Melony of Asshai

[The Imp]

I was re-reading the chapter where Melisandre is looking for Stannis (AA in her mind) and all she is shown is Snow. in my first read I didn't grasp all of the detail and information we have here

Mel confirms that the interpretation of the flames aren't perfect, and later says reading them is an art. This leads me to beleive that she is going to hacve an AHA moment and realize Stannis is not AA

She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Hints of her past? Was she a slave at some point?

Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Is this a vision of Skaagos, a foreshadowing? If so, it doesn't make me feel great about Rickon's future

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

The following convinces me even more that Jon eventually heeded her warnings. She sees skulls but she doesn't see him dead, only with omens of death all around him

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

What exactly was the price, and is her assessment of her talents accurate?

Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

So Mel and Stannis are still doing the "mattress mambo' and dreams are the whisperings of The Other.

With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use. She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night. She would sooner sit bathed in the ruddy glow of her red lord’s blessed flames, her cheeks flushed by the wash of heat as if by a lover’s kisses. Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour. One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony, she thought. Lot Seven.

While the following has nothing to do with this chapter, wouldn't it be possible (assuming she realizes Jon is AA, not Stannis) that she is given visions of tToJ? Is this how we ultimately find out what happened there, or will it perhaps be through Ned via Bran? And speaking of Bran, this is clearly about Bloodraven and Bran. Are they really the enmies of R'Hllor? And note the smoking blood dripping down her thigh.

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.
The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her.

Transofrming her into what?? Was it Melisandre that was glamoured to look like Jon? Did she sacriifice herself to save him? Did he warg into her and then escape?

this is just fascinating stuff

 

[Needle]

Thanks Imp for starting this post. I for one only have a million or so thoughts on Mel!

Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

She had to have been a slave at some point and really should still be. This is related to a question I have asked before (and got little response to!) ALL of the priests of Rhallor are slaves, yet someone is buying slaves to become priests! Can slaves buy slaves? Doubtful. So WHO is buying them and why?

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

I felt this passage was about Hardhome (is that right?) where the wildlings are in the caves with the old witch women.

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.
The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her.

This is another I questioned recently. I just have to say I trust Bran a whole lot more than I do that Rhallor! I say Rhallor is up to something and it ain't good! So if the Others are connected to Bran and Bloodraven (and I am sure they are!) then the Others are not the big bad they have been made out to be.

 

[The Imp]

Thanks Imp for starting this post. I for one only have a million or so thoughts on Mel!


She had to have been a slave at some point and really should still be. This is related to a question I have asked before (and got little response to!) ALL of the priests of Rhallor are slaves, yet someone is buying slaves to become priests! Can slaves buy slaves? Doubtful. So WHO is buying them and why?


I felt this passage was about Hardhome (is that right?) where the wildlings are in the caves with the old witch women.

This is another I questioned recently. I just have to say I trust Bran a whole lot more than I do that Rhallor! I say Rhallor is up to something and it ain't good! So if the Others are connected to Bran and Bloodraven (and I am sure they are!) then the Others are not the big bad they have been made out to be.

Melisandre might be in the process of being used by R'hllor, but I think her intentions are good. She might not realize R'hllor is evil though (assuming he/she/it is). The thing is though, the evidence we have of The Others right now is that they appear to be evil, and at the very least have bad intentions regarding members of the Night's Watch and the Wildlings in general. I obviously trust bran, but I'm not sure I trust Bloodraven.

 

[Needle]

Melisandre might be in the process of being used by R'hllor, but I think her intentions are good. She might not realize R'hllor is evil though (assuming he/she/it is). The thing is though, the evidence we have of The Others right now is that they appear to be evil, and at the very least have bad intentions regarding members of the Night's Watch and the Wildlings in general. I obviously trust bran, but I'm not sure I trust Bloodraven.

I fully agree that Mel at least believes she is doing good, and as far as I can tell she is, but any God who demands human sacrifice, births shadows to kill people and has slaves for priests is up to no good!

I just don't know what is going on with the Others! They seem so purely evil, but in a story of greys it just doesn't feel right. If they are connected to the Old Gods, maybe it's for lack of a better word, confusion on their part. Sounds crazy but it has been said that the weirwoods can live forever, that the future and the past are all the same to them. Maybe they think people should too!

 

[The Imp]

I fully agree that Mel at least believes she is doing good, and as far as I can tell she is, but any God who demands human sacrifice, births shadows to kill people and has slaves for priests is up to no good!

I just don't know what is going on with the Others! They seem so purely evil, but in a story of greys it just doesn't feel right. If they are connected to the Old Gods, maybe it's for lack of a better word, confusion on their part. Sounds crazy but it has been said that the weirwoods can live forever, that the future and the past are all the same to them. Maybe they think people should too!

i'm not sure the Others are the same as the old gods. Not to derail my own topic, but a really interesting question is whether or not the undead outside the cave that bran is in are guarding the outside or intent on killing them.

I agree that R'hllor's demands don't indicate that there arwe good intentions, but assuming the Others and the old gods are either connected or one and the same, perhaps the Song of ice and Fire will in part be about the unification of the God of Fire and the God of Ice, and that when united they keep each other in check. Gods don't necessarily have to be good, but it's nice when they don't want to wipe everyone out

 

[Stribog]

Well Imp, you might just warm up to my favorite female character just as much as to Varys

First of all, Mellisandre is fire embodied, GRRM went to length giving her appearance reminiscent of the element she wields. But as fire flickers, burns stronger, or dies to the cinder, so does her heart (and her hart is the master of her self, and that is why she is my favored character), and Mel is torn between what she sees in fire, and hers uncertainty of it's meaning.

Her past is still clouded in the books, was she a slave girl named Melony, sold as part of the Lot Seven? Don't know, too many guesses possible relying only on short excerpt you quoted. Will possibly be revealed in the future.

Needle and you gave some good guesses, and we will see how her story goes, but here is something I've been thinking: Jon is slowly turning into Ice embodied, while Mel is (like I mentioned) fashioned in image of Fire. What if it is not A Song of Jon and Dany, but A Song of Jon and Mel? Could it be that this time AA is not Lord of fire AVENGER, but a CONCILIATOR between two opposing elements, as Needle suggests? This appeals to my imagination, as it gives many unsuspected possibilities, and negates most of the valid theories in this forum.

Why would she hear whispers of the Great Other, is she so important, or just extra sensitive? And if so, her role in the future might be much greater than up until now (wishful thinking).

 

[The Imp]

Well Imp, you might just warm up to my favorite female character just as much as to Varys

First of all, Mellisandre is fire embodied, GRRM went to length giving her appearance reminiscent of the element she wields. But as fire flickers, burns stronger, or dies to the cinder, so does her heart (and her hart is the master of her self, and that is why she is my favored character), and Mel is torn between what she sees in fire, and hers uncertainty of it's meaning.

Her past is still clouded in the books, was she a slave girl named Melony, sold as part of the Lot Seven? Don't know, too many guesses possible relying only on short excerpt you quoted. Will possibly be revealed in the future.

Needle and you gave some good guesses, and we will see how her story goes, but here is something I've been thinking: Jon is slowly turning into Ice embodied, while Mel is (like I mentioned) fashioned in image of Fire. What if it is not A Song of Jon and Dany, but A Song of Jon and Mel? Could it be that this time AA is not Lord of fire AVENGER, but a CONCILIATOR between two opposing elements, as Needle suggests? This appeals to my imagination, as it gives many unsuspected possibilities, and negates most of the valid theories in this forum.

Why would she hear whispers of the Great Other, is she so important, or just extra sensitive? And if so, her role in the future might be much greater than up until now (wishful thinking).

I'm fascinated by Varys, and the possibilities that still remain for his character might be as important as those of any other character. Possibly a Targ. Possibly a Faceless Man. Possibly working with the Children of the Forest to bring about a unification of Ice and FIre, etc. etc. Which leads to the next point in my response.

I've always thought that the "song" of Ice and Fire is about the two being part of the same thing. I see elements of the idea of Yin-Yang scattered all over the books. I think that Jon is the unifying factor between the STarks and Targs, and I agree that Mel has a great part to play. I think she will reject the idea of Stannis being AA, and will end up sacrificing him (he is, after all, a true King). I think She knows that Jon is AA.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I have a total Love Hate thing going for Mel.

I think she is a Great Character, just not really a great person. Maybe it's just my perception of religion, but I feel like her lord of light is not the kind of god who should be worshipped. Although if the alternative is the White walkers, and whoever their "God" is, then I am truly torn.

one thing I can say for sure about Melissandre, is that she is by far the biggest riddle of the series.

 

[Stribog]

Yeah, my girl is mysterious.

 

[Lofwyr]

Don't have much time to write a big response right now. Finally got to reading ADwD (11 months after release) and allowed myself to come back to these forums ...which then lead to actually reading all the posts in the few major ADwD thread (main one and the 50 page Jon one...yikes).

So I'll start by mentioning a line from ADwD that seems appropriate here. Moqorro tells Victarion that the Drowned God is a servant of the Great Other. Is it possible the 2-sided concept is right but it's not a singular God on each side but Gods? Drowned God + Great Other (+Death?) vs. Old Gods + R'hllor? Or something along those lines.

Just riffing right now. Maybe I'll have something almost half-baked tomorrow.

 

[Tywin]

Is it possible the 2-sided concept is right but it's not a singular God on each side but Gods? Drowned God + Great Other (+Death?) vs. Old Gods + R'hllor? Or something along those lines.

Interesting idea, but probably would want to at least add in the 7 to one of those sides (although theologically the "7" could contain a couple from each side), and maybe others (Horse, Lamb, Harpy, etc).

If we're going to draw these battle lines in accordance with your original example, are we sure that Death falls along the same lines as the Great Other? The 'Others' seem to be connected with death because of their control of 'un-dead', but because of that they also are sort of the opposite of death.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

This is another I questioned recently. I just have to say I trust Bran a whole lot more than I do that Rhallor! I say Rhallor is up to something and it ain't good! So if the Others are connected to Bran and Bloodraven (and I am sure they are!) then the Others are not the big bad they have been made out to be.

I don't thing that Bloodraven and Bran have anything to do with the great Other. I always thought that the Old gods and she Children of the Forest were the enemies of the White Walkers and therefore the "Great Other". I can't see the White walkers, who have been said to hate life and everything that is alive, teaming up with gods who live in trees. There are too many allusions to The Tree of Life and things like that. What I can't figure out is how Coldhands falls into all of this. He's Obviously undead, but he rides a live elk and can talk and is helping Bran. My guess is 3 eyed Crow + [Benjen Stark?] x Magic = Coldhands.

Interesting idea, but probably would want to at least add in the 7 to one of those sides (although theologically the "7" could contain a couple from each side), and maybe others (Horse, Lamb, Harpy, etc).

If we're going to draw these battle lines in accordance with your original example, are we sure that Death falls along the same lines as the Great Other? The 'Others' seem to be connected with death because of their control of 'un-dead', but because of that they also are sort of the opposite of death.

That's true. Both the Dorwned god and the Great Other have elements of reviving or bringing people back from the dead, in various forms. But then again, so does the Red God. (ala Berric Dondarion and lady Stoneheart) the only god I can think of that believes in absolute death is the many faced god that the faceless men believe in, which isn't really its own god, but rather certain aspects of every religion or God. I seem to remember the Kindly Man telling Arya that those who worship the 7 call the many faced god the Stranger and I believe he gives other examples.

 

[Keebs411]

That's true. Both the Dorwned god and the Great Other have elements of reviving or bringing people back from the dead, in various forms. But then again, so does the Red God. (ala Berric Dondarion and lady Stoneheart) the only god I can think of that believes in absolute death is the many faced god that the faceless men believe in, which isn't really its own god, but rather certain aspects of every religion or God. I seem to remember the Kindly Man telling Arya that those who worship the 7 call the many faced god the Stranger and I believe he gives other examples.

i always liked how the Kindly Man explained the MFG to the stranger. How ever in way i feel like the MFG is not absolute in death as well. Granted people who die @ the house of black and white are not reanimated in a zombie like fasion the way the Others, or those who are reannimated by the a red priest of R'hllor. But they do come back in way. Those who come for the gift of death have their faces taken and placed on a wall after all is said and done. Remeber when Arya finally gets her site back they tell her she is ready and bring her down to the room with allt he faces on the wall. She puts one on and can see/feel all the pain and suffering the original owner of the face had lived. So not only does she now become that person face wise but that person who is not tech dead still seems to live on in the face itself, even the experiences of the faces past.

I am not sure the take of the Harpy and some of the other smaller religions. But Most of the larger ones seems to basically revolve around that "nothing stays dead or is "forever gone"

*The children of the forest (old gods)- live on thru the trees and nature ect.
*the drowned god- what is dead may never die
*the others - no explanation needed
*the house of many faces - reuse the faces of those they have killed and those who gave their lives @ the house of black and white
*R'hollor- brings people back too

 

[Needle]

Just throwing out a scary thought to further confuse us all

To paraphrase the kindly man: At the end of the road there is always the Many Faced God. No matter which God you worship, all bow before him.

So what if the only True God is the MFG and all the rest are just magic (people's magic) or total hoowie?

 

[A-roc]

Great topic. Gotta love this forum. This was probably mentioned elsewhere, but Mance had a glowing ruby when he was glamed as the Lord o Bones. Betcha Stannis wouldn't be so quick to hop in the sack with Mel if her ruby necklace was off.

Anyway, Imp, great idea that she sacrifices herself to save Jon once Mel sees the light about AA/Jon. When I reread that chapter I'll look for a glowing ruby like on Mance's cuff. Though that chapter's been dissected so many times. I'm sure it would've been noticed by now. Plus how to explain the POV.

 

[Dunneroo]

"Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again."

With all the theories about Jon Snow out there, I think people are over thinking things. This statement to me is the give away. Mel sees Jon pre-stabbing, then sees him as Ghost when he wargs after dying. Then she sees Jon as a man again, obviously being re-born as AA.

 

[Keebs411]

"Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again."

With all the theories about Jon Snow out there, I think people are over thinking things. This statement to me is the give away. Mel sees Jon pre-stabbing, then sees him as Ghost when he wargs after dying. Then she sees Jon as a man again, obviously being re-born as AA.

I like it. Her visions basically all do become true she just doesnt always interpet and read them right.

I also liked what some one mentioned before about her ruby, and the ruby mance wears as rattleskirt...... i wonder what she would look like with out the ruby. I believe in one of her Pov chapters or jons how it takes alot of magic and focus to make and keep the illusionof mance as rattle skirt. Also i think in one of her own pov chapters she mentions how she almost never sleeps..... i wonder if this has somthing to do with her own ruby? The ruby mance has cleary has somthing to do with the glamour illusion, so why would her own be any different? What would she look like with out it and does she not sleep also because of the focus and consentration that is needed to upkeep her own visual illusion??

 

[Lofwyr]

Interesting idea, but probably would want to at least add in the 7 to one of those sides (although theologically the "7" could contain a couple from each side), and maybe others (Horse, Lamb, Harpy, etc).

If we're going to draw these battle lines in accordance with your original example, are we sure that Death falls along the same lines as the Great Other? The 'Others' seem to be connected with death because of their control of 'un-dead', but because of that they also are sort of the opposite of death.

I considered the 7 and decided to leave them out. I was focusing on the Gods that have shown some degree of influence & magic in the world. Other than the Stranger I don't think the 7 have done anything mystical since Dany's dragons returned. Likewise we haven't seen much of anything from the other Gods/religions of the series (harpy, horse, lamb, etc.).

I'd also still stick with Death as being on the side of The Other (or perhaps is The Other). The rebirth aspect of things seems to apply to all the Gods I mentioned in some fashion. But the Others are the only ones described as hating life.

Tangential question...does anyone know what the diety worshipped in Asshai is?

 

[Dunneroo]

I like it. Her visions basically all do become true she just doesnt always interpet and read them right.

I also liked what some one mentioned before about her ruby, and the ruby mance wears as rattleskirt...... i wonder what she would look like with out the ruby. I believe in one of her Pov chapters or jons how it takes alot of magic and focus to make and keep the illusionof mance as rattle skirt. Also i think in one of her own pov chapters she mentions how she almost never sleeps..... i wonder if this has somthing to do with her own ruby? The ruby mance has cleary has somthing to do with the glamour illusion, so why would her own be any different? What would she look like with out it and does she not sleep also because of the focus and consentration that is needed to upkeep her own visual illusion??

Interesting thought, what if Mel is glamoured herself? If this is true, who might she really be? Any crackpot theories?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I like it. Her visions basically all do become true she just doesnt always interpet and read them right.

I also liked what some one mentioned before about her ruby, and the ruby mance wears as rattleskirt...... i wonder what she would look like with out the ruby. I believe in one of her Pov chapters or jons how it takes alot of magic and focus to make and keep the illusionof mance as rattle skirt. Also i think in one of her own pov chapters she mentions how she almost never sleeps..... i wonder if this has somthing to do with her own ruby? The ruby mance has cleary has somthing to do with the glamour illusion, so why would her own be any different? What would she look like with out it and does she not sleep also because of the focus and consentration that is needed to upkeep her own visual illusion??

She could just be glamoured (if at all) to look prettier, not necessarily to be a whole different person. I wonder if you could glamour an impression. Like, maybe she looks the same, but with the ruby, she glamours the impression of strength or power. interesting thought anyway.

As for the sleeping, while it is mentioned that she doesn't sleep much, she says it is because sleep is like a little bit of death and dreams are messages from the great other. so it's more of a fear of sleeping than anything else.