A new theory (I think) about Coldhands (Spoilers up thru ADWD)

[juleska]

Well it's taken me the better part of a day, but I've finally caught up (with only minimal skimming necessary) on the 26-odd pages of the Jon Snow thread that developed in my absence. That thread is so dense with detail and theories it's going to take some time to digest it all, but one of the sidebar discussions in that thread got me thinking about Coldhands.

We know the Wall holds some kind of magic that other places in Westeros don't have, though we don't know the exact origins or nature of that magic. In the JS thread it was postulated that Aemon's life was extended by the Wall's magic, and that Mel commented numerous times about the magic of the Wall.

I am 99% positive that Coldhands is Benjen, I don't see any other reasonable explanation of who it could be, expect perhaps someone from Benjen's party that disappeared. But his behavior towards Sam (friend of Jon's) and towards Bran tells me it is almost certainly Benjen. No big shocker there for most of you.

What puzzles me is why Coldhands is so different from the other wights. It's also been pointed out here in the past that the wights seem to retain some "bit" of the person they once were.

I think Coldhands sticks close to the Wall because Benjen's "bit" that still remains is bigger than most, and the magic of the Wall keeps that "bit" strong. I further think it's possible that under the right conditions, and aided by someone like Mel, this "bit" can gain strength, and grow, and that it could be possible for someone much closer to the Benjen that we knew to be brought back.

That opens up some really interesting possibilities for Jon going north of the Wall, and the potential outcome of the final battle. What if all those wights are just frozen bits of souls that could be brought back to something closer to their original self?

 

[Kharon]

Well it's taken me the better part of a day, but I've finally caught up (with only minimal skimming necessary) on the 26-odd pages of the Jon Snow thread that developed in my absence. That thread is so dense with detail and theories it's going to take some time to digest it all, but one of the sidebar discussions in that thread got me thinking about Coldhands.

We know the Wall holds some kind of magic that other places in Westeros don't have, though we don't know the exact origins or nature of that magic. In the JS thread it was postulated that Aemon's life was extended by the Wall's magic, and that Mel commented numerous times about the magic of the Wall.

I am 99% positive that Coldhands is Benjen, I don't see any other reasonable explanation of who it could be, expect perhaps someone from Benjen's party that disappeared. But his behavior towards Sam (friend of Jon's) and towards Bran tells me it is almost certainly Benjen. No big shocker there for most of you.

What puzzles me is why Coldhands is so different from the other wights. It's also been pointed out here in the past that the wights seem to retain some "bit" of the person they once were.

I think Coldhands sticks close to the Wall because Benjen's "bit" that still remains is bigger than most, and the magic of the Wall keeps that "bit" strong. I further think it's possible that under the right conditions, and aided by someone like Mel, this "bit" can gain strength, and grow, and that it could be possible for someone much closer to the Benjen that we knew to be brought back.

That opens up some really interesting possibilities for Jon going north of the Wall, and the potential outcome of the final battle. What if all those wights are just frozen bits of souls that could be brought back to something closer to their original self?

I totally agree that Benjen is Coldhands, this is the only possible explanation without dragging in a bunch of new characters, what would be a little forced at this part of the story (I mean, it's only a few thousand of pages left)
But it isn't really GRRM's style, to bring up such a jolly ending, like all the wights turn back normal people.
I rather believe, that the children of the forest and Brynden Rivers are responsible for Coldhands' condition

 

[Eulalia]

Maybe Benjen warged into a wight? But then, I suppose, why does he keep his face covered. hmmm

 

[Keebs411]

Crazy crackpot theory!!! Ok guy all tied into the tree network which many believe to be blood raven is in all shapes and forms actually tied down. Cant go anywhere he can only see thru animals trees and such reach out into the minds of others who can have green dreams like j.reed and bran. What if hes been trying to get to bran this entire time. He can see past present future so bloodraven puts the green dream to j. Reed causeing him to see bran in danger thus causing him to go save and help bran. Now in the mean time ben stark has died and become a white walker, but still retaining some of his mind and memory like other white walkers seem to do. So blood raven wargs into WW ben stark and uses him to find bran and lead him to the cave tunnels he is in.( bran wargs into the crow ravwn when hes in the cave and i beleive slightly tapped into the tree network, maybe blood raven can warg too ?) . Anyways if blood raven could do this and infact is controling ben stark perhaps hes covered his face to not scar bran away or cause further confusion. Maybe even though Ww ben is poss being controled he still has enough control of himself to cover his face again to spare bran confusion or fear. Or else im thinking if bens not being controled and is just partnering up all was agreed to keep his face covered to avoid distracting bran from his mission. In all honesty if i saw my lost uncle in WW form i think id be distracted from wat ever my original focus was and bombard the man with who wat and why questions

 

[Boaz]

Okay... I'm going to use the term 'tree watcher' to denote people like Blood Raven and Bran who are plugged into the world wide root.

I seem to remember, in ADWD somewhere, that the Old Gods do not exist... they are just the names for tree watchers like BR and Bran. The tree watchers could communicate with each other and with people at the trees. Osha says, in AGOT, that the wind is the voice of the Old Gods... like BR trying to communicate with Bran.

If that is true, and if BR has turned Benjen into his own personal wight. Then I conclude that THE OTHER is an evil tree watcher. What if the recent appearance of the Others stems from this evil tree watcher creating them?

Just a thought.

 

[juleska]

But it isn't really GRRM's style, to bring up such a jolly ending, like all the wights turn back normal people.

I'm not suggesting that could or would be the ending....for all wights to turn back to their former selves. I'm just wondering why Uncle Coldhands seems to have retained more of his former sentient self than his chilly chums, which in turn makes me wonder if it would be possible to bring someone even partway back from that state. Otherwise, why is he different from any of the others? Seems there has to be a reason.

 

[Boaz]

WARNING! This post contains the single biggest spoiler in A Game of Thrones! Beware!

WARNING! This post also contains the single biggest spoiler in A Dance With Dragons! Beware!

I just reread the Jon chapter in AGOT where he is first recovering from his burns after burning the wight, Othor, in Mormont's chambers. Jon is having terrible nightmares about fighting the undead... but in his dreams, Othor's face is replaced by Eddard's. Was this just a premonition regarding the event of Eddard's public confession?

Or was this a prophetic dream of Coldhands? Eddard cannot be Coldhands because Coldhands used to be in the Night's Watch. But Eddard's face is a Stark face... long and solemn. Jon and Arya both have the Stark look... and so does Benjen. I know Jon knows the difference between Eddard's face and Benjen's, but is this a hint of a Stark face on a wight... meaning Benjen is Coldhands?

Or is it a premonition that Jon himself will become a wight?

 

[Jeroam]

Heh guys, great thread,

first off, the "world wide root", luuuuuv it

I think that the full rules of necromancy in Westeros have yet to be revealed by George. Bran has a chapter where he reflects on the history of the Nightfort and one of old Nan's stories is of the 13th Lord Commander of the Nightswatch who falls in love with some Other/wight/ice demon and has to be put down. Nan makes a point of telling Bran that the 13th was a Stark. I argue, that this is foreshadowing/precedence for the Coldhands modified wight status. It may be a uniquely Stark warg blood magic necromancy resistance ability. Never go full retard.

I also think that Jon's dream of Othor can be explained as just normal child psychology daddy issue separation anxiety recovering from painful injury bad dream. Sometimes George has the characters do normal human things just to mess with us.

The Others as rival treewatcher gang. Maybe, but it would make things lean toward children of the forest and Others as being some sort of long lost cousins. A form of wood elf vs dark elf struggle to control the weirwoods which are really just wifi hotspots to the world wide root.

 

[Boaz]

World Wide Wood might have been better. The Wall is like a Firewall... uh, Icewall, to stop the Others' hacking.

"Sometimes George has the characters do normal human things just to mess with us."

Yes... and the great thing is that he put that in the first book. It's not like he'll make Coldhands a Stark without warning. Many writers start to throw in connections and details that are vitally important, but only after the first book sold well.

 

[endless]

Hi, i agree with this:

I totally agree that Benjen is Coldhands, this is the only possible explanation without dragging in a bunch of new characters, what would be a little forced at this part of the story (I mean, it's only a few thousand of pages left)
But it isn't really GRRM's style, to bring up such a jolly ending, like all the wights turn back normal people.
I rather believe, that the children of the forest and Brynden Rivers are responsible for Coldhands' condition

Benjen as the wight, and also that the children of the forest have something to do with him. Even if the Wall has some power over its surroundings, i found it difficult that it is the reason Coldhands can think anything else than to tear warm human flesh apart. After all, BR may have seen Benjen's utility while he was being attacked by the Others, and may have done some "ancient trick" on him to not let the nature of the wights take not all but only part of him.

 

[Aledan]

When Coldhands save Sam, he call him "brother". Benjen is the name that came to me when I read this chapter. I was sure of it, and I'm still sure.

 

[Liver and Onions]

I agree that is a plausible plotline, but doesn't Coldhands mention that he was killed long ago? Could he be a relative from a distant past to whom something has happened?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I agree that is a plausible plotline, but doesn't Coldhands mention that he was killed long ago? Could he be a relative from a distant past to whom something has happened?

Where does he mention this? I'm not doubting you, I just want to see the context.

If coldhands WAS killed long ago, maybe he is a different relative of brans, the 13th lord comander who fell in love with the ice princess. She magiced him to stay alive forever or something, thus not being full wight.

just a thought

 

[Jeroam]

A couple more clues on Coldhands popped up on a ADwD reread.

When they're traveling to the cave the elk dies and they butcher and eat it. When Coldhands kills the elk he says a quiet prayer in a foreign language Bran doesn't understand. That's not a Stark tradition, or did I miss that somewhere? Who else says a prayer over animals before butchering them?

Also Coldhands doesn't say he died long ago. The child of the forest/singer of songs tells Bran that when he's worried about leaving Coldhands outside the cave. When a being who's lifespan is measured in centuries tells you it happened a long time ago, she's not talking about last week, or even last year.

How does Bloodraven get to the cave? Bloodraven and Maester Aemon go to the wall and take the oath together. Later Bloodraven becomes Lord Commander. How does the Lord Commander of the Nightswatch just walk into the woods one day never to return and nobody knows where he went or why?

 

[sieltigre]

Hey new posted, so don't be too rough on me.

I've recently been trawling my way through the GoT and the whole Bran/Children of the Forrest story line has really interested me.

So I've been doing a bit of research on Coldhands, and I came up to a few interesting lines..

As a preface, I personally believe that he must be a member of the nights watch as most people seem to share.

"They killed him long ago" makes me believe that Coldhands cannot be Benjen Stark, as the Children of the Forrest live for so long, "a long time ago" must be longer than the two years ago when Benjen went missing/died.

I think it was Brandon Stark the thirteenth Commander of the Nights Watch.

Now when I did some reading into Old Nans tales, , the thirteenth commander of the nights watch who was erased from history because of his relationship with a woman who is described to be essentially one of the Others "her skin was as cold as ice". She also alludes to the fact that he was a Stark and shared the same name as Bran.

That would one solve the problem of Coldhands becoming a wight (due to his relationship with one of the others) as well as coldhands being dead for some time, as this was during the age of heroes.

But also when Coldhands responds to Bran's question about his history, he replied with "Your monster, Brandon Stark".

Now what happens when instead stating that he the monster of the living Brandon Stark, he is instead stating the name of the living Brandon Stark's monster is Brandon Stark?

So what I'm getting at is that because the thirteenth commander of the Nights Watch is probably called Brandon Stark, and that the current character is called Brandon Stark, the meanings of this sentence could easily be confused.

This could also explain why he could not travel under the wall, but had knowledge of the black gate. He was cursed and effectively an oath breaker in terms of the Nights Watch

 

[Raul]

welcome sieltigre!
looks fine theory by me

 

[juleska]

Welcome to the chrons, sieltigre!

Although I started this thread on the theory that Coldhands is Benjen, I have since been (mostly) swayed. I still like to think of him as Benjen because I'd like to know what happened to Benjen. But the theory you've posited here makes more sense with all the facts.

 

[Russ]

It's been out a while but SPOILERS

Just some quick thoughts with no supporting evidence.
I was reading over this post and thought "Can't greenseers see through time?" and that the children of the foret tell Bran that Coldhands is HIS monster?
Could near-future Tree Bran have seen Benjen (or perhaps Nights King) and changed him into Coldhands as he prayed with his dying breathe at a weirwood? That explains how Coldhands knew where to be to help Sam and Gilly deus ex machina style and why he was so single-minded while guiding Bran to the cave.

At first (for a second then thought better of it because the timing didn't work) the possibility of Coldhands being Jon Snow crossed my mind but there's no evidence of time travel (thank God!) in this series.

Also about the greenseers-viewing through time - the tv directors missed an absolutely GOLDEN opportunity in the first episode of the show. Ned is in the Winterfell Godswood cleaning Ice under the weir wood. He should have looked back at the tree's eyes as a wind blew the leaves. Would have sooooooooo awesome.

 

[Tywin]

Also about the greenseers-viewing through time - the tv directors missed an absolutely GOLDEN opportunity in the first episode of the show. Ned is in the Winterfell Godswood cleaning Ice under the weir wood. He should have looked back at the tree's eyes as a wind blew the leaves. Would have sooooooooo awesome.

Definitely would have been awesome. Probably would have had some issues getting Sean Bean back on the cast for that bit part though.

 

[Russ]

Definitely would have been awesome. Probably would have had some issues getting Sean Bean back on the cast for that bit part though.

Not in the coming season, I mean back in the first. I just started to rematch them and it's one of the early shots. But this isn't the board for this so I'll just leave it at that. Have a good one!