Good description of comma usage.

AnyaKimlin

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I'm looking for ideally a website as funds are low or a book that is particularly good with comma usage.

Over past two years my punctuation has improved. However my ability with commas stinks - I have two punctuation guides I have read repeatedly alongside one grammar book.

Oh UK specific would be useful.
 
You mean a website about comma usage, or one that just uses them well?

I've always found the articles on the Guardian's website well-punctuated.
 
Preferably one that explains why they are where they are.

That is what I get for writing a question about punctuation and grammar after a night without sleep. :)
 
Ahem. Well I have a problem with commas too, so I may not be the best person to answer. Still, here goes:

It's not UK specific and I'm not sure if it's any good (perhaps one of the punctuation gods will be over later to help) but I found this site helpful when I was trying to work out what the deal was with putting commas between adjectives (you only use them with coordinate adjectives, not non-coordinate ones...):

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/607/02/

I know this in theory: commas are, to a large extent, down to preference. They come and go in fashion as well. I had a professor a few years ago who was in his 60s and he used a commas every second word (I'm exaggerating, but not much).

My husband's PhD thesis was on commas (people fled him at parties) and the way you use them to disambiguate confusing sentences like this one:

'The horse raced past the barn fell.' (*)

It could be: 'The horse raced past, the barn fell.' [except it occurs to me that this is a comma splice and the punctuation should be something like: 'The horse raced past; the barn fell.' so I am not even coping with the example I chose. Alas!]

or

'The horse raced past the barn, fell.'

depending on where the comma goes. Cool, huh? So they're important to disambiguate if the sentence is otherwise confusing.

Also, if you pause somewhere when you're reading, you might consider putting a comma there.

Something I do all the time is put a comma between two sentences. I know I shouldn't, but I seem to be addicted. I believe that's the 'comma splice' that I must learn to dread and detest.

(*) he advises me that I chose a bad example, but it was the only one I could think of.
 
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So why are the two punctuation guides and the grammar book not working for you?

I don't know another one to recommend, but maybe you should start a thread with some examples (or use this thread) and a bunch of us can discuss them. That might help you more than reading another book?
 
I know they are mostly preference. However everytime I think i have the hang of it I put something up for review and apparently I have them in the wrong place. Thanks for your help.

I'm not sure why they are not working to be honest, because when I do the exercises in the book I get them right. No mistakes, however everytime I put something up for review it's said I have them in the wrong places.

Part of that is that Americans use more commas than we tend to in the UK, but it's not always down to that, and I'm not secure enough with my punctuation to know whether I am right or wrong.

OK let me edit a piece from my contemporary fantasy (my current work is detective fiction) and I'll put a paragraph up here.
 
Here is the first two paragraphs:

The penny drops into the slot, and the hurdy-gurdy music begins. Inside the glass case a head with chipped paint begins to creak round. It's eerie grin turning to face Little Johnny who buries his head in his Gran's side. Finally, the contraption stops whirling and spews a piece of paper out of its mouth. The strip flies out of the slot, and lands on Gran's stout, black boot. She pats Johnny's head and bends down to pick up the paper. He takes it off her and reads it out loud, 'Out of a long darkness the man will come tonight.'

Gran belts the machine casing with her long black umbrella. 'Loada bloody nonsense. What a waste of me quid.' His Gran never goes anywhere without her umbrella and a massive, red leather bag. She often says to Johnny, I'm no longer in the Caribbean you know. An' you never know when I may need to defend meself.
 
Others will probably disagree but I can't see anything wrong with the commas in that example. I wouldn't have used a comma after 'slot' the second time (and possibly not the first time either) but I don't think they're wrong.

Though there's a naughty apostrophe in the 'Its eerie grin...' and actually I don't think that's a sentence -- or, it doesn't work for me for some reason. I'd put a comma before 'its eerie grin', not a full stop because that bit's a continuation of the previous bit (ie: 'a head... begins to creak round, its eerie grin turning to face Little Johnny...').

For some reason, and I appreciate this is just me, I'd like to put a colon after 'reads it out loud' (I think. Or maybe I wouldn't. Can't decide).
 
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Anya, don't take what this as gospel, as I suspect my use of grammar is pretty old-fashioned.
The penny drops into the slot, and the hurdy-gurdy music begins
However, I was always taught that you should never put a comma before the word and, unless there was a significant pause intended. The reason for this, I was told, was that a comma had two main purposes: to denote a short pause and to join together two parts of a sentence together where, otherwise, the word and would be required. So, to put a comma before the word and would be, in effect, a double and, if that makes sense.

Finally, the contraption stops whirling and spews a piece of paper out of its mouth
This use seems fine to me, as the comma denotes a pause in the rhythm of the text.

My one big caveat in this is that my English teachers were, strangely, almost all on their way to retirement and quite set in their ways. So, what I was taught may now be out of fashion.
 
Anya, don't take what this as gospel, as I suspect my use of grammar is pretty old-fashioned. However, I was always taught that you should never put a comma before the word and, unless there was a significant pause intended.

I agree, Abernovo, but I think in this case the pause is (just about) significant enough. If I read it without a comma, the sentence runs together too much and loses its sense. But this is one of those cases where there's no definite correct use, and it's a matter of preference.

Anya, I think your general use of commas is fine, though there are a couple of other grammar issues. If no one else has, I'll go through them later when I have time.
 
HB, that is why I myself struggle, trying to work out what is right in which situation. Much of the time, preference is involved, just as you say. I suspect that, in fiction, some of the rules can be bent.

It's the which, where and when that is a big problem.
 
I just got hammered for my use of commas in a critique recently (not here) so this is very interesting, as I didn't think I was THAT bad at them. At least not in comparison to many, many other areas of my writing. So, to hear it's partly personal preference is a big relief to me.
 
Anya, don't take what this as gospel, as I suspect my use of grammar is pretty old-fashioned. However, I was always taught that you should never put a comma before the word and, unless there was a significant pause intended. The reason for this, I was told, was that a comma had two main purposes: to denote a short pause and to join together two parts of a sentence together where, otherwise, the word and would be required. So, to put a comma before the word and would be, in effect, a double and, if that makes sense.
Just as I was taught, also. We actually touched on this in The Toolbox

For help with the dreaded Oxford comma, it's explained well here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
 
The penny drops into the slot, [Personal preference, but I'd leave the comma in so upon first read you're not mistaken for saying "I dropped a penny into the slot AND the hurdy-gurdy too"] and the hurdy-gurdy music begins. Inside the glass case a head with ["covered in"? Or, "...a flaking, painted head creaks around to face Johnny..."?] chipped paint begins to creak round. Its eerie grin turns [not "turning"; you could only use "turning" if your sentence was, say, this: "Its eerie grin turning to face Johnny, the machine blah blah...", or else you've got a misplaced modifier] to face Little Johnny[comma] who buries his head in his Gran's side. Finally, the contraption stops whirling and spews a piece of paper from its mouth. The strip flies out of the slot [repetition from the last sentence; we know the paper's just flown out] and lands on Gran's stout black boot. She pats Johnny's head and bends down to pick up the paper. He takes it off her and reads it out loud, 'Out of a long darkness the man will come tonight.'

Gran belts the machine casing with her long black umbrella. 'Loada bloody nonsense. What a waste of me quid.' His Gran never goes anywhere without her umbrella and a massive, red leather bag. She often says to Johnny, I'm no longer in the Caribbean you know. An' you never know when I may need to defend meself.


Here's my version, cleaned-up, although I haven't spent long doing so:

The penny drops into the slot, and the hurdy-gurdy music begins. Inside the glass case a flaking, painted head creaks around to face Johnny, its grin eerie. The boy buries his face in his gran's side. The contraption stops whirling and spews a piece of paper from its mouth, which lands on Gran's boots. She pats Johnny's head and picks up the paper. He grabs it and reads aloud: 'Out of a long darkness the man will come tonight.'

Gran belts the machine with her umbrella. 'Loada bloody nonsense! What a waste of me quid.' His Gran never goes anywhere without her black umbrella and massive, red leather bag. She often says to Johnny, 'I'm no longer in the Caribbean, you know. An' you never know when I may need to defend meself.'

--------------------------------------

What may help you is to look up misplaced modifiers, dangling modifiers, modifying clauses, and parenthetical expressions. Google will be your friend. Hex's link is one I'd recommend, too - I've used it in the past.

Learn these rules and when to spot them, and your writing confidence should improve. :)

For example, you'll have to learn what a parenthetical expression is and when you've used one (though you don't need to learn the technical names!). Basically, it's a piece of info that you've added to your sentence that could be removed or moved without the sentence losing clarity. Always enclose them in commas:

I love that man, who wears the yellow trousers, and I think we'll get married.
I love that man, who wears yellow trousers, and I think we'll get married.
I love that man who's wearing the yellow trousers, and I think we'll get married.

My job, working on an oil rig, doesn't let me have much family time.

The horse wearing a black saddle is mine. [By the sounds of it there's loads of horses nearby, so the speaker is identifying theirs by its saddle colour.]
I look at the mare. The horse, wearing a black saddle, is mine. [Here, the black saddle info isn't really needed because there is only one horse--so the saddle colour is just extra info to build up a picture in the reader's mind.]

I love little Johhny, who just buried his face in Gran's side.


Also, watch for words that can be moved around in a sentence. They, too, need to be closed off in commas:

I'm fed up. This life, for example, bores me.
I'm fed up. This life bores me, for example.

Like mine, her kitten was playful, too.
Like mine, too, her kitten was playful.
Like mine, her kitten, too, was playful. [very clunky sentence, though!}

I think zombies make good lovers.
Zombies, I think, make good lovers.
Zombies make good lovers, I think.

However, I'm getting old.
I am, however, getting old.
I am getting old, however.

There's no rule that says you have to follow every rule, though. Even in my examples you'll see areas where I could have changed what I'd written:

I love that man who's wearing the yellow trousers and, I think, we'll get married.
I love that man who's wearing the yellow trousers, and, I think, we'll get married.
I love that man who's wearing the yellow trousers; I think we'll get married.
I love that man who's wearing the yellow trousers; we'll get married, I think.
I love that man who's wearing the yellow trousers - I think we'll get married.
I love that man who's wearing the yellow trousers - we'll get married, I think.

It's just personal preference some of the time - look at flow, style, meaning, etc, to make up your mind. :)

A final example:

I love that man, who wears yellow trousers, and, I think, we'll get married.
I love that man, who wears yellow trousers, and I think we'll get married.
I love that man, who wears yellow trousers, and we'll get married, I think.

The first example halts the flow too much but is technically acceptable because the "I think" is a parenthetical expression...

I prefer line 2.

Hope this helps. :)
 
Any help is welcome, because my grammar and punctuation is the weakest part of my writing. In common with many of my age group it wasn't really taught at school. Also I went nearly fifteen years between university and writing anything more than a letter. What I did know I'd forgotten.

I have been reading the books, but they tend to show the how or what and I work better with why. When I understand why something is the way it is -- it sinks in. I do understand the rearrangement of the sentence reads better.

My understanding had been a comma could come before an and if it was being used as a conjunction and the two parts of the sentence were significantly different for example if it deals with two different people. I'd placed the comma before the and, because someone (I suspect Johnny) placed the penny in the slot, but the machine was playing the music.
 
I don't know as much grammar as I really ought to, Anya, so you're certainly not alone.

There is another reason that I thought that comma didn't quite work. He places a penny in the slot and (direct consequence) music starts. It might be how I was reading it, but to me it suggested Action A immediately causing Action B, all instigated by Johnny.

I hasten to point out that this is entirely my own take on it and could very well be wrong.
 
Ugh at least I am not alone, as I am improving with my writing it is standing out more if that makes sense? Before I was just rubbish, now my storytelling ability is OK, I can do dialogue fairly well and characters seem to work well.
 
Like you, Anya, I didn't get taught much in the way of grammar and punctuation. In fact, the only thing I excelled at in English lessons was spelling. I learned everything from reading articles online, published fiction books, and Stunk and White's The Elements of Style.

Hello, by the way! I haven't met you yet, since I've been away for a while. I hope you like this place.
 
Good to meet you :) I've settled in well. It's been fun and I love the short challenges.

I currently have a Penguin Punctuation Guide, Don't Panic: A Guide to Punctuation for Adults and an Oxford Grammar book I got as part of a set years ago. I've read them, taken notes and somehow it's not sinking in. It has improved though.
 
Don't panic, like it tells you! ;) If you keep reading, learning, and trying, the rules will sink in eventually and you'll instantly be able to spot problems in your work. The more you write, the more you'll learn what makes a good sentence. Flow is very important. Commas, full stops, and semicolons halt the reader momentarily - so decide whether your line needs a fast-paced, minimal-punctuation style, or whether you're about to describe your landscape in loving slow detail (possibly even with adjectives and adverbs!)
 

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