The Armageddon Rag

Coragem

Coragem

Believer in flawed heroes
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I started writing a door stopping wedge of a sci-f
Hi Guys:

I guess some of you are in the same position as me. Perhaps you've finished ADWD and now you're suffering withdrawal, wishing The Winds of Winter was going to be with us sometime soon.

Well, to help me get through this I've been looking into some of George's older works.

I actually read Fevre Dream before I discovered ASOIAF, and absolutely loved it. For those who haven't read it, you should!

The Armageddon Rag was published a year after Fevre Dream, and I've just ordered it. I was wondering, have other people read it, and if so how does it compare?

Coragem.
 
Coragem said:
Hi Guys:

I guess some of you are in the same position as me. Perhaps you've finished ADWD and now you're suffering withdrawal, wishing The Winds of Winter was going to be with us sometime soon.

Well, to help me get through this I've been looking into some of George's older works.

I actually read Fevre Dream before I discovered ASOIAF, and absolutely loved it. For those who haven't read it, you should!

The Armageddon Rag was published a year after Fevre Dream, and I've just ordered it. I was wondering, have other people read it, and if so how does it compare?

Coragem.
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I haven't read either, but I did read the anthology which contains the first Dunk and Egg story (the Hedge Knight). I strongly recommend reading the 3 Hedge knight novellas if you haven't
 
The first anthology is also interesting because it shows that GRRM's awful work habits are far from a new thing that started with ASOIAF. If you read the intros before each story you find a recurring theme of him missing deadlines throughout the years. He's even delayed other anthologies from being published on time when he was the only author that didn't submit his work in time.

I know this sounds like criticism but it's really not. It's just the way he is. What can you do? You certainly can't argue with the results. Basically, no one who reads ASOIAF should be surprised by the delays if they've read Dreamsongs as well.

That said, The Hedge Knight is excellent. I haven't read the other two Dunk and Egg stories yet. I've also read In The House of the Worm and Dying of the Light. The former is a bit weird and the latter is kinda boring. Still though, they are well written.
 
viZion said:
The first anthology is also interesting because it shows that GRRM's awful work habits are far from a new thing ...
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I would like to stress, as a writer myself, that I think referring to "awful work habits" is completely inappropriate.

Almost none of the most brilliant authors of our time would be able to produce anything close to ASOIAF over a lifetime. I promise you, to take on world building as GRRM has, and to write in a way that is so detailed yet so expansive, he must be incredibly determined, and he must work very, very, very hard!!!!

Some authors write faster, true, and maybe a tiny minority can write fast and still write very well -- i.e., once in a generation geniuses. Yet when I think of the authors I really, seriously rate (e.g., Guy Gavriel Kay and Celia Friedman) they have years between publications, and unlike GRRM they're not writing tomes that are three times the size of a "normal" novel (400,000 words+).

Coragem.
 
Coragem said:
I would like to stress, as a writer myself, that I think referring to "awful work habits" is completely inappropriate.

Almost none of the most brilliant authors of our time would be able to produce anything close to ASOIAF over a lifetime. I promise you, to take on world building as GRRM has, and to write in a way that is so detailed yet so expansive, he must be incredibly determined, and he must work very, very, very hard!!!!

Some authors write faster, true, and maybe a tiny minority can write fast and still write very well -- i.e., once in a generation geniuses. Yet when I think of the authors I really, seriously rate (e.g., Guy Gavriel Kay and Celia Friedman) they have years between publications, and unlike GRRM they're not writing tomes that are three times the size of a "normal" novel (400,000 words+).

Coragem.
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Amen

The only living author that comes to mind that has consistently produced a large volume of basically good work has been Stephen King. I'll point out that he didn't publish his "masterpiece"- The Dark Tower series- overnight either. He just wrote lots of other things in the interim, and the entire series took him decades to finish. The late, great Isaac Asimov was prolific, but a good part of his writing was non-fiction.

I just wish that GRRM could write on the road, but that will never happen.
 
Coragem said:
I would like to stress, as a writer myself, that I think referring to "awful work habits" is completely inappropriate.

Almost none of the most brilliant authors of our time would be able to produce anything close to ASOIAF over a lifetime. I promise you, to take on world building as GRRM has, and to write in a way that is so detailed yet so expansive, he must be incredibly determined, and he must work very, very, very hard!!!!

Some authors write faster, true, and maybe a tiny minority can write fast and still write very well -- i.e., once in a generation geniuses. Yet when I think of the authors I really, seriously rate (e.g., Guy Gavriel Kay and Celia Friedman) they have years between publications, and unlike GRRM they're not writing tomes that are three times the size of a "normal" novel (400,000 words+).

Coragem.
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Meh. I can't agree. It's great that he has the stature these days to ignore deadlines with no consequences other than a few outraged fans. And, honestly, who cares about outraged fans? They'll still be reading when the work is released anyway. My point was that even before his great fame, he was missing deadlines and taking forever to finish projects. As I said, he's delayed the publication of at least one anthology when he was the *only* author unable to submit his work on time. His excuse was basically to tell the editor, "Well, that's just the way I work and you knew it going in". And it's true. The editor did know that going in and accepted it because the work was so good (I believe it was that werewolf story which is awesome).

Being a great artist does not hold you above criticism. And I can be a fan of his work and criticize what I see as his poor habits. I'm a fan, but not a fanboy who thinks GRRM cannot possibly do any wrong. And I too accept the fact that if I want to read more of his material then I'd better be prepared to wait for it. Still though, his work habits suck.
 
viZion, you and I are on the same page. Would that Martin produced as regularly as Erikson, or Janny Wurts, both of whom have written the same kind of large and detailed series over the same years (Erikson from about 2000 to 2011 (10 books, and a finished series, not including Esselmont's tomes)), and Wurts from 1991 to 2011 (9 books, w. 2 to go), and production was regular and even.

I am a fan too, but not a fanboy. His work habits, from any objective standard, are atrocious, but as a great artist, he is exempted from having to make apologies, because the writing is so good, we can't get mad enough to not buy his books. This being said, no one needs to make apologies for him, either, and there has been entirely too much of that going on. 7 years for the one book that everyone wanted. Hopefully, now that the Meereen knot has been severed (where is Alexander the Great when you need him), WoW will come a little faster. Surely GRRM is ready for some denouement in this tale, as AFFC and ADWD really set us up for the tipping point.
 
Clansman said:
viZion, you and I are on the same page. Would that Martin produced as regularly as Erikson, or Janny Wurts, both of whom have written the same kind of large and detailed series over the same years (Erikson from about 2000 to 2011 (10 books, and a finished series, not including Esselmont's tomes)), and Wurts from 1991 to 2011 (9 books, w. 2 to go), and production was regular and even.
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You're missing the point, but I understand as I think to appreciate GRRM you have to have been in the same position, as a person and a writer.

Some writers can write 1000 or 5000 words per day, or even more. Others, like myself, hit consistent quality, but we just cannot beat maybe 500 words per day, on average. I promise you, it's not for want of trying! And it's not a question of choosing to be slow, or choosing certain work patterns, anymore than we choose our eye colour or how tall we are.

I'm sure GRRM wishes he had Erikson's ability to write intelligent, long books comparatively quickly ... Although who sells more books, Erikson or Martin? I think we know.

Coragem.
 
I think it's symptomatic of the times we live in that people who have no idea what an author's work habits are blithely level criticism at them for their work habits. What exactly are these "atrocious work habits". What objective, or even subjective measure are you using to come to this conclusion?
 
For me, it's simple. He sets deadlines or his editors or publishers set deadlines and he fails to meet them on a consistent basis. Therefore, his work habits are not good. Most people (including, I imagine, lesser writers) would get fired for that but he can get away with it. That's fine, he's earned it with the consistent quality of his work. But that still doesn't change my opinion of his work habits. The man is not a God who can do no wrong. He has faults just like the rest of us and one of his major faults is an inability to get his work done in a timely manner.
 
viZion said:
For me, it's simple. He sets deadlines or his editors or publishers set deadlines and he fails to meet them on a consistent basis. Therefore, his work habits are not good. Most people (including, I imagine, lesser writers) would get fired for that but he can get away with it. That's fine, he's earned it with the consistent quality of his work. But that still doesn't change my opinion of his work habits. The man is not a God who can do no wrong. He has faults just like the rest of us and one of his major faults is an inability to get his work done in a timely manner.
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I think there's a difference between setting a deadline and being overly optimistic about when you might finish a project :)

Creativity doesn't know about deadlines.
 
No, GRRM, fails to meet deadlines and that is that. He will not change his work habits in his age (63 years old).

However, I frankly believe that it is not from the lack of effort, but from the touch of perfectionism. It takes great will to rewrite something many times, but it also takes willpower to stop, when your inner critic is still wishing for "better" work.

So only hope remains that GRRM will remain on the same level of writing, while in the same time he will (just for a little while) reduce his social activity to gain more time to write, and finish the series before we all get into his age :)
 
NenadBulaja said:
However, I frankly believe that it is not from the lack of effort, but from the touch of perfectionism.

he will (just for a little while) reduce his social activity to gain more time to write, and finish the series before we all get into his age :)
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I like these sentiments, but I don't think perfectionists take time off for social activity lightly. GRRM has always written well, but in terms of quality of writing I'd say ADWD is his best yet. He must be driven to the point of being obsessive to hit standards like that. Good god, the details, together with the expansiveness of ADWD! It's mind-boggling!

Writers do NEED time off. I've heard Brandon Sanderson say he works 12 or even 16 hour days, but most writers cannot choose to do that, just as they normally can't choose to be faster or slower writers.

To be specific, many writers will frankly find that their brains are truly fried after three or four hours' intense effort, under which circumstances it's just an utter waste of time to try to continue -- at best you finish up sabotaging your work.

Lately I completely a chapter, and it took so much out of me I had to to take a break. I was just a wasted wreck! And if I tried to write one single chapter anywhere near as good as one of GRRM's ... wow, I think I'd months to recover, lol!

Coragem.
 
No they don't. But fame came to GRRM late, and its my impression that he is enjoying it thoroughly. It is his personal matter how he decides to spend free time, but fact remains that he has lot of work ahead of him and less and less time to do it. So maybe some cons less and little more time in private with his faithful computer are in order.

On the side note, I also consider him top fantasy author at the moment, and are VERY impressed with the level of his writing.
 
NenadBulaja said:
No they don't.
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Yes, they do. At least, some writers need time off, and regular breaks, when the work is intense ... and some more than others.

This whole debate has involved a silly "black and white" mindset: GRRM submits work late, so he must have terrible work habits; some writers can do a book a year, so all ought to be able to do so; if some writers can do very long hours then all writers should be able to.

Life is not this simple. Shades of grey, nuance.

We're all different, we all work according to different rhythms. I KNOW I can't help but write slowly, I know I can't maintain a high standard if I work long hours, and I know I need to take breaks. So, why can't it be the same for GRRM? Why do we have to assume the worst of him, as if he were lazy or disorganised?

It's a good principle in life to think twice and twice again, and be very sure of the evidence, before judging people.

Coragem.
 
I am fortunate enough to be married to a woman who both teaches in the arts but also creates her own. because of her i've met painters, writers, photographers, sculptors, etc, and I've also been fortunate to meet many of her students (she teaches at a college for "intellectually gifted" young people.

All of them are different, and all of them work differently. What I think is that you measure a person's work habits by the results of their work, not by the deadlines they did or didn't meet.

I seriously dobut that GRRM's publishers have ever given him a dealine. He's set his own goals, and hasn't met them in many cases, but the end result of his work has been perhaps the best fantasy ever written. Even TALKING about work habits in the context of greatness seems trivial, atg least to me.
 
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