Seemed/ looked like etc.

[Hex]

Another confused question from me.

I have had various critiques in which people point out that saying things like: 'the man was angry' or 'she was expecting someone taller' etc may read like a head hop because how could another character *know*.

I have also read things which say that using qualifications like 'it seemed like the man was angry' or 'she looked like she was expecting someone taller' weaken and distance the writing.

So... am I encountering an issue with critiques and with being a beginner writer (my readers don't trust me not to head hop?) or is this a more general tension?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think its a difficulty in writing from 1st person perspective, which you generally do. It does limit how close you can get to the other characters because you only have dialogue and their expressions etc to use. (and why I with my head hopping addiction could never even try it.)
If it were me, I'd go the dialogue route, but I like dialogue.

And no, I don't think it's a lack of faith in you, it's just indicative of how it is to do what you're trying to do and why, by and large, 1st person perspective novels are in the minority.

(I think it's easier in short stories, but sustaining it for a whole novel is difficult, not least in terms of maintaining pace and continuity.)

 

[Grimbear]

I would avoid 'seemed like' or 'looked like' and other similar phrases as much as possible. Say the guy was eg angry but explain why this is apparent by eg making a reference to his demeanor that makes it obvious why the observer knows he's eg angry:

He was bunching his fists in suppressed anger.

Her face was drawn with tiredness and grief.

His expression was that of one who'd just found a dead mouse in slice of steak pie; utterly disgusted.

Her whole body thrummed with righteous rage. Her eyes burned, unblinking....


RE: Expecting someone taller - well there's no way a 1st person POV character could know this unless the character told them. However, they could know from a person's expressions and body language that the person was for instance disappointed.

 

[HareBrain]

I think the two examples are very different. I'd be happy with "he was angry", because we assume the narrator could tell this from facial expression, etc -- it needs no explanation. "He was expecting someone taller" wouldn't be obvious at all, and if the narrator's perception isn't explained (even with one word, like "clearly" or "doubtless"), it seems like a cheat.

 

[Boneman]

It is easier from 1st person pov, because it's in keeping with the narrator's style, often. It's a thing I've had pointed out to me, and one of my last edits will be to search for the word 'was' and check I'm not veering into passive voice.

'There was a large cloud in the sky and it looked threatening.'

'A large cloud hung in the sky and it looked threatening.'

'The large cloud in the sky looked threatening'

'The large cloud threatened snow.'

I'm really not totally sure of the rights and wrongs of 'was' - sometimes I correct mine, and don't like the correction.

Here's one I'm leaving, and it's a double!: Firepits were already burning, but I was surprised to see strangers working the spit-roasts, rather than the outriders.

I know someone will tell me the strangers would be working the outriders, but actually it's not me speaking, it's my narrator...

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I just did the was search on my last edit, and I took out about half of them. The others stayed, either because I wanted the passive voice at that point, or the alternative set my teeth on edge. But I have a tendency, still, to write my drafts with a lot of passive voice so anything I can do to eradicate it is useful.

 

[Grimbear]

Yep - I tend to overuse passive voice too. I struggle against it, but it's like ingrained in the way I write so it's tough. I want my writing to have immediacy and emotional involvement - don't we all? - but sometimes I distance it all and don't even know I'm doing it.

 

[Hex]

"He was expecting someone taller" wouldn't be obvious at all, and if the narrator's perception isn't explained (even with one word, like "clearly" or "doubtless"), it seems like a cheat.

True. There'd have to be context. "Like everyone did, he was expecting someone taller."

It occurs to me that this isn't necessarily a problem with first person or with telling instead of showing (well, or rather sometimes it works to tell) because I think one of the things that set me off on this was I, Brian's thread on GRRM and headhopping.

Here: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/535137-grrm-pov-use.html


Yes. Passive voice too often here as well. I tried to get rid of it on my last edit, and the astonishingly convoluted sentences I sometimes used for apparently no good reason. I couldn't get rid of all of them.

I don't have a problem with your sentence about strangers working the outriders (*), Boneman

(*) I know it's not a very funny joke, and you made it already, but I'm trying...

 

[Dozmonic]

If you try and stick too rigidly to the rules of writing, everything will sound unnatural. If someone reading your work knows who you're talking about with each word, then it's generally written well enough. The rules are there to stop you writing something like:

I knew it was too late. I looked over at Bob, who was worried about his family and whatever fate would befall his favourite dog.
"Let's use the superwhopper device," said Charles, suddenly remembering the god given device that he had hidden upon his person. It was risky to use anything given by the Gods, but this mixture of British names filled me with confidence. It seemed we would have good luck.
I looked over at Sebastien who nodded his agreement, he wanted to get home and have some marmite on toast as soon as possible. As he thought about it, Sebastien decided he would have earl grey to drink instead of darjeeling...

Because the above is 1st person, showing absolute omniscience of all character's thoughts and sounds, basically, clumsy.

 

[The Judge]

I use "seemed" and "appeared" an awful lot. I blame the lawyer in me -- I can't use a definitive "was" if there's a slightest doubt that it isn't. Besides, no one's ever sure of anything in my books, not even me.

I also use "clearly" and "doubtless" when I want to show the inner thoughts of others based on what the character knows of them.

I know we're continually advised to show not tell, but taken to extremes we'd end up with continual lists of facial expressions. After all, when we are talking with someone we don't think "Oh, he's frowning, his brows low over his narrowed eyes" we think "He's angry" so I don't see why my characters can't do the same from time to time.

I think it's like everything -- if you write a good book no one will notice. Readers will only start picking on these stylistic tics if they aren't engrossed in the story (or if they're critiquing, of course!).

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I use appeared/seemed but I do try to find different ways to doing it:

Jack shook hands and said. 'Wow you're tall.'

 

[Boneman]

I think it's like everything -- if you write a good book no one will notice. Readers will only start picking on these stylistic tics if they aren't engrossed in the story (or if they're critiquing, of course!).

I think that sums it up perfectly. I've read books where I didn't even notice the passive voice as the story was so good, it dragged me along and I had no inclination to stop and analyse.

(On another off-thread note: The temperature here last night was about minus 10, apparently, there's still snow on the ground, and a ladybird just flew onto my hand - frightened the bejasus out of me, but, luckily, my terror-filled reaction just threw it back into the air, and it's now walking around my notepad... What do ladybirds eat?)

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Bugs mainly aphids (check your indoor plants see if any have greenfly - basils notorious for it) and they are really tough and can survive the cold pretty well.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Generally speaking, never use "seemed" except possibly as part of a first person narrative.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Generally speaking, never use "seemed" except possibly as part of a first person narrative.

Agree with this very much.

Also passive voice is not always bad. As others have said, if the story is good enough.

 

[Toby Frost]

"Seemed" can be used in a close 3rd person narrative, but only really works if it's setting up an expectation in a reader's mind that things might not be as they seem, where the viewpoint character cannot really tell.

Dave crept down the stairs. The hall seemed empty.

This shows that Dave's viewpoint is limited - he isn't sure that the hall is empty, but he thinks so - and raises the suspicion that the hall isn't empty. However, this is a special effect, and wherever possible I would try to edit "seemed" out.

 

[Ursa major]

I have had various critiques in which people point out that saying things like: 'the man was angry' or 'she was expecting someone taller' etc may read like a head hop because how could another character *know*.

I have also read things which say that using qualifications like 'it seemed like the man was angry'....

The trouble with inserting phrases liked 'looked like' and 'seemed like' is that they do two things, neither of which are necessarily helpful:

1. It places the narrator - the PoV character - between the reader and the narration; this is fine where we're looking at the PoV's motivation and thoughts, but otherwise unwelcome.
2. It changes the meaning. There is a huge difference between 'he was angry' and 'he seemed to be angry'; again, if the latter is what is meant, it's fine, but otherwise not, because it changes the description.

'she was expecting someone taller'

This is a more difficult example, because it does look either like head hopping or mind reading. I don't think your solution works, because it still does not explain how the narrator knows what another character was expecting.

"Like everyone did, he was expecting someone taller."

As a reader, I'd take two things from this:

1. that there appeared to be some head hopping, or mind reading, going on;
2. that the narrator had issues about their lack of height.

I don't think you want any of these impressions.



The thing is that in real life, we are all in the same boat as the narrator - lacking the ability to mind read -so we have to rely on our other senses. I would only know if someone was expecting me to be taller if there were some real clues for this; as in any case of others' expectations, I'd need to be told. In the case of obvious stuff - someone being angry - I'd think they were angry; I wouldn't think they seemed angry unless I really had to guess (because it wasn't obvious to me).

 

[Toby Frost]

I don't see any problem with this:

The general arrived that afternoon. Steve had been expecting someone taller.

All that says is literally that Steve had thought that the general would be taller than he actually was. I don't think the narrator comes into it at all.

"Like everyone did" complicates matters. First there is the question raised by "everyone". Does this mean the other characters or anyone, including the readers, with knowledge of the story? I think it's fairly clearly any of the other characters, although some may find it vague. Secondly, it detaches the viewpoint slightly from close 3rd person to a more general, bird's-eye-view of things. If everything we've seen up to this point is from X's point of view, it may seem strange to suddenly start talking about everyone, given that X won't know what their views are.

Although I should add that readers will forgive a lot if the story and writing are good.

 

[Ursa major]

That only works if:

• Steve is the narrator

or
​

• the narrator knows, because they've been told, that Steve had been expecting someone taller.

The point being that expectations are states of mind and therefore hard to determine by mere observation.

 

[Toby Frost]

I agree. Steve has to be the POV character for that to work, or else there is no POV character and the whole story is written in a very detached way, which I gather is seen as old-fashioned these days. Had the story been about the general, or a third-party onlooker, it would make no sense to suddenly learn what Steve is thinking.