A Suitable Language

[mithril]

Another quick language/naming related question from me.

I had earlier been struggling with naming various aspects of the culture like names of cities, places, people etc. many of the folks here suggested I figure out a language whose sound/names I like and go from there.

So after a bit of research, I've noticed that I seem to like names of places from Hebrew a lot. Examples - Shinar, Amraphel, Ephra-in, Sicyon, Maktesh, Rhey, Telasear etc

Now my question is that if I pick the city names which have a similar sound, does that mean I have to pick thenames of the people from the same context? What about terms for things like 'province'? Can I use something like 'duchy' which is not hebrew for sure.... So what are the rules for including non-hebrew terms?

The other question is will the reader even recognise that the names sound hebrew like? If not, can I use languages like Arabic, Sanskrit, etc for inspiration as well? I'm suspecting that would get quickly inconsistent...

 

[littlebird]

Consistency is key. If most of your names sound Hebrew, I suggest naming people in a similar way. Go on baby name sights for inspiration.
I think you can get away with names outside of Hebrew but within similar language patterns, like Arabic, if it is used within a province that has a different culture to the Arabic named places. So long as you don't name them European names, I think you are okay.
Personally, I draw inspiration from many languages at once, so that I don't limit myself. The novel I am writing at the moment is generally inspired by Arabic, ancient Greek and Persian sounding names, certain nations favouring one over the other, but not limited by it.

 

[Warren_Paul]

For the sake of authenticity, I'd say have the character names reflect the culture, as well as the city names.

If you have Hebrew town names, yet English character names, I'd wonder what's up with the culture and it might put me off a bit.

 

[mithril]

hmmm... how about if I have hebrew as one of the Ancient languages of the world. So country A could have been ruled by a hebrew speaking royalty in ancient times which got supplanted by a greek/latin speaking one? In such a scenario could we use both english and hebrew and latin root names?

 

[Abernovo]

That might work, mithril. Consider the English language itself, which contains Anglo-Saxon and Romance words side by side. This extends to place names and to personal names.

There is also the chance for outsiders to come into the society - traders even in ancient times would travel to sell their wares, perhaps marry and settle in another country. They leave descendants, names, cultural attributes. Basically who are the neighbours?

 

[Boneman]

hmmm... how about if I have hebrew as one of the Ancient languages of the world. So country A could have been ruled by a hebrew speaking royalty in ancient times which got supplanted by a greek/latin speaking one? In such a scenario could we use both english and hebrew and latin root names?

Absolutely. If they are 'ancient' languages, then you wouldn't necessarily need to have the characters totally reflect it - look at the world today...

 

[David Evil Overlord]

That might work, mithril. Consider the English language itself, which contains Anglo-Saxon and Romance words side by side. This extends to place names and to personal names.

There is also the chance for outsiders to come into the society - traders even in ancient times would travel to sell their wares, perhaps marry and settle in another country. They leave descendants, names, cultural attributes. Basically who are the neighbours?

Do the neighbours bring trade goods, or sharpened steel?

Traders would bring new words for unknown goods ("This wonderous fabric is called silk in our tongue..."), and would probably have to use the native words for known goods ("They call it salt. If I call it salyish, they don't know what it is. Then they see it, call it salt, and laugh at the foreigner who can't talk proper...).

Conquering hordes just tell the conquered to speak the conquerer's tongue and forget their old native tongue, unless they wish to lose their own tongue to a length of sharpened steel.

 

[The Judge]

Conquering hordes just tell the conquered to speak the conquerer's tongue and forget their old native tongue, unless they wish to lose their own tongue to a length of sharpened steel.

Not necessarily. In the Danelaw the Vikings and native English formed a kind of mongrel speech, taking bits from each language, rather than strict Norse being imposed upon everyone. The Normans were also content for the peasants to continue talking in Anglo-Saxon, and the two languages co-existed for many years and eventually bled together to form English, which is why we have posh cuts of meat like beef and sirloin, and cheap cuts like oxtail and ox-tongue -- the one lot coming from Norman French and the other from the peasants. Legal restrictions are important, but so is numerical and economic superiority in the short and long term.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

Not necessarily. In the Danelaw the Vikings and native English formed a kind of mongrel speech, taking bits from each language, rather than strict Norse being imposed upon everyone. The Normans were also content for the peasants to continue talking in Anglo-Saxon, and the two languages co-existed for many years and eventually bled together to form English, which is why we have posh cuts of meat like beef and sirloin, and cheap cuts like oxtail and ox-tongue -- the one lot coming from Norman French and the other from the peasants. Legal restrictions are important, but so is numerical and economic superiority in the short and long term.

While I'm shocked at Your Honour acknowledging factors that may be more important than Legal Restrictions, you do have a point.

I do remember reading a novel some years ago -- science had reached the point where history was no longer taught in schools. Instead, people with no idea of What Really Happened took part in massive Reality Show/Re-enactments. The man playing what he thought was just a bit part (and turned out to be Ghengis Khan) enlisted the aid of a scholar by asking him to record all the details he could of all the cultures he conquered, noting that the process of Empire is quite cruel to the conquered.

I guess in the end, it all boils down to what sort of culture and story Mithril wants to write.

 

[mithril]

Thanks people . I'll go with all 'exotic' languages as inspirations for the ancient in-world languages with different regions of influence. I can always develop an appropriate history of a country/people that validates the kind of concepts and terms I want to add to the standard English equivalent.

 

[Arkose]

A quick question that relates to the use of languages.

With languages that are hard to read, I'm using the Aztec Nahuatl, would it be better to use phonetics?

Example:
Nahuatl: Hueltiuh
Phonetics: We-el-te-wa (no dashes)

Example 2:
Nahuatl: Xipil
Phonetics: She-pe-le (no dashes)

I wouldn't use it very often, just a couple of characters, cities, and land mark names.

 

[mithril]

My vote would be for using phonetics. It's a pain if I can't pronounce the names at all. I do not look forward to having to read through and understand a guide to pronunciation in the appendix/foreword either.

On the other hand, if you are only referring to the ancient city of Xipil once or twice, it might not matter too much...

 

[mtzGr]

A quick question that relates to the use of languages.

With languages that are hard to read, I'm using the Aztec Nahuatl, would it be better to use phonetics?

Example:
Nahuatl: Hueltiuh
Phonetics: We-el-te-wa (no dashes)

Example 2:
Nahuatl: Xipil
Phonetics: She-pe-le (no dashes)

I wouldn't use it very often, just a couple of characters, cities, and land mark names.

I would use the proper spelling, and note the pronunciation of them in the foreward.

 

[Arkose]

Two different thoughts, eh?

I guess I should mention its for a YA, which might effect opinions.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I'd vote for proper spelling, and you don't need to have an academic appendix telling everyone how it should be said. What's the point? Do you think a big part of your demographic will be reading it out?

I've gone through loads of books happily mis-thinking what characters names are, to be a little surprised when I hear the film/tv/radio version and what it actually sounds like in real life.

 

[Abernovo]

I would still stick with the proper spellings. They'll work it out, I suspect, as YAs are much more savvy than some TV producers give them credit for. Even if they get the pronunciation wrong, will it matter?

Heh! VB, I've done that as well.

 

[Arkose]

Thanks for the help. Really helped clear up a small portion of the story.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

One of the Marvel comics (New Mutants) many years ago introduced a Vietnamese character called Xian (IIRC). They solved the pronunciation problem by having her call herself Xian (correct spelling), and all the foreign (to her) characters pronounced it Shan (phonetic spelling).

Don't know if you want to go down that path or not.