to some harridan, so he immediately legged it to The Wall!
 
I do think it was over something simple or tragic. Joining over a lack of status or to gain status does not seem very Stark like.
 
I think Ben took the black to be his own man... to be free of Eddard's authority. It seems to me that Ben was on the way to becoming Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. That would have made him feel like an equal with Eddard and not a little brother anymore.
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When did Benjen take the black? He is not the second son, he was the third son. He grew up behind Brandon (the heir of Winterfell), and Eddard (raised thinking he would be Brandon's chief captain).

I see the decision of Benjen joining the Night's Watch as similar to the historical practice of noble families in Europe sending one of their sons to serve in the church. It shows that they are doing their duty to support the church while also giving their son a career path where he can make his own name for himself.
 
Tywin said:
When did Benjen take the black? He is not the second son, he was the third son. He grew up behind Brandon (the heir of Winterfell), and Eddard (raised thinking he would be Brandon's chief captain).
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Benjen joined Night Watch just after the Roberts Rebellion. I think there is more to it. First of all the timing - shortly after war. At second Stark family was hurt badly by Mad Aegon and Ned needed brother to help him rule the North. And also we can't be sure there wasn't any misshonor on Benjen - as he took black it was forgiven and left behind, and no one had business to speak about it anymore.
If we would accept the point that he goes to wall because he's not heir to Winterfell - the same should happen to Eddard and Benjen both if Brandon wasn't dead.


Time period of rebellion has many misteries, some are uncovered, but possibly some other wait for their turn.
 
If we would accept the point that he goes to wall because he's not heir to Winterfell - the same should happen to Eddard and Benjen both if Brandon wasn't dead.
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The old saying goes that you need "An heir, and a spare", and then the third son would go to the church. I saw that the wiki said that he went to the wall after the rebellion, but I don't know if that's actually in the text or was a creation of the wiki writer. Anyone have the source?
 
Tywin, since I started reading ASOIAF boards in 2003, the timing of Ben's departure for the NW has always been just after Robert's Rebellion. I don't know know if this an assumption by readers, if it's in the text, or if GRRM mentioned this at some point. I'm sure either Werthead or Raven would know where to locate the truth.

Ben was probably about sixteen or seventeen when Eddard called the banners. I assume that Ben was "the Stark in Winterfell" during the rebellion.

So why did he not stay? Did he commit some crime or some unforgivable social faux pas?

The easy answer is that GRRM did not have a reason other than as a plot device to prepare the way to introduce Jon to the NW.
 
Tywin said:
That's a dangerous post. Better be prepared for when Needle reads this :)
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Jeez Tywin I thought you loved me!:(

grip junky said:
Why did Benjen Stark take the black?
.
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I will say of the Benjen question, I agree with Boaz (didn't include post to save space) Benjen was the third son, a Stark son, taking the black was an honorable thing to do (more on that word honor in a sec) he most likely would not want to be dependent on his name alone or his brother for his position in life.

grip junky said:
I do think it was over something simple or tragic. Joining over a lack of status or to gain status does not seem very Stark like.
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Most everyone seems to equate honor with Stark. I am not saying the Starks were not honorable but you say Stark the first thought is Eddard. Yet the Stark name is very old and many of it's Lords were not Eddard. Brandon was said to be the wild one, to swing a sword first and question later! As i have said before, when the Starks really were Kings, The Kings of Winter, they were not nice guys, they were respected yes, even honorable yes, but they were feared as well.
Mesanna said:
I'm not so sure if anyone thinks Arya is hideous. She's just a young child who likes getting dirty more than she likes sewing. And I agree with her there! :)
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Totally with you on this one Mesanna! My grandmother who loved to sew was sadly disappointed with her lace hating, refuses to sew, dirty, scab kneed granddaughter! (Side note) Keep meaning to ask you- Did you take your name from WoT?

grip junky said:
I am curious everyones imagination is different, but if Arya looks like Lyanna why do posters here think she is anything other than a tom-boy that is going to be a beautiful woman? I can see why her SISTER thinks she is a horse face. I have saw it on a few threads here Sansa being the beauty and her not so much.
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Okay grip junky your turn!:eek:

Seriously though you phrased this in the form of a question, not that you were saying it, right?!;) No I didn't think you were!

As for Sansa, sisters are the best in the world at hurting each other, it seems to be their job!

Lyanna was indeed considered beautiful (although another example of a not so perfect Stark) Arya looks like her but she could not care less how she looks and she is very much the tom-boy. When I see Arya in the future I think of yearbook pictures! That girl everyone called ugly, you know the one, big nose, more braces than teeth, skinny, all knees, no breasts, dressed funny! 10 years later she is on the cover of Vogue! The boys are kicking themselves now! And her sister? Claims to have always known she was beautiful!
 
Benjen taking black can be only speculation, since there is nothing in the book about his reasons. Most correct one may be, as Boaz put it, to prepare ground for Jon to join NW.

Beauty is in the eyes of the watcher, and true value of the book is that it allows readers imagination to flourish. So if most of the readers think Arya will grow up to be beautiful, it is because GRRM's hints and wishful thinking (ugly duckling to beautiful swan theory). As everyone likes to imagine their favored characters more beautiful than they are.
 
For what it's worth I think the young actress they had play Arya in the series was prettier than the girl playing Sansa. Massie Williams is the actress and she looks a lot like I imagine Mila Kunis looked as a kid.
 
Needle said:
I will say of the Benjen question, I agree with Boaz (didn't include post to save space) Benjen was the third son, a Stark son, taking the black was an honorable thing to do (more on that word honor in a sec) he most likely would not want to be dependent on his name alone or his brother for his position in life.
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If Benjen indeed take the black after the war, there were only two Starks in main line - he wasn't third son no more. Of course there might be no direct reason for him to join NW, but basically if everything was ok with his past, in reality he shouldn't take black.
 
Wrong. Night Watch is honorable occupation no matter who is the man that takes it. His reasons aside, never forget who is in the watch at that point ( Measter Aemon Targaryen, Lord Commander Jeor Mormont...). So taking the black for many (especially men from the north) may still be a thing of honor. And there is nothing in the books that shows Benjen Stark is not the man of honor. Maybe it was his way of making Eddard and his children undisputed heirs to Winterfell.
 
NenadBulaja said:
Wrong. Night Watch is honorable occupation no matter who is the man that takes it. His reasons aside, never forget who is in the watch at that point ( Measter Aemon Targaryen, Lord Commander Jeor Mormont...). So taking the black for many (especially men from the north) may still be a thing of honor.
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I do not think so. He knew about the wall, what the NW was, who and what the men, were like before he got there. From what I can tell it had been a long time since it was what you are talking about.

I had thought he joined over lost love? Something that was said in the first book, I am not sure by who. That Jon would be like the son he had wanted. Or, I do think he was honorable, like his brother could have been to honorable. He could have done something to most was nothing, but to him he lost face.

One thing I do know is I would love to read more about him, pre NW.
 
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