GRRM ruined a song of ice and fire by killing too many good characters

[Ursa major]

I don't mind the hat, but I've become so used to seeing only pictures with GRRM wearing it that it came as a bit of a surprise, at Eastercon, to see him not wearing it sometimes.

 

[HareBrain]

if you don't like it, then don't read it. No point reading a story you are not enjoying, that's just torture.

But I think that giving up on a long story part-way through, one that you initially thought very highly of, is painful; and I think trying to work out what (if anything) went wrong, and whether others feel the same, is legitimate. Feelings of disappointment are bound to run higher than with a single one-off book that a reader thought they might enjoy and didn't.

(Not that I have given up on it yet, and I'll buy the next book on the day of its publication, albeit with reduced expectations. But I understand why some people have.)

 

[Jo Zebedee]

That's me in a nutshell, HB. I will buy the next one (I'll probably skim it again, but that's my choice as a reader), and see it to the end. And there are some scenes I'll read again, and say what did he do right there.... and hope to learn from it.
But I'll also ask where did he go wrong? In my perception, because that's possibly even more important....

 

[Warren_Paul]

But I think that giving up on a long story part-way through, one that you initially thought very highly of, is painful; and I think trying to work out what (if anything) went wrong, and whether others feel the same, is legitimate. Feelings of disappointment are bound to run higher than with a single one-off book that a reader thought they might enjoy and didn't.

(Not that I have given up on it yet, and I'll buy the next book on the day of its publication, albeit with reduced expectations. But I understand why some people have.)

If you're still reading, then there must be something you enjoy about it that keeps you going?

I agree with what you're saying, but I also wonder when does it change from trying to figure out what went wrong to just complaining about why you don't like it? And that's not directed at you HB - Clearly the majority of people are discussing the good and bad points, and that's cool.

EDIT: my point was that if somebody is just complaining about it, then I don't think it's the book for them.

 

[The Imp]

Could the name of this thread be changed by a mod please, so someone new doesn't get way more information than they need?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Are you asking for a spoiler warning in the title? (If so, glad to oblige, though it hardly seems necessary, since the subject matter is pretty obvious.) Or do you think the title gives too much away? (In that case, all of the GRRM fans who tell their friends they should read the books because so many "good" characters die should stop handing out spoilers.)

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think it's well known by now that the series has a a significant mortality rate - there's a clear spoiler warning in the opening post, though.

 

[The Imp]

Are you asking for a spoiler warning in the title? (If so, glad to oblige, though it hardly seems necessary, since the subject matter is pretty obvious.) Or do you think the title gives too much away? (In that case, all of the GRRM fans who tell their friends they should read the books because so many "good" characters die should stop handing out spoilers.)

The latter, and while it may be the case that some fans of the series give out that information, the fact remains that a completel noob to the series would be given far more info than needed if they read that thread title. If the title were changed to something like "GRRM Runined the series for me" SPOILERS, the same discussion could and would ensue, but without ruining even just one person's experience.

thanks

 

[The Imp]

I think it's well known by now that the series has a a significant mortality rate - there's a clear spoiler warning in the opening post, though.

Believe it or not, there are people who haven't heard of the series. I was just talking to one of my wife's students, a freshman at her college, and he had only heard of the TV show, but didn't know anything about it. He's since started reading the series btw

I admit that it's becoming more and more difficult to ensure that new readers have a "pristine" experience, I feel that it's our obligation to at least make sure that any "bad" information they get here is kept to a bare minimum. As I said in my previous post, it would be easy enough to change to title so that the OP's point comes across, but the reader has to actually read the body of the post to find out why they felt their experience was ruined.

 

[joaomadeira1000]

SPOILERS BELOW!!!

I found this an interesting thread. Not least because I feel the same as some of the others on here (and no, not those others!!)

I read GoT and loved it, Ned's death shocked me, as did Bran's fall. I thought, 'Wow!, this guy is writing something really different'. I liked that the main characters didn't have everything go their way. So I got book 2, read it, enjoyed it, then got book 3 (both books in one) and started reading it. But when Jon and Cat died I was suddenly very bored. I had discovered GRRM's style, which was, at that point, lets have our heros look like they are about to succeed and then kill them. Jon's death bothered me more because Arya was about to get to her Mum and then everyone died. It sort of began to get boring, so I stopped reading. Anyway a few months later I went back to book 3 and finished it, but then decided not to get AFFC and stopped there.
But last weekend I got the TV series and loved it, and now I'm thinking I might read on just to see what happens. I wouldn't say GRRM ruined the series, but I think by the third book the shock of a writer killing off his heroes, and making sure things don't work out for them had worn off. If anything I want to see them survive and prosper, but in his interview he said the end of the last book will be one big graveyard with a cold wind blowing across it, so now I expect he'll just kill everyone.

The change in characters, from evil to good (Tywin and Jaime) has been very interesting, and I'm yet to read Arya go the other way, but I expect (from hints above) that she might. It is refreshing to read something so un-hollywood, where the heroes don't win everything, and it means that we, as readers, can't read any situation and think 'oh, he'll be fine, he's a good guy.' which is good, but I got bored in the middle of book three, and only the TV series has re-ignited my interest.

This was my first original post on this forum. And I was pretty sure many people would misunderstand what I meant. It is probably my fault, I know!

When i titled "GRRM ruined a song of ice and fire by killing too many good characters", I did NOT mean that GRRM killed off my favorite character and I was sad, so I didn't like it anymore.

I know aSoIaF is grim. I like grim and realistic. I felt in my heart when Ned died, but loved that it happened. So you see, that is not my issue.

My opinion is that the subsequent deaths in aSoIaF were not "refreshing" and "surprising". They were a cheap and shameless shot at keeping things "refrehing", and took away half of what made me love the series. Now, this is my issue.

I think that if you're an author and you want to kill a protagonist for the sake of the story, that is great. But my general feeling is that Robb and Cat's deaths were too much. Was it "refreshing", "surprising" and "realistic"? No doubt, I agree. But so was Ned's death, though it just made me more interested in the series and the fate of the Starks. Not the case with Robb and Cat. I simply don't care about the Starks X Lannisters anymore. Now its about Jon and Dany. That would be ok, but if feels like half aSoIaF. GRRM threw away the other half. That is just my opinion!

For those who said the deaths in the books are realistic and surprising, I have to disagree entirely. When I read Game of Thrones, it became evident to me that Daenery would be invincible, at least until she got her army and brought the fight to Westeros. Like I said, I just finished book 3, and damn if every battle she was involved so far wasn't boring and predictable.

I'll just sum up: I started loving aSoIaF because of its two parallel plots: Starks Vs. Lanisters and the Realm Vs. the Others (Dany's was only a subplot, to become important when she finally came to Westeros). GRRM simply wasted the first by screwing up the Starks. Now its all about Jon and Dany. For those of you who still fing aSoIaF just as interesting as it was before the Red Wedding, that is good. I don't mean to be sarcastic, I really, really wish I could feel the same.

 

[The Imp]

This was my first original post on this forum. And I was pretty sure many people would misunderstand what I meant. It is probably my fault, I know!
When i titled "GRRM ruined a song of ice and fire by killing too many good characters", I did NOT mean that GRRM killed off my favorite character and I was sad, so I didn't like it anymore.

I found that to be clear enough.

I know aSoIaF is grim. I like grim and realistic. I felt in my heart when Ned died, but loved that it happened. So you see, that is not my issue.

My opinion is that the subsequent deaths in aSoIaF were not "refreshing" and "surprising". They were a cheap and shameless shot at keeping things "refrehing", and took away half of what made me love the series. Now, this is my issue.

TRW wasn't intended to be "refreshing". Maybe you can call Joffrey's death refreshing; it was certainly welcome, but not "surprising"? I realize that there were tons of clues, foreshadowings, etc that made TRW very obvious when I read the book for the second time, but the first time? I was affected physically. I felt weak enough so that I had to sit down and kind of collect myself. I say this without exaggeration- I was more shocked ny TRW than when I got a call at 3 Am that my mother had passed away. i know of almost no one that wasn't blown away by TRW. maybe you saw it coming, which is certainly possible, but for most of us, it was like getting hit in the stomach by Gregor Clegane's mailed fist.

I think that if you're an author and you want to kill a protagonist for the sake of the story, that is great. But my general feeling is that Robb and Cat's deaths were too much. Was it "refreshing", "surprising" and "realistic"? No doubt, I agree. But so was Ned's death, though it just made me more interested in the series and the fate of the Starks.

I'm kind of losing track of what's "refreshing, realistic and surprising"

Not the case with Robb and Cat. I simply don't care about the Starks X Lannisters anymore. Now its about Jon and Dany. That would be ok, but if feels like half aSoIaF. GRRM threw away the other half. That is just my opinion!

At the end of aSoS, there are still 4 of the Stark children left alive, plus Jon Snow. I could make the argument that GRRM just "weeded the garden" and left the really strong "flowers" to grow.

For those who said the deaths in the books are realistic and surprising, I have to disagree entirely. When I read Game of Thrones, it became evident to me that Daenery would be invincible, at least until she got her army and brought the fight to Westeros. Like I said, I just finished book 3, and damn if every battle she was involved so far wasn't boring and predictable.

The way she won Meereen was predictable? her screwing of the Good Masters was predictable? The House of the Undying was predictable?

I'll just sum up: I started loving aSoIaF because of its two parallel plots: Starks Vs. Lanisters and the Realm Vs. the Others (Dany's was only a subplot, to become important when she finally came to Westeros). GRRM simply wasted the first by screwing up the Starks. Now its all about Jon and Dany. For those of you who still fing aSoIaF just as interesting as it was before the Red Wedding, that is good. I don't mean to be sarcastic, I really, really wish I could feel the same.

All I can say is that I disagree. I think you might feel differently if you continued with the series, but i obviously won't give you any spoilers, unless of course, you want them. If you want to discuss this via PM and have me give you selective spoilers based on questions you might have, i'd be happy to do so. In any event, it's your decision, and if you feel as if you want to cut your losses so be it.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Well I think firstly in the spirit of the chrons; welcome and a thought provoking first post. Um ref TRW I found it interesting - not the most shocking event in literature I've ever read but an ooh moment - lord of the flies got there for me 20 years earlier. But brave for modern fantasy. I certainly didn't find it as coming close to the gut punch of my fathers death - but I'm still reeling from that one 3 years on. But interesting. In a fictional manner. And moving.
I quite like the death count btw - war kills. But its not real life and I found real life an awful lot harder.

 

[Eulalia]

I can understand TRW being a tough read, and if some readers would like a happy end with Robb as the King, okay, it's understandable. I liked Robb and Grey Wind too! It's a matter of taste, afterall. But I think TRW was much more moving as it was.

Imp, I did find TRW refreshing, as I am just so sick of formulas. I just can't read some writers anymore. And I found it surprising, in the sense of being not sure if GRRM was going to follow through with the foreshadowing, and change the usual fantasy fare so much and in the manner that he did it.

I am an avid reader of history, and I enjoy the attention GRRM gives to historical detail and allusions. (with a fantasy spin to keep you guessing). In history, nobody is all good or bad, there is a context for what happens, and almost not endings are completely happy. Things happen like the dinner guests are killed, the heir dies before his time, the king is mad or undeserving, the nobles change sides, women have difficult roles, women might like sex, too, decisions are made for silly reasons, knights are not particularly shiny and may second guess their choices, , governanace may be pragmatic or tedious or unsatisfactory, slavery may be difficult to abolish, on and on like that.

I particularly like that GRRM does not let up on the hardships, choices and dangers of war from many points of view. It is something I wish people were not as inclined to "fantasize" away. What would it be like to be "shock and awed"? What difficult decisions and motivations might soldiers or leaders face? What is courage? What is mercenery? What is civil war like? How much does it all cost? I can see not wanting to read about that, but this series is very much about these things.

Just a thought, but if Robb (who was a teen trying to be honorable with extreme provocation) had solved his difficulties with a few Lady Olenna or Littlefinger skills, how much destruction would have been prevented?

 

[The Imp]

Well I think firstly in the spirit of the chrons; welcome and a thought provoking first post. Um ref TRW I found it interesting - not the most shocking event in literature I've ever read but an ooh moment - lord of the flies got there for me 20 years earlier. But brave for modern fantasy. I certainly didn't find it as coming close to the gut punch of my fathers death - but I'm still reeling from that one 3 years on. But interesting. In a fictional manner. And moving.
I quite like the death count btw - war kills. But its not real life and I found real life an awful lot harder.

In all fairness, my mother was 88 and had been suffering from congestive heart failure off and on for a year.I was expecting the call i got for those reasons.

I never saw TRW coming, although I knew it felt like a bad idea (going into The Twins)

As for TRW itself, once again showed the reader than in theory, no one is safe. eddard's death laid the foundation for that, but TRW was a freaking skyscraper built on that foundation.

Which leads me to think about The Twins, but I won't go there in this thread.

 

[Warren_Paul]

I was quite shocked by TRW, but I wasn't as attached to those particular characters in question compared to others, so I don't think it ruined the series. Except for maybe Greatjon, but scenes in ADWD imply he is actually still alive.

If GRRM really did kill off Jon, then I'll have a problem reading Winds of Winter, but I don't think he did. Same goes for Tyrion, if he was ever killed off before the end of the book I'd frown upon it. I'm not concerned if any characters other than those two die, and I know some will - I've come to expect it with GRRM.

Regardless of the outcome of a certain scene in ADWD, I will still read the last two books though, but just might not enjoy it as much as I thought I would.

If anything is slowly ruining the series, it is the slow decline into padding that started with AFFC and I am afraid to say is still somewhat present in ADWD - although not sure it is as bad, but that might be because it features better characters. Things do happen more in ADWD compared to AFFC, although I found Dany's story kinda meandered for a bit before getting to the point.

 

[Mouse]

Gah! Note to self: don't highlight spoiler text.

 

[Warren_Paul]

That's why you have to highlight it... So it doesn't spoil anything at first read. It's ok Mouse, that scene is very deceptive and we don't know what really went on.

Maybe I should have said don't highlight if you haven't read ADWD.

 

[Mouse]

Ah no worries! I've read a couple of sort-of spoilers on that (again on this forum - I seem to stumble on them!) anyway, so kinda know it's coming.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I was quite shocked by TRW

I saw it come up on chrons before I read it, which was a shame.

However, it did feel somewhat forced to myself - history is full of armies crossing deep and wide rivers. He really didn't need to cross that bridge if he didn't want to, and the whole business felt more like a forced plot point.

I think the converse criticism for the opening poster isn't so much that characters die, as much as that characters don't always stay dead. That undermines the sense of tension if there is no real danger to the most important characters.

 

[viZion]

I think the converse criticism for the opening poster isn't so much that characters die, as much as that characters don't always stay dead. That undermines the sense of tension if there is no real danger to the most important characters.

Hello, Steven Erikson, is that you?