GRRM ruined a song of ice and fire by killing too many good characters

[The Procrastinator]

Your opinion is seconded, HB. GRRM is trying to have his cake and eat it too. Time will tell if he can pull it off. The wagon is still rolling but a couple of wheels are wobbling.

 

[Moonbat]

SPOILERS BELOW!!!

I found this an interesting thread. Not least because I feel the same as some of the others on here (and no, not those others!!)

I read GoT and loved it, Ned's death shocked me, as did Bran's fall. I thought, 'Wow!, this guy is writing something really different'. I liked that the main characters didn't have everything go their way. So I got book 2, read it, enjoyed it, then got book 3 (both books in one) and started reading it. But when Jon and Cat died I was suddenly very bored. I had discovered GRRM's style, which was, at that point, lets have our heros look like they are about to succeed and then kill them. Jon's death bothered me more because Arya was about to get to her Mum and then everyone died. It sort of began to get boring, so I stopped reading. Anyway a few months later I went back to book 3 and finished it, but then decided not to get AFFC and stopped there.
But last weekend I got the TV series and loved it, and now I'm thinking I might read on just to see what happens. I wouldn't say GRRM ruined the series, but I think by the third book the shock of a writer killing off his heroes, and making sure things don't work out for them had worn off. If anything I want to see them survive and prosper, but in his interview he said the end of the last book will be one big graveyard with a cold wind blowing across it, so now I expect he'll just kill everyone.

The change in characters, from evil to good (Tywin and Jaime) has been very interesting, and I'm yet to read Arya go the other way, but I expect (from hints above) that she might. It is refreshing to read something so un-hollywood, where the heroes don't win everything, and it means that we, as readers, can't read any situation and think 'oh, he'll be fine, he's a good guy.' which is good, but I got bored in the middle of book three, and only the TV series has re-ignited my interest.

 

[Ursa major]

SPOILERS BELOW!!!

But when Jon and Cat died I was suddenly very bored. I had discovered GRRM's style, which was, at that point, lets have our heros look like they are about to succeed and then kill them. Jon's death bothered me more because Arya was about to get to her Mum and then everyone died. It sort of began to get boring, so I stopped reading.

I think you mean Robb, rather than Jon.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Jon dies?

...


....

 

[Moonbat]

see, I was that bored I forgot which brother was which.
But yes, I meant Robb, not Jon. Jon isn't dead...yet?

 

[Ursa major]

Not to give too much away, but everyone is dead by the end of A Feast for Crows. Luckily an equally devious and savage group of aliens arrive at the start of A Dance with Dragons, so the carnage can continue.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

I sort of agree with some of the comments. I've read only the first of the books, Song, and decided I didn't want to go any further because it was so damned grim. I mean I can sort of accept that Ned had to die, but the endless, lets face it rape of children, was too damned gross for me. And the characters, the best of them had feet of clay, and as for the worst, - aaghh! What would really have helped for me at least, was some humour, something to lighten the relentless nastyness.

But then I watched series one last week and I have to say they've fixed a few of the problems. The children being wedded off for a start are older, (even the ones they claim are younger), and they've edited out some of the nastier bits. You don't see Ned's head fly, its left to your imgination. Neither do you see the sickening thump as a ten year old boy hits the ground. That helps. I do wish they'd cut down on the gratuitous sex a bit. Maybe its supposed to be salacious, but quite frankly it's just starting to irk me. Every five minute's there's another naked woman on her hands and knees. Too blasted much!

However, between the edits, the phenomenal world Martin created, and the surprising depth of acting that they found, especially among the child actors, the first season was truly awesome. But I still await season two with some trepidation.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Mesanna]

Not to give too much away, but everyone is dead by the end of A Feast for Crows. Luckily an equally devious and savage group of aliens arrive at the start of A Dance with Dragons, so the carnage can continue.

Well thanks for giving away the end, you inconsiderate sod!

 

[Keebs411]

What would really have helped for me at least, was some humour, something to lighten the relentless nastyness.

But then I watched series one last week and I have to say they've fixed a few of the problems. The children being wedded off for a start are older, (even the ones they claim are younger)

Cheers, Greg.

For me Tyroin is the comic relief. His quick wit and sarcasim always has me laughing. Especially when he makes digs at his family or those who threaten him.

As for the age of the children and when people are getting married or conaumating the marrige again you have to look at the time period this is supposed be set in. By todays standards and in most modern cultures ya marrige amd sex by that age would be crazy. BUT back in midevil times that was very normal! Females " flowered" at a much more normal age then( their society was not plagued by live stock and food that had been pumped up with hormones and such causeing females to start getting visits from aunt flow by the age of 8) and even back during the colonial days a man had his own land and was often married with a family before he was 20. It was not unheard of for arranged marriges to happen between one canidate who was already 10 and an infant with the understanding that nothing intimate would happen till the infant came of age. Back then puberty was considered coming of age. To read a series that has a time period with a midevil influence and expect the harecters to be in sync with todays standar of whats acceptable at what ages i think is naive. IMO. As far as the show aging up every one that had been mentioned in another thread on here about the show where it was pozinted out the moat likley reasons that it was done. how it would be hard and unrealistic to try and stick to the books age range for multiple reasons. Most authora i would guess when writting their books or series i dont think consider " what it they make my book into a show/ movie" and there for dont write to try and accomidate of how their writting could also play on film. How ever with the current trend it seems that books being made into shows and tv is becoming more common then before and more frequent, maybe some authors will start taking that into onsideration? Plus its also common in hollywood to cast actors and actresses who in reality are older then the ppl they play. Anyways thats jzust my two cents. To each their own. Personally i love the series and it is very hard for me to get hooked and keep with any book never mind an entire series and baby im hooked!

 

[The Imp]

With all due respect to the people who are complaining, and without wanting to sound snide, if you don't like the books, or if you don't like that your favorite character has been killed off, or if you don't like the amount of time between books, or GRRM's hat, or the color of Dany's eyes, etc. etc. etc stop reading the series.

To paraphrade Abraham Lincoln-

"You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time."

 

[Clansman]

With all due respect to the people who are complaining, and without wanting to sound snide, if you don't like the books, or if you don't like that your favorite character has been killed off, or if you don't like the amount of time between books, or GRRM's hat, or the color of Dany's eyes, etc. etc. etc stop reading the series.

To paraphrade Abraham Lincoln-

"You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time."

I am not a GRRM fanboy, but I love reading this series. This said, I think he could have done better in a number of aspects (series bloat to name one, though I believe he has this under control now). And no, I did not like the time between books. The delays in this series lie squarely at the feet of GRRM and no one else on this planet. But that is a topic for another thread. I am not going to stop reading.

Given the number of thoughtful posts you have made, Imp, I am quite frankly surprised at this one. Not cool at all.

Imp, I don't think people are complaining in this thread, they are offering up a work of art for legitimate criticism. Not everyone worships GRRM as the greatest writer of his generation as some do, and making an honest criticism is not complaining. It is pointing out something about the art that, from the perspective of the critic, is somehow lacking, or could be improved.

I am afraid that you did sound snide, especially with the bit about GRRM's hat and Dany's eyes, and despite your statement, the snideness seemed quite purposeful. Your tone was definitely exasperated, and disrespectful of those who would dare to criticize GRRM. We don't meet on this forum to praise the greatness of GRRM, but to talk about his books, and the point of this thread is to discuss a legitimate concern with the work, which has been echoed by several long-time members of the Chrons.

I would ask that you simply defend your position about the series, instead of telling people who don't share your view to stop reading it. That sort of statement is not helpful, nor does it encourage an open and honest debate about the merits of GRRM's writing. Regardless of one's opinion, A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the seminal works of modern fantasy, and if one cares about this genre as a whole, ASoIaF is a series that one should read to understand some of Fantasy's major trends.

Defend GRRM all you want, but kindly refrain from telling people whose opinions you don't share to, in effect, p*** off. I come here to enjoy the comments of other people and to respond, I hope, in a thoughtful manner that sparks a good debate. If a person cannot respond in a meaningful way to criticism they don't like in a polite and thoughtful manner, then they should not respond.

I will refrain from using the obvious Harry S. Truman quote.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Regardless of one's opinion, A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the seminal works of modern fantasy, and if one cares about this genre as a whole, ASoIaF is a series that one should read to understand some of Fantasy's major trends.


I think there's a really interesting point there, Clansman, about why read it if it's not really your cup of tea. I'm trying to write a book someone might be interested enough to read. Preferably so much, they'd read another. And to do that, i kind of need to look at how others have done it. Hence GRRM is a bestseller in a related field to where I'm writing, and I picked it up partly to crib. And enjoyed it more than I expected, I'll openly admit.
This particular forum does have a fair subsection of aspiring writers and the beauty of it is all the subsections interlink and can support each other as part of the wider community.

Incidentally, I got a lot of crib notes.

 

[The Imp]

I am not a GRRM fanboy, but I love reading this series. This said, I think he could have done better in a number of aspects (series bloat to name one, though I believe he has this under control now). And no, I did not like the time between books. The delays in this series lie squarely at the feet of GRRM and no one else on this planet. But that is a topic for another thread. I am not going to stop reading.

Given the number of thoughtful posts you have made, Imp, I am quite frankly surprised at this one. Not cool at all.

Imp, I don't think people are complaining in this thread, they are offering up a work of art for legitimate criticism. Not everyone worships GRRM as the greatest writer of his generation as some do, and making an honest criticism is not complaining. It is pointing out something about the art that, from the perspective of the critic, is somehow lacking, or could be improved.

I am afraid that you did sound snide, especially with the bit about GRRM's hat and Dany's eyes, and despite your statement, the snideness seemed quite purposeful. Your tone was definitely exasperated, and disrespectful of those who would dare to criticize GRRM. We don't meet on this forum to praise the greatness of GRRM, but to talk about his books, and the point of this thread is to discuss a legitimate concern with the work, which has been echoed by several long-time members of the Chrons.

I would ask that you simply defend your position about the series, instead of telling people who don't share your view to stop reading it. That sort of statement is not helpful, nor does it encourage an open and honest debate about the merits of GRRM's writing. Regardless of one's opinion, A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the seminal works of modern fantasy, and if one cares about this genre as a whole, ASoIaF is a series that one should read to understand some of Fantasy's major trends.

Defend GRRM all you want, but kindly refrain from telling people whose opinions you don't share to, in effect, p*** off. I come here to enjoy the comments of other people and to respond, I hope, in a thoughtful manner that sparks a good debate. If a person cannot respond in a meaningful way to criticism they don't like in a polite and thoughtful manner, then they should not respond.

I will refrain from using the obvious Harry S. Truman quote.

I didn't insult anyone and I certainly didn't tell anyone to "piss off". I gave my view of the OP in a concise manner, and I didn't sugar-coat it. Maybe I''ve just gotten too sick of the da driven BS that permeates every aspect of our lives now, and as a result I'm not as patient as I once would have been or could have been when responded, but I stand by what I said. When a new poster comes to a board such as this one and their main point is this

Again, I was wrong. GRRM managed to kill Jory, Ser Rodrick, Maester Luwin, destroyed Winterfell, killed too many of the direwolves, killed Robb, Grey Wind and Catelyn, pulverized what remained of the northmen army and any chance the north had with it. Now, we are left with the Stark children and Jon for the rest of the series, if we still want to root for the Starks. And honestly, even if they win in the end, what of it? What will be left for them?

So there you have it. No reason to keep reading.

my question is immediately why bother going out of your way to come to this board to complain about a series that you're going to stop reading? There are boards out there devoted entirely to complaining about GRRM this isn't one of them.

I stated my opinion, something I'm entitled to do. I post here and on many other Song of Ice and Fire forums, and I've read countless posts written by people who disagreed with GRRM's writing style, habits, story sprawl, etc. I've never insulted anyone here or anyone else whom i didn't agree with, but again, my opinion is, if someone has given upon the series, why bother coming here? What's the agenda? Some might call it trolling.

And BTW, if you want to get riled up about something, how about the title of the thread which is a HUGE spoiler for any newbie that wanders in here.

 

[allmywires]

I stated my opinion, something I'm entitled to do.

And so have we, yet you made a post that, put simply, implied that we should kindly stop our conversation because of it.

You do have a point about the OP, and it is curious that they should come here just to post about this polarising topic, but for readers such as myself who come across nothing but glazed-eyed adulation for GRRM wherever they go, I thought it would be a place where I could air my own personal frustrations at the series.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think it's testament to GRRM's writing that he can engage so many people with ASoFaI - both those who like it, and dislike it.

However, the complaints are ones we've already seen here at chronicles at various times, so there's nothing new there.

I would urge people to be a little more restrained when discussing these complaints, though - no need for anyone to feel offended, or defensive.

 

[The Imp]

And so have we, yet you made a post that, put simply, implied that we should kindly stop our conversation because of it.

You do have a point about the OP, and it is curious that they should come here just to post about this polarising topic, but for readers such as myself who come across nothing but glazed-eyed adulation for GRRM wherever they go, I thought it would be a place where I could air my own personal frustrations at the serious.

I never said that and if I cam across that way it wasn't my intent

I'll re-state my opinion. I'm not interested in talking about how TRW led to the OP feeling as if GRRM "ruined the series" for him/her. The majority of people who have read this series think that aSoS is the best of the 5 books, and I suspect that TRW is one of the things that contributes to that opinion. The OP disagrees. i disagree with the OP.

I'll leave it at that and not participate in this thread anymore.

 

[Eulalia]

I respectfully disagree that GRRM killed too many good characters. I find it refreshing, surprising, "truthful", well set up, and needful to the plot.

I respectfully point out that this series is inspired by the Wars of the Roses and includes many dark (and reasonalby invocative) historical scenarios. It is written by a conscientious objecter--to the Viet Nam war. I object to being labelled glaze eyed, (hardly) because I enjoy grey characters and the dark side of wars, because I see that as more complex, touching, satisfying and truthful.

It is a little like going for sushi, then, and complaining that the fish is raw! This series is dark. This series is nuanced. This series is informed by "real" history. If you want lighter fare, or Mary Sue characters--why read it, indeed. (and take a pass on biographies and politics) Now you know. The fish is raw. A lot of us like it that way. It is not a crime not to like it, however.

I also happen to like the prose, the poetic discriptions of setting, the character developments, the wit, the cliff hangers and even the easter eggs.

Not that I mind meringue sometimes. But if you want meringue or black and white characters, or relentlessly happy endings, you would be looking in the wrong place. The TV series, now, has some gratuitous sex to inform, titillate and move things along. If you don't like that kind of spice, well, don't watch that either. I don't understand why you would. What is wrong with that proposition?

 

[Ursa major]

I'm not sure we should be telling people not to read books; if they don't want to do so, they won't need anyone's encouragement. The reading of any book (or the watching of any TV show) is not a proto-cult that only permits the most devoted to breath the novel's name, let alone view the contents.

And we shouldn't be so defensive of what we like that we seek to chase off those who disagree. No work of art is perfect, particularly something as complex as a novel, let alone a series of very long books. There are things to like and dislike; our opinion of the books depends on the balance we see in them.


Now if the OP had come here and made a pronouncement that ASoIaF is rubbish - which they didn't - and gave no explanation of why they felt that way, that would be trolling. That the OP provided something we can discuss - and perhaps should be discussing - couldn't be further from that. (Let's face it, if this board only contained people more or less violently agreeing with each other, it would be a much poorer place. And very dull.)


So can we please return to the merits, or otherwise, of ASoIaF, and refrain from "discussing" other people posting here and what we think they ought to be doing.

 

[Warren_Paul]

I'll re-state my opinion. I'm not interested in talking about how TRW led to the OP feeling as if GRRM "ruined the series" for him/her. The majority of people who have read this series think that aSoS is the best of the 5 books, and I suspect that TRW is one of the things that contributes to that opinion. The OP disagrees. i disagree with the OP.

I'll leave it at that and not participate in this thread anymore.

I was suspicious of that first OP - it didn't sound constructive to me - hence my low-key sarcasm. But really, there are people who are going to love the books, and people who are going to hate them. Nothing wrong with falling into the latter, but people must be aware that if you do, you're unfortunately in the minority. So many people are going to take the opposite side of the fence that it may come across as being defensive and just bashing the guy who isn't a "GRRM fanboy". I don't think anyone intends to start a fight over it - I think.

My suggestion was the same as The Imp, if you don't like it, then don't read it. No point reading a story you are not enjoying, that's just torture. I would love to say it gets better, but considering the reason the OP was reading the books, I'm afraid for him/her it won't be getting better - so why read it? I believe the first post shows that the OP has already decided not to continue reading anyway.

 

[Tywin]

For the record, I do hate the hat that GRR Martin always seems to wear in his photos.