Is this a good idea? n00b here...

[starwarskicksass1234]

Hi, I'm new here, and I'm not sure where to put this, but there's this idea that I've had in my head for a while...

What I need are characters and a good plot...

DISCLAIMER: No claims of plausibility intended!

What if Earth had two moons, each half the size of our real-life one?

History doesn't change much until 1945, in the advent of the Cold War and the Space Race etc. The Americans land on one of the moons, "Hansel", in 1965, and, in the words of the late Kennedy, planned to have had a man "on both Hansel and Gretel by the end of this decade!"

Meanwhile, in the USSR, another space program is underway. In the late 1960's, when Leonid Brezhnev announces his government had been planning for a colonization mission of Gretel for years, the United States threatens military action and launches brand new "space bombers" into orbit around Earth, based at the under-construction Franklin D. Roosevelt Memorial Lunar Base.

In 1970, the space shuttle Lenin is launched, along with a fleet of the USSR's version of space bombers. The American fleet is placed on high alert, and eventually takes off and is ordered to fire at will. The Battle of Gretel begins.

The entire regular militaries of both nations are on defensive alert, but no-one launches a major attack on the other, apart from the Battle of Gretel, which is eventually won by the Soviets.

The UK, China and the UN threaten economic sanctions on both nations, forcing a ceasefire between the superpowers. The Americans retreat to FDR, and the Soviet colony's population reaches 2,500 by 1975. Occasional skirmishes still occur in the space between Hansel and Gretel, no full-blown war as of yet. Unless...

Unless I go through with one of my half-formed story ideas.

One day, there occurs a small dogfight between one (for example) East German pilot and one (eg Canadian pilot. Now, The aforementioned space shuttle "Lenin", which is carrying plenty of civilian colonists, is accidentally hit by the Canadian. I will work out the details for this event later. The Soviet Union is enraged, and declares war on Canada and the US. World War III ensues...

The twist? The Canadian pilot is the son of the Prime Minister. I'm thinking of making him a bit of a cocky but talented pilot who is respected and favoured by his superiors (mostly due to family connections) and respected by some of his peers, but disliked (no major extreme hate) by others.

I'm mixing genres of science fiction, alternate history, Aristotelian tragedy, fantasy (may incorporate some mythological elements from Slavic or other cultures), political fiction, military fiction, bildungsroman, and, of course, action.

So, what do you guys think? Is this a good idea, is it stupid? Is this even in the right section? lol. Is the Cold War too outdated to write a good story surrounding fictional events? Any feedback whatsoever?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Jammill Khursheed]

I would welcome you to the forums, but I've only been here since this morning so i'm just opening the door, it ain't my house yet.

As far as ideas go though it ain't a bad one, and that actually is a plot, so you're already half way to what you needed.

The only thing i can think of to gripe about is the names of the moons, Hansel and Gretel was, i think, a brothers Grimm story, and they were only around like two/three hundred years ago max (I've never actively researched fairytale writers, so I can't give you an exact date.) The world would have noticed two moons long before that, and I doubt they would re-name them after the story when they would have already had names.

Apart from that good luck with it. What were the chances of two people writing alternate-timeline world-war III stories joining the same forum on the same day???

Jammill

 

[Interference]

It sounds like a pretty neat plot to me.

Tidal effects are the first thing you probably already thought of to look into. Also, do they spin or are they both facing us, like the one we already have? This might go to the origins of each moon being different, and the selection process in deciding which to colonise first. Distances from us will play a part in that as well.

At what distance would a smaller moon's orbit remain fairly stable?

Sorry, I don't have answers for any of these, hopefully someone will come along with the maths later

As I say, I really like the idea.



Welcome, btw, and thank you for bringing your ideas here so we can steal ---


SORRY!!!!


.... see them

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I
Apart from that good luck with it. What were the chances of two people writing alternate-timeline world-war III stories joining the same forum on the same day???

Jammill

On this forum? Better odds than you'd expect.

You're both really welcome, you'll find it's very friendly,for all comers.

(I did get lost a bit in the plot, but it's late, and I'll check it tomorrow properly.)

Enjoy the Chrons.

@Inter; you can tell which Irish person stays up latest! and it's not the one with the school run in the morning....

 

[starwarskicksass1234]

Thanks guys

And yeah, Interference, I wasn't sure how that would affect anything, as I'm not exactly a science major Read my disclaimer again lol.

And , Jammill, the names are only tentative.

 

[Scott R. Forshaw]

I quite like the idea, but as stated in an earlier post, tidal effect would have to be taken into consideration. From a scientific point of view, you'd have to determine whether such things were/are possible in order to make the story believable. There are a lot of sci-fi fans out there who would pick holes in your plot if there are any discrepancies - even miniscule ones.

As I haven't the slightest idea about such things, I'm not one of those people, but I'm sure someone around here will be able to point you in the right direction.

As far as the story is concerned, I like it, and would enjoy reading something like this.

Once you've gained enough posts, why not put an excerpt up for critique and see what feedback you get?

 

[David Evil Overlord]

For stabilty, you might want to Google "Lagrange points". There are, IIRC, five of these in the Earth-Moon system, and anything in them is in the orbital position that gives the greatest stability.

That works for our Earth-Moon system. Not sure how it would go for an Earth-Two-Moon system.

P.S. My admittedly-limited understanding of astro-geology (if that's even what it's called!) leads me to believe that two half-moons would each have half our lunar gravity...unless you decided to make them out of denser elements (eg perhaps huge deposits of metal will help justify all this fighting over the moons). But stronger gravity moons will also mess with your tides on Earth...

P.P.S. The names. Perhaps Diana and Artemis (Greek and Roman goddessess) ?

 

[starwarskicksass1234]

For stabilty, you might want to Google "Lagrange points". There are, IIRC, five of these in the Earth-Moon system, and anything in them is in the orbital position that gives the greatest stability.

That works for our Earth-Moon system. Not sure how it would go for an Earth-Two-Moon system.

P.S. My admittedly-limited understanding of astro-geology (if that's even what it's called!) leads me to believe that two half-moons would each have half our lunar gravity...unless you decided to make them out of denser elements (eg perhaps huge deposits of metal will help justify all this fighting over the moons). But stronger gravity moons will also mess with your tides on Earth...

P.P.S. The names. Perhaps Diana and Artemis (Greek and Roman goddessess) ?

Hmm... I'll look into that... And yeah, I might add some natural resources, though the Space Race itself may be enough.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Actually, yes, I think the biggest issue with having two moons would be the jet streams, the tides, and the weather.


Not to mention with two moons, even if they are just half the size of our real moon, they wouldn't be very close to each other in orbit, and as a result I would probably expect more potential eclipses than usual. And then there WOULD be the risk of a collision of the two moons, possibly. (Still perhaps astronomically low, but it would be there nonetheless.)


Since each one would only be about half the size of our normal moon, I wouldn't consider any more or less space debris hitting the planet's surface being an issue.

 

[Abernovo]

I'm going to assume that the two moons are in different orbits (simply because that is the norm in the Solar System). I imagine the tidal forces would be quite chaotic by our standards, with influence from two directions, plus the sun.

They would (again, guessing here) make for smaller tidal variances in the sea generally, which could work together or against each other at different periods of the orbits, creating violent tidal races and currents. When in certain alignments, I would think that the effects could be potentially devastating when you consider the norm that the people of this alternative Earth would probably experience. Combine these alignments with a violent storm and the storm surge could be doozy (technical term).

There would also be tidal effects on the two moons. However, the tidal effects would probably be better in the background. They could add colour, such as storms, but might slow the story down if concentrated on. One thing that should be taken into account would be the lower gravity on each of these moons. How would you handle fitness and losing bone density? Regular rotation of personnel? If so, then what would happen in the event of a Cuban Missile Crisis-style blockade of one of the moons?

 

[Interference]

I had a quick mull about this in between reading comments and came to the conclusion that the moons would need to be either in different orbits or in exact synchronisation with each other, and, as we know, "exact", over billions or even mere millions of years, is nothing to depend on.

So, my head had already decided, before my brain did, that they'd be in different orbits and one would be larger than the other. The nearer of the two (Gretel) would be the U.S. propaganda-goal, with the lower gravity providing its own set of problems for scientists, while the further, larger and gravitationally stronger(?), would be the U.S.S.R. strategic-goal.

Or would the sizes be the other way around, given that the equation for an orbit probably has lots of squiggles that mean something sensible about mass and gravity.

Yeah, I've had this discussion before regarding the relative pulls of the Sun and Moon and how the tides are affected when these two bodies align with us, so the question is this:Are the tidal effects of both moons intended (in a dramatic sense) to equal that of one? If so, then the alignment of two Moons and a Sun would be the same (roughly) while mini-alignments of any pair would be slighter but more frequent.

Now let's tackle questions of lycanthropy and other lunar-cycle effects. How long is a month, for example, as the word derives directly from the Moon. And while we're on the subject, just how mythical are Hansel and Gretel, anyway? Won't the Moons have been part of our every-day lives long before The Parallel Grimm Bros? Our Moon had many names (too lazy to research) including Diana and (I think) Aphrodite, but I suspect twin moons might be named after twin gods of Rome and/or Greece (?).

I wasn't serious (much) about lycanthropy, except to the extent that it introduces the topic of lunar cycles, of which we would now have two with events in between marking particular phases of each moon and their relative effects in isolation and unison. Is there, for example, definite evidence that people under a solo Moon are more inclined to lunacy than if there were no moon at all? Do statistics reveal any true correlation between acts of violence or even mere craziness and our Moon's progress? And, of course, be creative about calling such people "lunatics". There may be different names, like Greteltics and Hanseltics (stop it, I know it's not good ), for different levels of lunacy, and don't even get me started on the other obvious monthly cycle that everyone, by now, is already thinking about.

But, wouldn't that be a curse? - for all concerned!

I still think it's a good (and very possibly better than just "good") idea and well worth pursuing.

 

[Jammill Khursheed]

RE - Eclipses

As I understand it, a total eclipse only happens because of the relative ratios of the sun and he moon (i forget the exact comparison, but the sun is X times larger than the moon, but also, luckily, almost exactly X times as far away, so they fit together perfectly during an eclipse.)

If each moon was only half the size, there wouldn't be a total eclipse, just like a chunk of the sun missing in the middle but the rest of it still visible around the mini-moon, I think anyways. Is that right?

RE - Tides

If the moons were in diametrically opposite orbits, would they pull the tides in different ways at the same time, or would they just cancel each other out?

I realise they aren't really answers, just two more questions, butt dag-nam-it I wanna see this worked out now.


Jammill

 

[Bowler1]

You're ideas are fine - you'll see questions and ideas on here that make two moons and the old cold war seem very tame indeed. Welcome.

 

[starwarskicksass1234]

Thanks everyone. And for the tide problem, here's an idea...

The moons are reasonably close to each other, and there is a new radioactive element, dubbed "stalinium", (Yeah the Soviets are a bit ahead of the game in this story) concentrated at each moon's poles, which also happens to work as a strong magnet. The north poles are facing each other, causing both gravity and magnetism to counteract each other. The moons are co-orbiting. It takes a full month for them to orbit each other, a full month for them to orbit the Earth, and milliseconds shorter than a month to tilt on each other's axes. NASA estimates that the moons will collide in 3000 years.

 

[Glitch]

Collision of the two moons isn't a given.

Epimetheus and Janus are co-orbital around Saturn. The distance between the two moon's orbits are less than the diameter of either moon. The inner moon travellers faster and will catch up with the outer moon, so you would expect them to collide. however, when the inner moon catches up the gravity exerted by both moons causes them to switch orbits. You could call it a game of tag.

This is explained in more detail on wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(moon)#Orbital_relationship_between_Epimetheus_and_Janus

Your idea is interesting, I look forwarding to eventually reading an excerpt in the critiques sub-forum.

A few points that spring to mind...

Two moons would probably have effects on our different religions and cultures quite early on.

Tides, you might get away with this one. Do most people realise the tide is affected by the moon?

Technology. Colonisation of the moon in the '70s seems a giant leap forward in technology. You are writing science fiction, so you can take such leaps. I would read up on the early missions to see what sort of problems were involved in even getting launched into space. If you address these issues the technology can be more believable.

The moons. If you're not wanting to change history too much you could try hiding the second moon. If they are roughly the same size and colour people might not realise they are not the same moon, at least until more advanced technology is available ?

 

[Gumboot]

Is there, for example, definite evidence that people under a solo Moon are more inclined to lunacy than if there were no moon at all? Do statistics reveal any true correlation between acts of violence or even mere craziness and our Moon's progress?

The moon's gravitational affect on humans is essentially negligable, and has no bearing on human behaviour. A mosquito, sitting on your arm, exerts a greater gravitational effect on your body than the moon does.

There are really only three ways in which the moon has any influence on earth:

1. Tides
Because ocean water is unbounded, and consists of an extremely thin layer over the earth, the moon's weak gravitational pull has a minor influence, leading to the tides.

2. Light
The lunar cycle results in varying levels of light in the night sky from a lot (full moon) to very little (new moon). This effects the behaviour of both plants and animals.

3. Micro-quakes
The moon's tidal force changes the height of the water column over a given part of the earth's sub-ocean surface. This in turn increases the weight of the water column and thus the amount of gravitational pressure exerted on the ocean floor. This results in increases in micro-earthquakes which are tiny (~M1) earthquakes at or near the surface.

 

[JunkMonkey]

Thanks everyone. And for the tide problem, here's an idea...

The moons are reasonably close to each other, and there is a new radioactive element, dubbed "stalinium", (Yeah the Soviets are a bit ahead of the game in this story) concentrated at each moon's poles, which also happens to work as a strong magnet. The north poles are facing each other, causing both gravity and magnetism to counteract each other. The moons are co-orbiting. It takes a full month for them to orbit each other, a full month for them to orbit the Earth, and milliseconds shorter than a month to tilt on each other's axes. NASA estimates that the moons will collide in 3000 years.

I'm no physicist or astronomer just an average SF reader but my 'Wait a minute!' button just got pushed.

I don't think the current moon has much of a magnetic field - possibly due to it now being cooled to the point where any iron at its core is no longer spinning (as the Earth's is) and acting as a dynamo. Two smaller moons formed at the same time as Luna would presumably have cooled even faster and have lost even more of any residual magnetism locked in the rock.

 

[starwarskicksass1234]

P.P.S. The names. Perhaps Diana and Artemis (Greek and Roman goddessess) ?

I was thinking Apollo and Diana, considering they were fraternal twins. I like the "twin" naming theme. Thanks for the idea.

 

[starwarskicksass1234]

I'm no physicist or astronomer just an average SF reader but my 'Wait a minute!' button just got pushed.

I don't think the current moon has much of a magnetic field - possibly due to it now being cooled to the point where any iron at its core is no longer spinning (as the Earth's is) and acting as a dynamo. Two smaller moons formed at the same time as Luna would presumably have cooled even faster and have lost even more of any residual magnetism locked in the rock.

Hmm... another thing to look into... I can already tell that you guys are awesome around here!